The Uyghur and China discussion thread

Derf

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It doesn't matter who the people complaining are.
Yes, it does.
If the people complaining are doing so for political reasons, their complaints have to be taken with a level of suspicion.
Also, if those who complain run their own camps (And they do), they can hardly be said to hold the moral high ground. One question - Why would someone with their own camps complain about someone else's camps?

You simply can't believe stories put up by dodgy politicians and their well paid for servants - That's a lesson we all should have learned from the WMD mess in Iraq.
Like an idiot, I took the Iraq stories as true and didn't question their validity - I won't be doing that again or I could rightly be accused of being silly.
 

HappyMan

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Yes, it does.
If the people complaining are doing so for political reasons, their complaints have to be taken with a level of suspicion.
Also, if those who complain run their own camps (And they do), they can hardly be said to hold the moral high ground. One question - Why would someone with their own camps complain about someone else's camps?

You simply can't believe stories put up by dodgy politicians and their well paid for servants - That's a lesson we all should have learned from the WMD mess in Iraq.
Like an idiot, I took the Iraq stories as true and didn't question their validity - I won't be doing that again or I could rightly be accused of being silly.
I so accuse you. You seem more silly this time, in fact, as you are choosing to believe media created by and with the permission of the CCP while disregarding all other (external) sources.
 

atlantis

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I so accuse you. You seem more silly this time, in fact, as you are choosing to believe media created by and with the permission of the CCP while disregarding all other (external) sources.
Come on HM... you haven't guessed who Derf is? :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 

R Cameron

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The Uyghur and China discussion thread
Thread starter: harryopal Start date: Mar 22, 2021

Derf
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Coincidence, I'm sure!
 

atlantis

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Then we come to frankly pathetic stories I simply don't believe


The woman claims to have been raped by masked men while detained in a camp. My first question is why would they bother with masks?
Next up is why, if they have their pick of detained women, did they settle for an ugly one?
Let's get real, if rapists had their pick, they'd go for a younger, pretty one with a nice body, not a fugly clapped out old cow with facial warts.
Then we come to the leading 'expert,. Adrian Zenz, an ultra evangelical right nut job (who was commanded by God to tell HIS truth about China) with a very clear agenda but sod all experience that actually counts for anything.
His proof is dodgy reports that can't be substantiated, satellite pictures that could be almost anything, and bugger all else.
His 'evidence' is so weak it wouldn't stand up at a Chinese show trial.

That, I will repeat, is NOT to say there isn't something going on, but the best evidence we have is a Iraq WMD type job, and that's not a lot.
This comment is far beyond what is acceptable in this forum.

Knowing the author, the moderation team is unfortunately not surprised. It is misogynistic and offensive to all rape victims.

Furthermore, the words that Derf/Fred has chosen to describe and denigrate this particular rape victim are quite frankly disgusting, and we are dismayed that we have to read them in this forum.

Also, considering that Derf is the second account of a user of this forum, and as we only allow 1 account per user, we have decided to ban this account.

Fred is welcome to post with his original account, although we understand if he is embarrassed to do so, as he has posted some truly cringey stuff with it.

However, this also comes with a warning to never post the sort of comment quoted above again, and failure to do so will result in further moderation action, up to and including permanent termination of forum membership.
 

harryopal

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FAKE NEWS FROM CHINA? Surely not. The ABC has this story today:

China used social media to spread misinformation to discredit western media during pandemic, report finds​


Perhaps Dave7 will now come back to tell us that this is fake news that China is spreading fake news.
 

Dave70

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FAKE NEWS FROM CHINA? Surely not. The ABC has this story today:

China used social media to spread misinformation to discredit western media during pandemic, report finds​


Perhaps Dave7 will now come back to tell us that this is fake news that China is spreading fake news.

I’m back, don’t want to disappoint you harryopal.

Yes, ABC had to remove ‘fake news’ from the title, if you notice.

Original title: China used ‘fake news’ on social platforms to discredit western reports amid pandemic, report finds.

Revised title: China used social media to spread misinformation to discredit western media during pandemic, report finds.

Problem with the original title, if you read it from another angle, China is NOT spreading fake news but discrediting western reports by accusing them of being ‘fake news’. Of course, the writer did not realize this until later. Moreover, the writer cannot prove any Chinese article that is a fake news.

ABC is primarily funded by the Australian government. Australia is one of the four major Anglophone nations which formed an anti-China alliance that is trying to defend their global hegemony from China’s rise. So not surprised at all if ABC is helping to turn public opinion against China.

“No More Xinjiang Lies: Part 1: UN Article 2” is a vlog by Fernando Munoz, an expat from Columbia.



“Ex-Norway MP reveals truth on Nobel Peace Price & Xinjiang” is an interview of Mr. Thore Vestby, former MP of the Norwegian Parliament and Mayor of Frogn. He shares his insight into the Nobel Peace Prize Nomination Process, Hong Kong, Xinjiang, the US-China Conflict, Belt and Road Initiative & Norway-China relations.

 

harryopal

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Now, is Dave70 giving us fake news that China is not disseminating fake news?

It looks like we let the genie out of the bottle again. Anybody else wish to squabble with Dave? I'm out of here
 

HappyMan

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Yes, ABC had to remove ‘fake news’ from the title, if you notice.

Original title: China used ‘fake news’ on social platforms to discredit western reports amid pandemic, report finds.

Revised title: China used social media to spread misinformation to discredit western media during pandemic, report finds.
Why are you trying to make a meal out of a title change? The only difference I can see is that social media is not being graced with the name of "news". For example, I'd describe your post as misinformation, not because I "had to", but because it would be an insult to the profession to call it any sort of "news". Grasping at straws for a chance to copy-paste some more propaganda...
 

harryopal

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ABC news Australia today carries this story:

Australian Yang Hengjun proclaims his innocence after Chinese espionage trial​

Here is an link to the full story:


I anticipate Chinese apologist responses along these lines

Allegation: "... he was tried behind closed doors in Beijing."
Apologist. Doors were closed because of a recent dust storm and to enable a calm and peaceful hearing.

Allegation: "... forced confessions and rough treatment he endured while in detention showed that someone may be "taking revenge" on him."
Apologist. Clearly this is a lie as China's criminal procedure law states: "The use of torture to extract confessions is strictly prohibited, as are threats, enticement, trickery and other illegal methods of gathering evidence; no person may be compelled to prove his own guilt."

Allegation. "Australian diplomatic staff and family members were denied access to the trial.
Apologist. This was due to Australians requesting attendance failing to provide adequate due notice and filling in the appropriate forms.

Allegation. "...current poor bilateral relations may affect the verdict and sentence, which is expected before mid-July but could be delayed."
Apologist. As a sincere and just country China would never allow extraneous matters to influence a court decision. Allegations elsewhere that Australia has been punished with export bans and restrictions over political issues is also another complete untruth

Allegation: "The crime of espionage carries a sentence of anywhere from three years to the death penalty, and the secrecy around the specific offence has left all but those in the courtroom in the dark about a potential sentence."
Apologist: China is an independent country and it is improper to deny it's right to impose whatever judges deem to be a suitable sentence. Many other countries also have the death penalty for espionage so shut up and please be courteous and understanding when discussing internal Chinese affairs.
 

HappyMan

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Allegation. "Australian diplomatic staff and family members were denied access to the trial.
Apologist. This was due to Australians requesting attendance failing to provide adequate due notice and filling in the appropriate forms.
I hadn't seen this case. Thanks for the news. As usual, the lack of transparency makes the whole thing look even worse than it otherwise would. In this case, there is actually a bilateral agreement to allow the attendance of consular officials at trials.

It's the micro version of the Ugyhur situation, isn't it? Either the Chinese gov is treating people like objects on a game board, without respect to their humanity or rights, or the gov is on the up-and-up but failing so badly at transparency that impartial observers have no reason to believe them (considering their past abuses).

This time they can't even call it an internal matter...
 

Dave70

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Chinese authorities have not released any details of the charges against Yang, a novelist who reportedly formerly worked for China’s Ministry of State Security as an intelligence agent.

Yang has denied the accusation against him, and while a conviction is virtually certain, it isn’t clear when the verdict will be handed down. The espionage charge carries penalties ranging from three years in prison to the death penalty.

China’s Foreign Ministry said China was following international practice in barring observers from attending a case involving state secrets.


This time they can't even call it an internal matter...

Of course, he's Australian citizen.
 

Pak Asam Manis

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Something to add (and think about), do you know that the USA is penalizing anyone who visits Xinjiang? Do you remember how upset the USA got when it learned that Disney made part of their film Mulan in Xinjiang? They penalized Disney. The USA forbids anyone to visit Xinjiang. Why? Because they don’t want ordinary Americans to know the truth.
The US government does not have any authority or power to "forbid" US citizens, much less anyone else, from visiting Xinjiang. A ridiculous assertion. The PRC, on the other hand, maintains very and increasingly strict controls over foreigners visiting the two western-most provinces, Tibet A. R. and Xinjiang Uyghur A. R. respectively.
 

Pak Asam Manis

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Dave70: I lived in Xinjiang from August 2010 to June 2011, in the "Wusu Triangle" not far down the highway from Urumuqi, West towards the Kazakh border.

It was not far removed in time from the infamous incidents of July 5th, 2009. Surveillance was notable and noticeable even then, though nothing like it is now (there were CCTV cameras watching the Foreign Experts Building at all times, and our cell phones were bugged / monitored). The Policy of discrimination and "non-encouragement" toward the Uyghurs was whispered and if felt necessary, spelled out to the foreign teachers in subtle and not-so-subtle ways, to the point that we were directly warned not to befriend or have any more-than-superficial contact with them, apart from a professional relationship with Uyghur students in school, where we should treat them equally.

In spite of this prohibition, I did cross the line and get to know Uyghurs personally, and I can tell you straight out that putting "oppressed Uyghurs" in quotation marks is Fake News indeed. The Uyghurs in Xinjiang are in a classic "damned if you do" position: they are told they are Chinese and should "go along to get along" in the Chinese system. When they try to embrace this, they find they are still discriminated, the good jobs and schools and advantagous positions still go to the Han, and / or they get ahead only by "selling out" as similar to collaborators like the Vichy French during WW2, or the Indonesian "aristocrat servant class" under the Dutch. When they are "stubborn" to cling to their religion and actual culture and dress, they are singled out and deemed potential or actual "troublemakers" or outright "terrorists" or "religious extremists" and put in the "re-education" camps or worse.

If you want to drink the CCP propaganda Kool-Aid. good for you. I have been there, I know better. I have friends and former students there who I have not been able to contact for years, and do not know what has happened with them. Everything that's been said here about the CCP and Chinese government's propaganda and physical and mental control over its own citizens is true, including as you yourself have said, "the PRC is a Police State".

I will not argue or debate any of this with you, as it would be a total waste of my time. "Have a nice day."
 

Dave70

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Dave70: I lived in Xinjiang from August 2010 to June 2011, in the "Wusu Triangle" not far down the highway from Urumuqi, West towards the Kazakh border.

It was not far removed in time from the infamous incidents of July 5th, 2009. Surveillance was notable and noticeable even then, though nothing like it is now (there were CCTV cameras watching the Foreign Experts Building at all times, and our cell phones were bugged / monitored). The Policy of discrimination and "non-encouragement" toward the Uyghurs was whispered and if felt necessary, spelled out to the foreign teachers in subtle and not-so-subtle ways, to the point that we were directly warned not to befriend or have any more-than-superficial contact with them, apart from a professional relationship with Uyghur students in school, where we should treat them equally.

In spite of this prohibition, I did cross the line and get to know Uyghurs personally, and I can tell you straight out that putting "oppressed Uyghurs" in quotation marks is Fake News indeed. The Uyghurs in Xinjiang are in a classic "damned if you do" position: they are told they are Chinese and should "go along to get along" in the Chinese system. When they try to embrace this, they find they are still discriminated, the good jobs and schools and advantagous positions still go to the Han, and / or they get ahead only by "selling out" as similar to collaborators like the Vichy French during WW2, or the Indonesian "aristocrat servant class" under the Dutch. When they are "stubborn" to cling to their religion and actual culture and dress, they are singled out and deemed potential or actual "troublemakers" or outright "terrorists" or "religious extremists" and put in the "re-education" camps or worse.

If you want to drink the CCP propaganda Kool-Aid. good for you. I have been there, I know better. I have friends and former students there who I have not been able to contact for years, and do not know what has happened with them. Everything that's been said here about the CCP and Chinese government's propaganda and physical and mental control over its own citizens is true, including as you yourself have said, "the PRC is a Police State".

I will not argue or debate any of this with you, as it would be a total waste of my time. "Have a nice day."

10 years ago was a long time ago, especially for fast-changing China. A lot have changed since then, including the dramatic improvements in the life of the Uyghurs.
 

harryopal

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10 years ago was a long time ago, especially for fast-changing China. A lot have changed since then, including the dramatic improvements in the life of the Uyghurs.
You mean after having been brainwashed in the supposedly voluntary re-education camps surrounded by barbed wire?
 

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