The Uyghur and China discussion thread

Derf

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Pak Tani, you are spreading misinformation. The fake news was DEBUNKED more than 2 months ago.


The Chinese say there has been a massive increase in children attending schools - That being part of a drive to push education, not re-education.

The question is - Who is lying?

Asia news network is a coalition of news services from all over Asia, including Japan and Singapore, the other side of the coin is from is western press with a clear agenda.
I'll leave it up to you to decide.
 

Derf

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how he only hates the other party because they are corrupt and then accepts his own party's corruption with a simple "the other guys are just as bad."
Your point would be valid if I support China, but I do not.
 

Dave70

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The Chinese say there has been a massive increase in children attending schools - That being part of a drive to push education, not re-education.

The question is - Who is lying?

Asia news network is a coalition of news services from all over Asia, including Japan and Singapore, the other side of the coin is from is western press with a clear agenda.
I'll leave it up to you to decide.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your contribution in this forum, I am sure there are other members who appreciate and value your insightful knowledge.

I like your statement "The greatest problem with a narrow, uninformed mind is its inability to look at things from both sides." from post #171. I think it strike at the heart of the problem.
 

HappyMan

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I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your contribution in this forum, I am sure there are other members who appreciate and value your insightful knowledge.

I like your statement "The greatest problem with a narrow, uninformed mind is its inability to look at things from both sides." from post #171. I think it strike at the heart of the problem.
I can't help but wonder if you are talking to yourself.
 

HappyMan

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The Chinese say there has been a massive increase in children attending schools - That being part of a drive to push education, not re-education.

The question is - Who is lying?

Asia news network is a coalition of news services from all over Asia, including Japan and Singapore, the other side of the coin is from is western press with a clear agenda.
I'll leave it up to you to decide.
The Asia News Network doesn't seem to be in the business of vetting their membership's stories. They are a clearing house for stories from the member publications created to allow those publications to share stories between themselves more cheaply. The ANN are such a non-entity for most of the publishers that they aren't mentioned on their individual websites or even their wikipedia pages.

Portraying them as a unified voice for Asia is disingenuous at best.

Addit: The JakartaPost that many forum members read is actually a member of the ANN. If you scroll way down on their homepage, you will see a section titled ChinaDaily. Clicking on that section or any story in it will take you to the China Daily website. They are not even hosted on the JP. That is how tight the "coalition" is. The JP didn't send friggin reporters to check out the Uyghur concentration camps or something, they just lent a slot in their page to the China Daily.
 
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Derf

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China Daily is an English-language daily newspaper owned by the Publicity Department of the Chinese Communist Party.
Does anyone believe China is communist?
They have a commie party, a people's army, and a nice red flag, but they also have loads of billionaires.
They might very well be a nasty, authoritarian, possibly murderous state, but they aren't communist in anything other than name.
In fact, they're now the best capitalists in the world.


Beijing is now home to more billionaires than any other city in the world, according to the latest Forbes' annual rich list.
The Chinese capital added 33 billionaires last year and now hosts 100, said the business magazine.
 

Derf

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STOP the PRESSES --- Communists are Communists in name only!
That'll be something to do with communism being impossible, but also handy for many.
China keeps the name to keep its elite in power, and the US uses the name to make the Chinese communist party sound like communists.
The US can't admit China is an exceptionally successful capitalist nation or the last seventy something years of 'reds under the bed' and all the political advantage and lies that goes with it will be lost.
This, as I've said, is all about cash, but the US paints it as evil communism Vs. beautiful democracy, and human rights against a dictatorship.
Sadly, it's about a massive capitalist unstoppable force hitting a massive capitalist immovable object - Care is required to stop a bloody big bang that'll be heard and felt all the way around the world.
As for oppression of China's Muslim population, I can't say because I have to discount western (especially US) media with an agenda as suspect, and discount China's press for the same reason.
If I ever care enough to want to look into it, I'll try to find independent accounts of events in the region from apolitical hacks.

The trick with this and every other story where cash and power are to be had is simple - Were there WMDs in Iraq?
If not, should we blindly accept there are concentration camps in China?
 

WillieGibbs

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You can be a rich capitalist in China as long as you follow the rules of the state, support the state, say what the state tell you to, never challenge the state, and work for the good of the state. If you don't you will have everything taken away from you, it will be given to someone else to control, and you will be re-educated.

Decentralizing production doesn't mean that the state doesn't retain control.
Most big businesses are state owned. Big private businesses have to be aligned with the state. Foreign businesses in China have committee members that are members of the communist party.

Does anyone believe China is communist?
Nobody has ever believed that 'China' is communist because nothing is black and white. China has always leaned into socialism. Politically China is a communist country.
 

Derf

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Does anyone believe China is communist?
Nobody has ever believed that 'China' is communist because nothing is black and white. China has always leaned into socialism. Politically China is a communist country.
Politically, China is a one party state, but shows none of the traits of communism except their totalitarian attitude, the same thing we see with right wing dictatorships.
They imprison without trial (as does the US), have the death penalty (As does the US), and produce massive propaganda against any perceived enemy (As Trump did), they probably engage in stealing secrets (As does the US), and pretty much everything else you can think of (As does the US) but, apart from a spat or two with India, and a little shooting that came to not a lot in Vietnam, they haven't invaded anyone - Care for a list of countries the US has bombed since 1945?
China doesn't engage in terrorism, something the US can't claim.
They practice private ownership, see profit as a goal, and have extended their extreme capitalist influence over much of the world.
I wouldn't argue for a moment they aren't as dangerous as the States, but they're dangerous in a different way - One threatens, bombs, and kills, but the other creates financial dependency that leaves their victim country stuck with them.
Either way, a foreign country gets influence and/or control, but at least China builds rather than destroys when they do it.

I find a little amusement in seeing how US policy in the South China Sea and various other places has led to China leading the world in renewable energy, energy storage solutions, and EVs.
In this case, the US, a country that removes small children from their parents and stuffs them in prison without even a toothbrush, is complaining China takes kids and educates them.

As I said - I don't know the truth about the supposed camps, but the truth about the country doing the moaning is well documented.

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WillieGibbs

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You ask a question about China being communist.
You get a reply discussing communism in China.
You reply with a lot of stuff about the US.

It seems you just want to vent and shout about the US.
 

Derf

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You ask a question about China being communist.
You get a reply discussing communism in China.
You reply with a lot of stuff about the US.

It seems you just want to vent and shout about the US.
Not at all - The point is simply the US can't complain about possible Chinese human rights abuses when its own record is so bad.
Add the media reports about the situation are not backed up, show little or nothing by way of actual evidence, and there are way too many (seemingly) non-aligned people out there posting videos of street life in the area on youtube that tell a totally different story.
It's equally possible the Chinese state shut down areas of towns, placed local language signage everywhere, reopened mosques, and bunged hundreds of actors in to act as locals, but that's a bit of a stretch to believe as well.
 

Derf

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Then we come to frankly pathetic stories I simply don't believe


The woman claims to have been raped by masked men while detained in a camp. My first question is why would they bother with masks?
Next up is why, if they have their pick of detained women, did they settle for an ugly one?
Let's get real, if rapists had their pick, they'd go for a younger, pretty one with a nice body, not a fugly clapped out old cow with facial warts.
Then we come to the leading 'expert,. Adrian Zenz, an ultra evangelical right nut job (who was commanded by God to tell HIS truth about China) with a very clear agenda but sod all experience that actually counts for anything.
His proof is dodgy reports that can't be substantiated, satellite pictures that could be almost anything, and bugger all else.
His 'evidence' is so weak it wouldn't stand up at a Chinese show trial.

That, I will repeat, is NOT to say there isn't something going on, but the best evidence we have is a Iraq WMD type job, and that's not a lot.
 

Pak Tani

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The treatment of the Uyghur in Xinjiang by the Communist Party of China has a lot in common with how Falun Gong members were persecuted around 20 years ago.

The persecution of Falun Gong is the antireligious campaign initiated in 1999 by the Communist Party of China to eliminate the spiritual practice of Falun Gong in China, which maintains a doctrine of state atheism. It is characterized by a multifaceted propaganda campaign, a program of enforced ideological conversion and re-education and reportedly a variety of extralegal coercive measures such as arbitrary arrests, forced labor and physical torture, sometimes resulting in death.

There are reports of systematic torture, illegal imprisonment, forced labor, organ harvesting and abusive psychiatric measures, with the apparent aim of forcing practitioners to recant their belief in Falun Gong.

Foreign observers estimate that hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions of Falun Gong practitioners have been detained in "re-education through labor" camps, prisons and other detention facilities for refusing to renounce the spiritual practice.
 

Derf

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The treatment of the Uyghur in Xinjiang by the Communist Party of China has a lot in common with how Falun Gong members were persecuted around 20 years ago.
... and today.
However, they are a political organisation that holds the express aim of destroying the Chinese government.
Posters might like to know they operate on Bali to the South of Kuta beach. - that centre were all the Chinese restaurants are.
 

HappyMan

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Not at all - The point is simply the US can't complain about possible Chinese human rights abuses when its own record is so bad.
What? This is just silly, man. It's not a game of football on the telly. There are concentration camps full of Uyghur. It doesn't matter who the people complaining are. It matters that China closes the camps and stops picking candidates for "persecution of the week".
 

Derf

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There are concentration camps full of Uyghur. It doesn't matter who the people complaining are. It matters that China closes the camps and stops picking candidates for "persecution of the week".
Are there?
Perhaps you can show some proof of this.
 

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