The Uyghur and China discussion thread

@HappyMan @Pak Tani

Thank you for your posts, I have read through it already, it will be easy for me to respond but will take some of my time. And today (1st day of April) is a busy day for me. However, tomorrow is public holiday. You should get my comment on your post #96 to #100 as soon as possible, my answer will be point-by-point.
 
It's not a conspiracy theory if it's true!

Said every conspiracy theorist ever.
 
@HappyMan @Pak Tani

Thank you for your posts, I have read through it already, it will be easy for me to respond but will take some of my time. And today (1st day of April) is a busy day for me. However, tomorrow is public holiday. You should get my comment on your post #96 to #100 as soon as possible, my answer will be point-by-point.

I will get the drinks and popcorn ready.
 
I did read it, briefly. I saw a Times article from 44 years ago. I saw a person who was director of the CIA, 34 years ago. And, I saw the speculation of a journalist whom I honestly know nothing about, other than what was on his Wikipedia page. Looking at that page, I can safely say that his work is not without controversy... including harsh criticism from the Times (which you deigned to cite) for writing that "tips sufficiently and with enough regularity into full-scale conspiracy to allow any careful reader to dismiss it."

I'm not the kind of person to ignore live interviews with Uyghur expats in favor of the aforementioned references. Of course I am not convinced. Get a grip.

HappyMan, I’m not trying to convince you. You asked a question, I answered. You make a comment, I respond. As simple as that. Honestly, I believe you are hopeless, this thread is not recommended for narrow-minded folks.
 
I'm having trouble finding a source for your assertion that UHRP is funded by American taxes. Got anything reputable?

Here again, you ask about something, and I’m giving it to you. Not even a “thank you”.

Below is from https://www.ned.org/wp-content/them...yghur&maxCount=25&orderBy=Year&start=1&sbmt=1

Search results for keyword(s) "Uyghur"
Project Focus:
Displaying records 1-12 of 12 results
All results totalling $2,738,698
Total may include redundant amount due to supplements.​



Project Title: Documentation and Advocacy for Uyghur Human Rights
Organization Name: Uyghur Human Rights Project
Project Region: Asia
Project Country: Xinjiang / East Turkistan (China)
Project Focus: Human Rights
Description: To raise awareness and enhance the prominence of Uyghur human rights issues. The grantee will research, document, and provide independent and accurate information about human rights violations affecting Uyghurs in China. The grantee will conduct outreach to Chinese audiences and opinion leaders to foster understanding and build coalitions for improvement of human rights conditions for Uyghurs, and will continue to carry out human rights advocacy internationally.
Year: 2016
Award Amount: $315,000
Project Title: Uyghur Human Rights Advocacy
Organization Name: World Uyghur Congress
Project Region: Asia
Project Country: Xinjiang / East Turkistan (China)
Project Focus: Democratic Ideas and Values
Description: To raise awareness and support for Uyghurs' human rights in East Turkestan/Xinjiang. The grantee will organize an international training seminar on Uyghur issues and advocacy skills. This seminar will allow participants to effectively engage other human rights NGOs, the international community, and the media in efforts to document and speak out for Uyghur human rights.
Year: 2016
Award Amount: $295,000
 
Project Title: Advocacy and Outreach for Uyghur Human Rights
Organization Name: Uyghur Human Rights Project
Project Region: Asia
Project Country: Xinjiang / East Turkistan (China)
Project Focus: Human Rights
Description: To raise awareness about Uyghur human rights issues, and to bring such issues to prominence globally. The grantee will research, document, and provide independent and accurate information about human rights violations affecting Uyghurs in China. It will also conduct outreach to Chinese citizens in an effort to improve the human rights conditions for Uyghurs, as well as providing international advocacy.
Year: 2017
Award Amount: $294,698
Project Title: Uyghur Human Rights Advocacy
Organization Name: World Uyghur Congress
Project Region: Asia
Project Country: Xinjiang / East Turkistan (China)
Project Focus: Democratic Ideas and Values
Description: To raise awareness and support for Uyghurs' human rights. The grantee will organize leadership and advocacy training seminars for Uyghur youth; monitor, document, and highlight human rights violations in East Turkestan/Xinjiang; and strengthen advocacy on Uyghur issues at the United Nations and the European Parliament.
Year: 2017
Award Amount: $246,000


Project Title: Advocacy and Outreach for Uyghur Human Rights
Organization Name: Uyghur Human Rights Project
Project Region: Asia
Project Country: Xinjiang / East Turkistan (China)
Project Focus: Human Rights
Description: To raise awareness of and advocate for Uyghur human rights. The organization will research, document, and provide independent and accurate information about human rights violations affecting Uyghurs in China. It will also conduct outreach to Chinese citizens, and engage in international advocacy on topics related to Uyghur human rights.
Year: 2018
Award Amount: $315,000
Note: This is the total grant amount and includes a supplement that was approved separately.
Project Title: Uyghur Human Rights Advocacy
Organization Name: World Uyghur Congress
Project Region: Asia
Project Country: Xinjiang / East Turkistan (China)
Project Focus: Human Rights
Description: To raise awareness and support for Uyghurs' human rights. The program will organize leadership and advocacy training seminars for Uyghur youth, monitor, document, and highlight human rights violations in East Turkestan/Xinjiang, advocate on Uyghur issues at the United Nations and the European Parliament, and support and coordinate the Uyghur diaspora.
Year: 2018
Award Amount: $354,000
Note: This is the total grant amount and includes a supplement that was approved separately.


Project Title: Uyghur Human Rights Advocacy
Organization Name: World Uyghur Congress
Project Region: Asia
Project Country: Xinjiang / East Turkistan (China)
Project Focus: Human Rights
Description: To raise awareness and support for Uyghurs' human rights. The program will organize leadership and advocacy training seminars for Uyghur youth, monitor, document, and highlight human rights violations in East Turkestan/Xinjiang, advocate on Uyghur issues at the United Nations and the European Parliament, and support and coordinate the Uyghur diaspora.
Year: 2018
Award Amount: $9,000
Note: This amount is a supplement that was approved separately.
Project Title: Advocacy and Outreach for Uyghur Human Rights
Organization Name: Uyghur Human Rights Project
Project Region: Asia
Project Country: Xinjiang / East Turkistan (China)
Project Focus: Human Rights
Description: To raise awareness of and advocate for Uyghur human rights. The organization will research, document, and provide independent and accurate information about human rights violations affecting Uyghurs in China. It will also conduct outreach to Chinese citizens, and engage in international advocacy on topics related to Uyghur human rights.
Year: 2018
Award Amount: $5,000
Note: This amount is a supplement that was approved separately.


Project Title: Advocacy and Outreach for Uyghur Human Rights
Organization Name: Uyghur Human Rights Project
Project Region: Asia
Project Country: Xinjiang / East Turkistan (China)
Project Focus: Human Rights
Description: To raise awareness of and advocate for Uyghur human rights. The organization will research, document, and provide independent and accurate information about human rights violations affecting Uyghurs in China, and abroad. It will also conduct outreach to Chinese citizens, collaborate with other civil society organizations in an effort to raise awareness about the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Xinjiang/East Turkistan, and engage in national and international advocacy.
Year: 2019
Award Amount: $315,000
Project Title: Defending and Advocating for Uyghur Human Rights
Organization Name: World Uyghur Congress
Project Region: Asia
Project Country: Xinjiang / East Turkistan (China)
Project Focus: Human Rights
Description: To raise awareness of and support for Uyghur human rights. The organization will: conduct international and regional advocacy on Uyghur issues; organize advocacy and capacity training for Uyghur youth; monitor, document, and highlight ongoing human rights abuses in East Turkistan; convene an international conference on concentration camps; and provide support and coordination for the Uyghur diaspora.
Year: 2019
Award Amount: $380,000


Project Title: Documenting Human Rights Violations in East Turkistan
Project Region:Asia
Project Country:Xinjiang / East Turkistan (China)
Project Focus: Human Rights
Description: To document and make publicly available meaningful analysis of human rights violations in East Turkistan to uphold justice and accountability. The organization will expand and maintain a database of the ongoing enforced disappearance and detention of Uyghurs and other Turkic Muslims in internment camps by collecting information through online and offline methods, publish two interim reports and an annual report analyzing trends and patterns of abuses, and disseminate the reports to serve as a resource for international advocacy.
Year: 2019
Award Amount: $90,000
Project Title: Empowering Women and Youth for Advocacy and Civic Participation
Project Region:Asia
Project Country:Xinjiang / East Turkistan (China)
Project Focus: Human Rights
Description: To empower women and youth from the Uyghur diaspora to participate in advocacy to protect human rights. The organization will train Uyghur women and youth in advocacy skills and civic participation and foster greater engagement through advocacy campaigns and collaboration with other organizations. The organization will also increase awareness about the Uyghur crisis among a wider international audience through outreach efforts.
Year: 2019
Award Amount: $120,000
 
This is our problem, the video doesn't show what you say it does. Did they show the entirety of the Chinese news program? Nope. Did they make any false statements regarding the video? Nope. Was that video clip the heart of their story? Nope.

Their story was about a document that showed plans to disperse and re-educate the Uyghur population via work programs. A systemic attempt to alter the Uyghur people against their will. Your source did not counter this document.

The only noteworthy contribution they made was to say that the talking head the BBC used worked for an organization that was funded by the US government. I haven't been able to find a confirmation for that. I see the the VoCMF was established as a charity by Congress, but not where the ongoing funding is from. Got anything reputable?

Look, I'm not going to say that major media sources never get it wrong (though they didn't seem to here), but they do this thing where they report on their own mistakes... I like that. I don't think the government run media in China does that when the government tells them to publish false information. Nope, not unless they want to end up in a BBC story about jailed journalists.

Ya know, the CIA can't just jail journalists when they say something the CIA doesn't like, not unless the CIA wants all the other journalists to spend then next six months reporting on it.

We aren't guessing a out whether or not the CCP suppresses any information that is unflattering to it. It is a known policy. When they stop wearing their "I'm a liar who lies and doesn't let other people speak because they might say I am a liar" T-shirt, I might give some weight to their opinions.

Did you finish the video? The first 2:36 is the BBC “report”, see the YouTuber’s yellow text at the top and the bottom left? Then you compare it with the original CGTN report. At 6:12, that’s the part which the BBC omitted. So viewers get the wrong message from the BBC that Uyghurs are being forced instead of being persuaded.

You can see the original CGTN clip from November 6, 2017: https://youtu.be/07NjqkQAgs8 and the BBC clip from March 3, 2021: https://youtu.be/-mqga0a6H8I .

From one of the comment there: Not only did BBC plagiarized a CGTN report, they purposefully took the report out of context and altered it into a smear propaganda. One of these days, their lies will come back to bite them in their arses.
 
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Wow, another hour gone. 😂 I didn't really want to learn this much about random ngos and journalists, but here we are. I need a better hobby.

For me, I don’t need a new hobby. I am contributing here because it is the right thing to do (to expose the lies, disinformation, and propaganda of hate). I know this will be a thankless job, not only that, I am sure I am being disliked by many. If I wish to be popular in this forum, I will just go along with you guys. But my conscience is shouting if I just keep quiet. Knowing too much about China is a burden too, but somebody has to defend the truth.
 
It would seem the "truth" is whatever the CCP says is the truth. Is that not your position?
Are you able to say the CCP never tells untruths?

As I have said, I read both sides of the story. Moreover, I have travelled many times to China. Many of my sources are Western expats in China. Be patience, I will acknowledge all of them here soon.

By the way, I think you are stuck in the 1970s, China is very different from the 1990s. You keep talking about China like the country is still the ‘cultural revolution’ period. There was no “minder” anywhere I go in China, including Tibet and Xinjiang (my comment to your post #51).
 
Kudos to you @HappyMan, for reading into the 'evidence' delivered by Dave70. Personally, I cannot be arsed to watch a story of a Chinese Communist Party controlled news agency. Or from any other source from Dave70 after he warned against www.bitterwinter.org after it backfired and turned out to contain loads of articles about atrocities committed by the CCP against all kinds of minorities in (and outside of) China. He picks and chooses whatever supports his narrative (and he is a bit careless sometimes.)

From a different thread:




Let's take a Great Leap Forward to the current thread:




And that is how you will be remembered.

It was a blessing in disguise that my wife’s friend forwarded to her the Bitter Winter article. I found out that many of the MSM fake news were being generated there. Of course, the MSM is selective too, as they have many articles to choose from. Anyway, Bitter Winter is funded by an Italian cult organization whose reputation is garbage in Europe since twenty years ago. CESNUR - Wikipedia

The French described these cultists as “he distinguished himself in France by his systematic interventions in favor of sects brought to justice: Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientology, Order of the Solar Temple, the Moonies, AUM sect (responsible for the deadly attack on the Tokyo subway in 1995), all the sects know they can count on CESNUR”.

Their reputation in Asia is also garbage after the 1995 Sarin gas attack in Tokyo, “In the aftermath of the 1995 sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway, CENSUR board member J. Gordon Melton and CENSUR scholar James R. Lewis flew to Japan at the expense of Aum Shinrikyo; They then held press conferences in Japan stating their belief that the group did not have the ability to produce sarin and was being scapegoated.”
 
Before HappyMan ask me who the hell is the NED, watch the video below.


More on Xinjiang and the Uyghurs, as British expat Lee Barrett said, “Do your due diligence, take some time to think critically and form your own opinions based on facts, not rumours and speculation”.


Something to add (and think about), do you know that the USA is penalizing anyone who visits Xinjiang? Do you remember how upset the USA got when it learned that Disney made part of their film Mulan in Xinjiang? They penalized Disney. The USA forbids anyone to visit Xinjiang. Why? Because they don’t want ordinary Americans to know the truth.
 
As I have said, I read both sides of the story. Moreover, I have travelled many times to China. Many of my sources are Western expats in China. Be patience, I will acknowledge all of them here soon.

By the way, I think you are stuck in the 1970s, China is very different from the 1990s. You keep talking about China like the country is still the ‘cultural revolution’ period. There was no “minder” anywhere I go in China, including Tibet and Xinjiang (my comment to your post #51).
You might read both sides of the story but avoided dealing directly with my statements.

"It would seem the "truth" is whatever the CCP says is the truth. Is that not your position?
Are you able to say the CCP never tells untruths?"
 
Here again, you ask about something, and I’m giving it to you. Not even a “thank you”.

You actually linked something that I can verify here, so thanks. I am not terribly pleased about NED funding the UHR, as I know that the source of funding can effect the voice of an organization. But, I was rolling it over in my thoughts, and I can't think of a source of funding that I wouldn't squint at. I also have a suspicious mind. The thing is that I have a high standard for proof. Proof first, then conclusion.

As regards funding and entanglements generally, if you believe they are important, you should probably be mentioning on every Chinese based media source that you link that it is from the state controlled media. I reckon that deserves an extra squint.

I'll point out that the UHR is staffed by Uyghur people.

Finally, as regards "thanks", most people would not thank you for spreading your personal manure in the public garden, irrespective of whether or not you think it is good for the flowers.
 
For me, I don’t need a new hobby. I am contributing here because it is the right thing to do (to expose the lies, disinformation, and propaganda of hate). I know this will be a thankless job, not only that, I am sure I am being disliked by many. If I wish to be popular in this forum, I will just go along with you guys. But my conscience is shouting if I just keep quiet. Knowing too much about China is a burden too, but somebody has to defend the truth.

You aren't the only one on this forum who has spent time in China. There are at least a couple of people here who have spent a year or more there.
People there are afraid to say the "wrong" thing. I've seen that myself. They will tell you that bad things will happen to someone who refuses to support the CCP. Again, my own experience.
The government controls the media and restricts factual information that makes it look bad. This is well documented by reasonable sources.
You don't need some mysterious "propaganda of hate" to see that the CCP is rotten. They are an authoritarian government who seeks to control the thoughts and expressions of thought of their citizens to an unreasonable degree. Do you not understand that that is bad?
 
You might read both sides of the story but avoided dealing directly with my statements.

"It would seem the "truth" is whatever the CCP says is the truth. Is that not your position?
Are you able to say the CCP never tells untruths?"

Harryopal, I guess you are getting old (but don’t worry, I’m not getting any younger either). I never said my sources are the CCP. Indeed, CGTN is state-owned. But so does the BBC. As I said, many of my sources are Western expats in China. Others are my Chinese friends and business partners, but none of them is a CCP member.

Anyway, it would be naïve to believe that the CCP “never tell untruths”. Politics is dirty everywhere, I don’t think China is an exception. So how can anybody say “the truth is whatever the CCP says is the truth”? Nevertheless, I did not find any fake news produced by any Chinese media so far.
 
The thing is that I have a high standard for proof. Proof first, then conclusion.

It’s good to have a high standard of proof, unfortunately, some MSM have journalists who report without evidence other than what the exiled Uyghurs are telling them.

I'll point out that the UHR is staffed by Uyghur people.

The UHRP is staffed by EXILED Uyghur people. Why are they “exiled”? Because they want Xinjiang to separate from China. And they go to countries which support their cause. In other words, they are Anti-China activist. For example, let’s look at Rebiya Kadeer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebiya_Kadeer

Rebiya Kadeer (Uighur: رابىيە قادىر, Рабийә Қадир; born 15 November 1946) is an ethnic Uyghur, businesswoman and political activist. Born in Altay City, Xinjiang, Kadeer became a millionaire in the 1980s through her real estate holdings and ownership of a multinational conglomerate. Kadeer held various positions in the National People's Congress in Beijing and other political institutions before being arrested in 1999 for, according to Chinese state media, sending confidential internal reference reports to her husband, who worked in the United States as a pro-East Turkistan independence broadcaster. After she fled to the United States in 2005 on compassionate release, Kadeer assumed leadership positions in overseas Uyghur organizations such as the World Uyghur Congress.

Do you expect them to speak good things about China? They even induced Tursunay Ziawudun (also spelled as Ziyawudun) and Sayragul Sautbay (or Sauytbay) to fabricate lies as explained in my post #69.


Finally, as regards "thanks", most people would not thank you for spreading your personal manure in the public garden, irrespective of whether or not you think it is good for the flowers.

As I said, I know my efforts will be thankless. Actually, I’m trying to clean someone else’s manure in the public garden. If I’m the one “spreading my personal manure in the public garden”, I would be chased away by the groundskeepers long ago.
 

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