No More Inefficient or Intolerant Indonesia - Jokowi's New Vision

[R Cameron]

The Robin Hood story is compelling because there was great injustice and the victims were powerless with no defense or recourse because of tyrannical systems.

In contrast, the Republic of Indonesia has ample power and authority to defend itself if a zealot attempts to menghancurkan the nation, and has no need for the vigilante justice of an individual who decides they ought to become judge, jury, and executioner.

Even worse that the potential vigilante is a police officer who should be reinforcing the rule of law.

 

[HappyMan]

A quote from one of the FPI's campaigns against Amayadiyyah, "We call on the Muslim community. Let us go to war with Ahmadiyyah! Kill Ahmadiyyah wherever they are!........ And, if they talk about human rights? Human rights are satanic! Human rights are crap!.....If they want to know who is responsible for killing Ahmadiyyah, it is I; it is FPI and others from the Muslim community who are responsible for killing Ahmadiyyah! Say that Sobri Lubis ordered it, that Habib Rizieq and FPI ordered it!" From a speech by Sobri Lubris.

Ordering what is right, forbidding what is wrong: two faces of Hadhrami dakwah in contemporary Indonesia

This paper is concerned with two faces of Hadhrami dakwah in post-New Order Indonesia. One is that of Habib Syech bin Abulkadir Assegaf (Habib Syech) who promotes traditional Sufi piety and opposes religious and political violence. The other is that

www.academia.edu

More from Wikipedia, "The FPI was suspected of acting behind the scenes in the 6 February 2011 assault against the Ahmadiyyah community, in which three people were killed."

Just thought I would note, Rizieq is the leader of a group of people who make death threats against those who believe differently. Vigilante pretty much describes this group.

 

[Dave70]

Are we honestly chin-stroking over whether death threats are OK when it's someone we don't like?

Come on, chaps. Murder is bad, mmkay. This is not a controversial take. Thou shalt not and all that. Crikey.

Relax, nobody is saying the police officer did the right thing.

The issue being debated is calling the police officer a hero for standing up to Rizieq (not for the death threats). But @dafluff seems to have a problem with my choice of who I consider a hero. Directly or indirectly, he even called me "ignorant", "lacking principle", and "hypocrite". That's OK, as Moderator, he got the right to be condescending. As a bonus, our debate increased traffic to this website, so at least I'm contributing something.

 

[R Cameron]

Just thought I would note, Rizieq is the leader of a group of people who make death threats against those who believe differently.

So? Are you implying that because "they started it" it is okay to respond similarly?

 

[HappyMan]

So? Are you implying that because "they started it" it is okay to respond similarly?

No. I think that the police officer should be charged with any applicable laws. Article 366 of the criminal code, Wikipedia says. I also think that the action was unwise, as it does not accomplish much. Vigilantes should always face the law. That is what is necessary to maintain a peaceful society.

At the same time, I appreciate the sentiment of telling a bully that you have had enough. You should not always run from a fight. Defending yourself from someone who wants to bully you out of your rights and freedoms seems reasonable to me. But, this officer has probably only managed to ruin his own life and done nothing to the FPI.

What would be nice to see is the FPI being held to account for any and all infractions of the law.

 

[dafluff]

Relax, nobody is saying the police officer did the right thing.

The issue being debated is calling the police officer a hero for standing up to Rizieq (not for the death threats). But @dafluff seems to have a problem with my choice of who I consider a hero. Directly or indirectly, he even called me "ignorant", "lacking principle", and "hypocrite". That's OK, as Moderator, he got the right to be condescending. As a bonus, our debate increased traffic to this website, so at least I'm contributing something.

Standing up to someone is not the same as threatening to behead them. Your choice of hero is entirely up to you, and they reflect your core principles.

If you have issues with my postings, please hit the report button and the rest of the moderation team will respond to your concerns.

 

[Lungbon]

But, this officer has probably only managed to ruin his own life and done nothing to the FPI.

Thanks to this officer mr Rizieq (and his Merry Men) can now play the victim card.

 

[Dave70]

If you have issues with my postings, please hit the report button and the rest of the moderation team will respond to your concerns.

No, it's not necessary, thank you for your suggestion.

 

[HappyMan]

Thanks to this officer mr Rizieq (and his Merry Men) can now play the victim card.

Yes, though I am unsure which well informed Indonesian would be willing to accept that card. Error: karmic balance insufficient.

I don't really talk politics with Indonesians (I am too uninformed, if nothing else), bit I've never heard his name mentioned with respect. Of course, my friends are a self selected group. I think he'll just be preaching to the choir.

 

[Vulgarian]

Shoot-out between the police and FPI. Six dead. Can't find an English source yet.
https://m.cnnindonesia.com/nasional...rok-polisi-dan-pendukung-rizieq-6-orang-tewas

 

[nd_eric_77]

Shoot-out between the police and FPI. Six dead. Can't find an English source yet.
https://m.cnnindonesia.com/nasional...rok-polisi-dan-pendukung-rizieq-6-orang-tewas

Hopefully Jokowi can finally declare FPI to be a terrorist organization and disband it. FPI's "mass organization" permit is up for renewal, after all...
As for an English language source, JP should have a Google Translate version up soon ;-)

 

[HappyMan]

Hopefully Jokowi can finally declare FPI to be a terrorist organization and disband it. FPI's "mass organization" permit is up for renewal, after all...
As for an English language source, JP should have a Google Translate version up soon ;-)

JP does have a piece up. Doesn't have the Aziz(FPI) quotes from the CNN piece, though.

Six alleged Rizieq sympathizers shot dead following purported attack on Jakarta Police - City - The Jakarta Post

The Jakarta Police have shot dead six people thought to be supporters of Islam Defenders Front (FPI) leader Rizieq Shihab in response to a purported attack on police officers at the Jagorawi toll road in the early hours of Monday.

www.thejakartapost.com

 

[nd_eric_77]

JP does have a piece up. Doesn't have the Aziz(FPI) quotes from the CNN piece, though.

Six alleged Rizieq sympathizers shot dead following purported attack on Jakarta Police - City - The Jakarta Post

The Jakarta Police have shot dead six people thought to be supporters of Islam Defenders Front (FPI) leader Rizieq Shihab in response to a purported attack on police officers at the Jagorawi toll road in the early hours of Monday.

www.thejakartapost.com

As for everybody's favorite hero, his habit of running and hiding reminded me of a character from Monty Python:

"That's, that's enough music for now lads, there's dirty work afoot."
Brave Sir Robin ran away.
("No!")
Bravely ran away away.
("I didn't!")
When danger reared it's ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
("I never!")
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
("You're lying!")
Swiftly taking to his feet,
He beat a very brave retreat.
Bravest of the brave, Sir Robin!

 

[Helpful Herbert]

His mother probably smells of Elderberry too

 

[Helpful Herbert]

This is like the bad guy play-off. The two biggest legal cases of the last 10 years were 1) Police vs JIS teachers (bad guys won) and 2) Ahok v Rizieq/FPI (bad guys won). Now the bad guys are going head to head, and it's hard to get emotionally involved this time around, but at least it keeps both teams occupied and less able to cause trouble elsewhere.

 

[jstar]

Investors from Europe are very interested in Indonesia, but are waiting because of next year's elections," Investment Minister Bahlil Lahadalia stated during the trip to Germany.

President Jokowi met with PowerCo top management during the visit to Hannover. This meeting discussed Volkswagen's investment plan through its subsidiary, PowerCo, to build an integrated electric vehicle battery industry in Indonesia.

 

[Bob]

Investors from Europe are very interested in Indonesia, but are waiting because of next year's elections," Investment Minister Bahlil Lahadalia stated during the trip to Germany.

President Jokowi met with PowerCo top management during the visit to Hannover. This meeting discussed Volkswagen's investment plan through its subsidiary, PowerCo, to build an integrated electric vehicle battery industry in Indonesia.

View attachment 2980

Wonderful, more environmental degradation.

 

[jstar]

Nickel mining obviously has an environmental impact. Having said that, it is mostly used for stainless steel production, batteries use less than 15% of the product. That will be more if the Electric Vehicle becomes more popular. But it’s a balancing act of course, and all pros have a con. To get cleaner cities and avoid emissions, somewhere else you will leave a footprint.

 

[jstar]

Transportation is a major contributor to carbon emissions in the mining industry btw. It is somewhat ironic that the nickel taken in the diesel dump trucks will be used for cars without emissions. Hopefully Indonesia (and the manufacturers of course) will take action and put measurements in place to minimize that.

 

[pantaiema]

The original thread is about Inefficiency or Intolerance in Indonesia but later developed to a more specific subject, the impact of mining on the environment.

My take on this; there should be a trade-off between environment / ecosystem and human civilization . This is a never-ending debate.

If no mining (I am aware this is an extreme statement) is allowed then you will not be living like today, with all of the comforts those people in ancient world did not enjoy. Nowadays there are comforts around the built environment, around your environment such as thermal comfort, visual comfort, aural comfort. Not to mention the development in transportation, Robotics, 3D-Visualisation, AI and other disruptive technologies that help human with their daily jobs, to become more efficient more prosperous, become part of the global community where the distance will become less relevant.

If Indonesian government is not exploiting its natural resources come from mining such as coal, nickel, bauxite, gold, tin, and copper than Indonesian economy will not be like today. Similarly to the nation's mineral resources such as natural gas and crude petroleum. What is important here is that to make sure that these natural resources are enjoyed by Indonesian people in general. What has been happening sofar is that these natural resources is just exploited by a limited number of people like they inherited from their "engkong" (ancestors) committing monopoly in business, corruption, collusion and nepotism.

What extreme things the environmental extremists have been doing sofar ? Tie them self on the motor way, blocking oil tankers, blocking access to public transport, etc. Their action will also have effect on other people cost people money and time. They never ask to reimburse people losses.

If you do not like any mining, because you think it will lead to environmental destruction. Then prepare to live like what Romans did in the past. Do you want to live like that??
A lot of people in Jakarta are travelling in Jakarta living without air-conditioning in their homes, travelling with over loaded cheap buses, microlets (Mini buses), is it what you are actually doing to follow what you yourself are preaching ??
Or just do not use any of them and see whether you could still have legs to stand on your principles

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