The Uyghur and China discussion thread

WillieGibbs

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China Daily is an English-language daily newspaper owned by the Publicity Department of the Chinese Communist Party.
 

Dave70

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Allegations that China persecuted the Uyghur ethnic minority, banned their language in schools and disallowed their religious practices and festivities, are all FALSE.

It is absolutely true that all Chinese ethnic minorities do not have equal rights, instead they have MORE rights. For example, the one-child policy do not apply to ethnic minorities, university entrance requirements are lower for ethnic minorities, they also have priority in many government job postings etc.

Ethnic languages are not only preserved, they are compulsory up to grade 9, and contrary to MSM broadcasts, the official spoken dialect (Mandarin) is optional in these autonomous regions. The best proof: the elderly could hardly speak any Mandarin and they use their own language 100% of the time when conversing between themselves.

Religious and cultural practices can be done freely and are in fact encouraged. Of course, those activists using religion to promote hatred and violence towards others are dealt with strictly in the courts and prosecuted to the fullest allowed by law.

In stark contrast, we can compare the history of the West (both Canadian and US governments) in their treatment of indigenous people which had been brutally inhumane, even genocidal as some scholars call it today.

From the very beginning since the white settlers set foot onto the Americas, their perceived superior civilization clashed with the untamed world of the natives, they treated the indigenous people as if they were sub-humans, grabbed their lands, forced them into remote areas, and even hunted them down like animals. Later on, they called these remote areas “Indian Reservation Areas” and the governments’ subsequent policies were designed to keep them within these areas; provided them with minimum welfare money and supplied them with abundant alcohol and tobacco. This was basically, an “out of sight, out of mind” policy which eventually led to the lawlessness in these reserves, and this went on for years and years without getting any meaningful support from the government. In recent years in these reserves, the problems of rape, murder, incest and drugs became so rampant that a recently concluded inquiry revealed that the governments’ treatments of these people were in fact, a form of genocide.

In view of these shameful facts, don’t you agree that these so called Indian Reservation Areas more resemble concentration camps than the vocational schools in China? It is said that Adolf Hitler even built the Nazi concentration camp on the inspiration of the American Indian Reservation model. How on earth could the West keep on pointing their bloody fingers at anybody else about human rights? Next time before you accuse any other country of violating human rights, please take a look in the mirror first.

For those of you interested in knowing more about this, I provided some links below:

1. New York Times: Canadian Inquiry calls Killings of Indigenous Women Genocide

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/03/world/canada/canada-indigenous-genocide.html

2. With regard to the Nazi concentration camps, it is said that Hitler got his inspiration from the American Indian Reserves model.

https://newsmaven.io/indiancountryt...an-reservation-system-V3MQ5A4QjU2GDXxTL980_w/

3. Ten Atrocities Committed against Native Americans in Recent History

https://listverse.com/2015/04/30/10-atrocities-committed-against-native-americans-in-recent-history/

4. Canadian Indian Residential Schools

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system
 

HappyMan

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Pak Tani, you are spreading misinformation. The fake news was DEBUNKED more than 2 months ago.
To refute Pakistan Tani's sources, you just linked us an article from a newspaper, China Daily, literally managed by the Propaganda Department of the CPC and another article whose publication "is run by the International Department of the CPC Central Committee together with BEIJING REVIEW." (Quote from their own website.)

Do you have any international sources that aren't a guy and his dog on YouTube or 44 years old?
 

HappyMan

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Allegations that China persecuted the Uyghur ethnic minority, banned their language in schools and disallowed their religious practices and festivities, are all FALSE.

It is absolutely true that all Chinese ethnic minorities do not have equal rights, instead they have MORE rights. For example, the one-child policy do not apply to ethnic minorities, university entrance requirements are lower for ethnic minorities, they also have priority in many government job postings etc.

Ethnic languages are not only preserved, they are compulsory up to grade 9, and contrary to MSM broadcasts, the official spoken dialect (Mandarin) is optional in these autonomous regions. The best proof: the elderly could hardly speak any Mandarin and they use their own language 100% of the time when conversing between themselves.

Religious and cultural practices can be done freely and are in fact encouraged. Of course, those activists using religion to promote hatred and violence towards others are dealt with strictly in the courts and prosecuted to the fullest allowed by law.

In stark contrast, we can compare the history of the West (both Canadian and US governments) in their treatment of indigenous people which had been brutally inhumane, even genocidal as some scholars call it today.

From the very beginning since the white settlers set foot onto the Americas, their perceived superior civilization clashed with the untamed world of the natives, they treated the indigenous people as if they were sub-humans, grabbed their lands, forced them into remote areas, and even hunted them down like animals. Later on, they called these remote areas “Indian Reservation Areas” and the governments’ subsequent policies were designed to keep them within these areas; provided them with minimum welfare money and supplied them with abundant alcohol and tobacco. This was basically, an “out of sight, out of mind” policy which eventually led to the lawlessness in these reserves, and this went on for years and years without getting any meaningful support from the government. In recent years in these reserves, the problems of rape, murder, incest and drugs became so rampant that a recently concluded inquiry revealed that the governments’ treatments of these people were in fact, a form of genocide.

In view of these shameful facts, don’t you agree that these so called Indian Reservation Areas more resemble concentration camps than the vocational schools in China? It is said that Adolf Hitler even built the Nazi concentration camp on the inspiration of the American Indian Reservation model. How on earth could the West keep on pointing their bloody fingers at anybody else about human rights? Next time before you accuse any other country of violating human rights, please take a look in the mirror first.

For those of you interested in knowing more about this, I provided some links below:

1. New York Times: Canadian Inquiry calls Killings of Indigenous Women Genocide

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/03/world/canada/canada-indigenous-genocide.html

2. With regard to the Nazi concentration camps, it is said that Hitler got his inspiration from the American Indian Reserves model.

https://newsmaven.io/indiancountryt...an-reservation-system-V3MQ5A4QjU2GDXxTL980_w/

3. Ten Atrocities Committed against Native Americans in Recent History

https://listverse.com/2015/04/30/10-atrocities-committed-against-native-americans-in-recent-history/

4. Canadian Indian Residential Schools

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system
Did you copy-paste from Quora without referencing the author?
 

HappyMan

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@IndoTom @HappyMan @R Cameron @harryopal

Before we go into the fake “proof” that the West is using against China to accuse China of genocide against the Uyghurs, let us first understand the reasons for the accusations.

In 2006, the US military came up with findings as follows:

The US Quadrennial Defense Review of 2006 stated that China has "the greatest potential of any nation to militarily compete with the US and field disruptive military technologies that over time offset traditional US advantages".

Read page 29 > https://archive.defense.gov/pubs/pdfs/QDR20060203.pdf

Following the above, the US started formulating a containment strategy against China. Obama tried to use the TPP to put China at a disadvantage in trade with TPP member countries. Then Trump put aside the TPP and started the trade war against China.

At the same time that those containment activities were being planned and implemented, Xinjiang was facing attacks from a terrorist organization called Eastern Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM). Thousands of people, including Uyghurs, were killed or maimed by the ETIM terrorists. Until today, ETIM is classified as a terrorist organization by the United Nations.

Then, just a few years ago, China sent its troops into Xinjiang to fight against the ETIM terrorists. Many were captured. Some escaped and mostly went to Turkey and the US, seeking refugee status, claiming to be freedom fighters for the “oppressed Uyghurs” in Xinjiang. A few went to Indonesia, trying to join another terrorist group there, but were caught by the Indonesian authorities and jailed, or sent back to China to face the law.

To ensure that the ETIM terrorists don’t return, China placed a tight security system in Xinjiang, including thousands of surveillance cameras and many roadblocks.

Strangely enough, the US accused China of implementing the surveillance system in order to spy on the Uyghurs in general (not on ETIM), and sanctioned the companies that put the cameras in place. It seems to me that the purpose of these sanctions is to ensure that the surveillance system will fail over a period of time, since the sanctions mean they cannot be replace with new ones when they fail.

Then the US did another strange thing: they removed ETIM from their list of terrorist organizations.

Think about that for a moment: The US blocked maintenance to the surveillance system and removed ETIM from their list of terrorist organizations. Is the US trying to send ETIM back into Xinjiang to cause new disturbances there? Or perhaps support the ETIM terrorists who the US will call “freedom fighters” who want to “liberate Xinjiang” from “China’s oppression”?

It turns out that there is evidence for the above.

Col Lawrence Wilkerson admits to US involvement in fomenting civil unrest in Xinjiang China using Uighurs. The CIA wanted to destabilize China, and intelligence strategists had decided that the best way to do it would be to foment unrest among Uyghurs in Xinjiang to create pressure on Beijing.


So the ETIM attacks were supported by the US after all?

Anyway, if the US were to support a return of ETIM to Xinjiang, then the US needs other countries to agree with it. And one way to do it is to badmouth China as much as possible, until other countries believe that China is oppressing the Uyghurs, and that is where the accusation of genocide and oppression comes in.

There are three reasons why the US wants to control Xinjiang as part of its containment policy towards China.

Firstly, Xinjiang is China’s door to the West. China’s new silk road passes through Xinjiang. If China is no longer in control of Xinjiang, then China’s trade with Central Asia, West Asia and Europe will be badly affected.

Secondly, if China has no control over Xinjiang, then China can no longer get oil from Saudi Arabia and Iran to be brought by land through Pakistan and Xinjiang, to the rest of China. It will have to use the sea route through the Straits of Malacca and the South China Sea to Shanghai. Not only is the distance longer but it is also open to attack from enemies in the case of war.

Thirdly, the Junggar Basin in northern Xinjiang has 8.68 billion tons of oil and 2.5 trillion cubic meters of gas. That’s a significant amount of oil. If Xinjiang is controlled by the US either directly or indirectly, China will not only have difficulty getting oil from the Middle East but will also not be able to extract oil from Xinjiang. Without oil, China’s economy will certainly suffer.

The US is in control of Afghanistan and can send ETIM forces into Xinjiang from Afghanistan.

Now, let us look at their ”proof” of genocide in Xinjiang.

In order to prove genocide, there must be proof of “intent to destroy”. And the proof that the US uses is what New York Times printed a couple of years ago - President Xi, in a speech, said to “arrest those who should be arrested” and “show no mercy”. And the US claim that these statements refer to the Uyghurs in general (not ETIM), thereby meeting the requirement for “intent to destroy”.

This is a lie. Xi’s statement was meant for the ETIM terrorists, not the Uyghurs in general. Anyone who can read Chinese (the original documents were in Chinese) would be able to confirm this.

Secondly, the US used the big drop in Uyghur birth rate as proof of genocide. So let us look at what caused this:

When China imposed the One Child Policy, it was imposed only on the Han Chinese. It did not apply to minority tribes, such as the Uyghur. So the Uyghurs and other minority tribes could continue to have many children.

For the Han Chinese, this measure was part of the fourth definition of genocide, except that it was not intended with “intend to destroy”, so it was not genocide.

The liars in the West try to use Xi’s statements about “arrest them” and “no mercy” to justify calling it an intent to destroy, but anyone who can read Chinese will confirm that those statements were meant for the ETIM terrorists who killed and maimed thousands of people in Xinjiang, including Hans, Uyghurs and other tribes. It was not at all addressed to the general population of Xinjiang, including Uyghurs. Besides, the one child policy was applied to the Han Chinese, not Uyghurs.

Then, many years later, China relaxed the ruling for the Han Chinese by allowing them to have two children. Meanwhile, the Uyghurs could continue to have more children.

Then, in 2017, the Two Child Policy was extended to everyone in China, including the minority tribes, which means including the Uyghurs. With this, China is further away from genocide towards the Han, since the law now applies to everyone.

So now, the Uyghurs (and other minority tribes), mostly with many more children than two, must stop having children in order to comply with the new ruling. Many of them would have started on contraceptives for the first time.

And since most Uyghurs stopped having new babies, the birth rate for Xinjiang dropped significantly.

So what does the West do? They have just found another chance to lie about China. “The big drop in birth rate means Genocide in Xinjiang!”

And that is how the fake accusation of genocide came about.
This is also a copy-paste from Quora... https://www.quora.com/Should-the-Un...r-on-China-in-response-to-the-Uyghur-genocide

Edit: No, it appears to be a copy-paste to Quora, so we are now a reference site for misinformation... Great.
 

R Cameron

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The fake news was DEBUNKED more than 2 months ago.

Chinese state media disputing a report from outside media is not "DEBUNKED".

And that really is the root of the disagreement, and why I have found it unfruitful to engage any further with you. I, and others here, believe western media when there is a broad and diverse consensus, investigative reporting, and leaked source documents. You believe the Chinese state media, period. That is an impasse.
 

Dave70

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To refute Pakistan Tani's sources, you just linked us an article from a newspaper, China Daily, literally managed by the Propaganda Department of the CPC and another article whose publication "is run by the International Department of the CPC Central Committee together with BEIJING REVIEW." (Quote from their own website.)

Do you have any international sources that aren't a guy and his dog on YouTube or 44 years old?

Who else can verify if the story is true or false other than the authorities in China. As I explained, MSM cannot be trusted for their news on China.
 

HappyMan

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Patrick Law provided the material, we are ALL working for the truth, we help each other.
Yeah... I find it easier to believe that you are all the same person or that you are all using the same external and un-named source. I mean, if you respect someone's work, you generally cite them, especially for a huge essay like these.
The easiest way to hide copy-pasting from Google is to change a few words here and there, so maybe later I'll go through the trouble of doing a search while editing a few of the key terms from one of your posts to see what pops up.
 

Dave70

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Chinese state media disputing a report from outside media is not "DEBUNKED".

And that really is the root of the disagreement, and why I have found it unfruitful to engage any further with you. I, and others here, believe western media when there is a broad and diverse consensus, investigative reporting, and leaked source documents. You believe the Chinese state media, period. That is an impasse.

From post #134

If you read post #67, you will understand why I don’t trust MSM news about China. On the other hand, I perfectly understand why you don’t trust Chinese media. What did I do? I read both sides of the story. But 3 factors formed my opinion; 1. Evidence of MSM fake news (see post #69 on contradicting testimonies and the video about CNN’s giant hole of their story). 2. The Organization of Islamic Cooperation findings after their due diligence. 3. My common sense and logic (see post #84).

I believe the Chinese state media AFTER reading both sides of the story. But the 3 factors mentioned above is more IMPORTANT.
 
Last edited:

Dave70

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Yeah... I find it easier to believe that you are all the same person or that you are all using the same external and un-named source. I mean, if you respect someone's work, you generally cite them, especially for a huge essay like these.
The easiest way to hide copy-pasting from Google is to change a few words here and there, so maybe later I'll go through the trouble of doing a search while editing a few of the key terms from one of your posts to see what pops up.

Sure, if you can name them all, then I don't need to "name my sources" anymore.
 

HappyMan

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Anyone got a thought on why my exact-match searches on Google are no longer returning this forum as a result? You should be able to copy a sentence from here, slap quotes around it, and get a result from here.
 

Pak Tani

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Ethnic languages are not only preserved, they are compulsory up to grade 9, and contrary to MSM broadcasts, the official spoken dialect (Mandarin) is optional in these autonomous regions. The best proof: the elderly could hardly speak any Mandarin and they use their own language 100% of the time when conversing between themselves.
201909asia_china_xinjiang_school.jpg

The entrance to the No. 4 High School with a sign that reads "Entering school grounds, please speak Mandarin," left, in Peyzawat, Xinjiang region.© 2018 AP Photo/Ng Han Guan

thediplomat-ap.jpg
In this Aug. 31, 2018, photo, children play outside the entrance to a school ringed with barbed wire, security cameras, and barricades near a sign which reads “Please use the nation’s common language” in Peyzawat, western China’s Xinjiang region. Credit: AP Photo/Ng Han Guan


 

Dave70

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View attachment 1770
The entrance to the No. 4 High School with a sign that reads "Entering school grounds, please speak Mandarin," left, in Peyzawat, Xinjiang region.© 2018 AP Photo/Ng Han Guan

View attachment 1771
In this Aug. 31, 2018, photo, children play outside the entrance to a school ringed with barbed wire, security cameras, and barricades near a sign which reads “Please use the nation’s common language” in Peyzawat, western China’s Xinjiang region. Credit: AP Photo/Ng Han Guan



Pak Tani, all students in Indonesia should also use the nation's common language (Bahasa Indonesia).

Regarding the barbed wire, security cameras and barricades, don't forget there were terrorist attacks in Xinjiang some years ago.
 

Dave70

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The Real Reason Western Media Lies about China​

There are many lies that are told about China, but why is it so hard for Western Media to tell the truth? I first went to China in January 2007, from that moment until now, I've never read or heard a single piece of positive content about China from Western media. Can China really be as bad as Western media wants us to believe?

 

Pak Tani

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Regarding the barbed wire, security cameras and barricades, don't forget there were terrorist attacks in Xinjiang some years ago.
Of course, because schools where Uyghur children go to are primary targets of Uyghur separatists?
 

Dave70

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Of course, because schools where Uyghur children go to are primary targets of Uyghur separatists?

Why do you think Muslims kill Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan? Because there are radicalized Islamists who think their Muslim 'brothers' are not "pure" enough. Besides, who knows if that school has other ethnic groups (either student or teacher)?
 

HappyMan

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Why do you think Muslims kill Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan? Because there are radicalized Islamists who think their Muslim 'brothers' are not "pure" enough. Besides, who knows if that school has other ethnic groups (either student or teacher)?
I see where you are going with this, and I am starting to agree with you. There could be dangerous CIA babies!!! Is the barbed wire to keep them in or out?

Addit: Is this the reference you were planning to use?
 

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