No More Inefficient or Intolerant Indonesia - Jokowi's New Vision

[LRB]

Since this thread is still alive ... one thing that has not been brought up, I think, is this:

Pancasila day is not a religious event at all!

Religion is not something that I am particularly comfortable discussing or criticizing in public. But there are such ideas as "political religions" according to some scholars (see: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14690760601121614). When there are songs/anthems, codes and regimented indoctrination of dictates placed into a package, what does one call it?...

 

[Wisnu]

Since this thread is still alive ... one thing that has not been brought up, I think, is this:

Pancasila day is not a religious event at all!

my college friends recall me as the most Pancasilaist's student as I took Pancasila 1 classes for 3 consecutive term. My lecturer apparently could not forget my silly comments.

 

[snpark]

Pancake day should be a holiday

 

[flavus]

When there are songs/anthems, codes and regimented indoctrination of dictates placed into a package, what does one call it?...

I would call it ideology, but I also think religion is a subset of ideologies

 

[LRB]

I would call it ideology, but I also think religion is a subset of ideologies

Erm... so ideology is a superordinate and religion falls under it taxonomically... nothing I am opposed to if articulated correctly. So... Ideology > Religion > Political (secular) Religion...

 

[jstar]

Erm, wasn't ideology invented as the alternative for religion? Destutt/Marx etc. Just like political religion, there are many political ideologies as alternative. All the ‘-isms’.

Anyway, having just celebrated Pacasila Day, I always thought it was seen as a philosophical foundation here?! And then I read something like this, look at the bottom of page 148 (the 8th page) for instance. If young students here have these ideas, we still have a long way to go…

https://ejurnalpancasila.bpip.go.id/index.php/PJK/article/download/29/17/140

 

[snpark]

Why do we sing hymns not hers
Because we say amen not awomen

 

[flavus]

Erm, wasn't ideology invented as the alternative for religion? Destutt/Marx etc. Just like political religion, there are many political ideologies as alternative. All the ‘-isms’.

Anyway, having just celebrated Pacasila Day, I always thought it was seen as a philosophical foundation here?! And then I read something like this, look at the bottom of page 148 (the 8th page) for instance. If young students here have these ideas, we still have a long way to go…

Oh wow

Fostering good character starts from
the family, which is the smallest individual
environment. A strong nation will be moral,
dignified, have good character, and be
virtuous. Advanced science in this digital
era should not dampen the sense of faith and
piety to God Almighty. The existence of
differences should be a shared wealth that
must be maintained, not sharpened and
sharpened so as to trigger conflict (Roziq,
2016).

There are good and bad influences
from foreign cultures. Bad influences such
as drinking alcohol, dressing style that is
sometimes too minimal, getting drunk,
living freely, and being impolite

Sadly not a surprise. Some conservative religious mores are quite entrenched (even more than in the past it seems?) that I have heard the "alcohol is terrible" line even from .. a Catholic, even though their priests drink wine as part of communion!

And many non-Catholic Indonesian Christians seem to consider the US and Europe to be decadent and fallen from grace

 

[LRB]

Erm, wasn't ideology invented as the alternative for religion? Destutt/Marx etc. Just like political religion, there are many political ideologies as alternative. All the ‘-isms’.

Anyway, having just celebrated Pacasila Day, I always thought it was seen as a philosophical foundation here?! And then I read something like this, look at the bottom of page 148 (the 8th page) for instance. If young students here have these ideas, we still have a long way to go…

https://ejurnalpancasila.bpip.go.id/index.php/PJK/article/download/29/17/140

Think about the traits of what we call an ideology or a theology (both are systems of ideas). They are formed of very similar characteristics and privilege specific sets of people as the arbiters of correct knowledge in any given example. They use doctrine, a common narrative and conditioning to culture approved beliefs and behaviors in a populace. The original response was to the statement that a certain day this week was not a religious holiday. I'm writing around it as much as possible because I don't want to be misconstrued.

The point that I am afraid to make is essentially that if a doctrine/code is adhered to blindly, and that code contains a deity, we call the belief "faith" and the system of ideas a "religion". Following that, an ideology is just a system of ideas and/or beliefs without the deity or with a human deity or another entity (e.g. the nation state) to fill that role. So, whether or not we call something "political", "religious" or otherwise is just a matter of applying a specific label to human belief.

I understand the distinction between the two in a practical sense. One label to discuss belief systems in gods/deities and another to discuss belief systems related to the nation state. In practice though, these lines are often blurred and say with the former king of Thailand (Rama IX), the reverence of the population looked very much like worship to me when I lived there. The behaviors exhibited were much more religious in nature than anything I would define as political, there was a definite cult of personality in the very least. It was illegal to question or critique the status quo there and apostates were punished with prison sentences, fines or trips to attitude adjustment training centers. Characteristically speaking, if something or someone is infallible or unquestionable and questioning it/them results in punishment, then an apt descriptor for the behavior of punishment is something like fervor or religiosity when referencing the cause that is being defended.

In practice, lines are blurred and there is very little to differentiate between the defensive behaviors that people or groups of people exhibit when their beliefs are questioned (whether these beliefs are religious, political or otherwise). Thus, for me, in practice, state ideologies can function as state religions and the same mechanisms are often used to promote loyalty towards them (hymn/anthem; cross/flag; bible/constitution; use of formal ceremony etc.). Thus, it if is plausible to describe defensive behaviors, as outlined above, using terms like fervor or religiosity then it makes sense to consider the possibility that traditional and state religions can exist synergistically within a society. If so, then religious holiday, national holiday or national religious holiday are all permissible as labels to describe days in the calendar that proliferate the furthering of these belief systems...

 

[centurion]

Why do we sing hymns not hers
Because we say amen not awomen

I've heard that some women have 9-inch penises now.

 

[Samoerai]

Erm, wasn't ideology invented as the alternative for religion? Destutt/Marx etc. Just like political religion, there are many political ideologies as alternative. All the ‘-isms’.

Anyway, having just celebrated Pacasila Day, I always thought it was seen as a philosophical foundation here?! And then I read something like this, look at the bottom of page 148 (the 8th page) for instance. If young students here have these ideas, we still have a long way to go…

https://ejurnalpancasila.bpip.go.id/index.php/PJK/article/download/29/17/140

Is there a paragraph saying something like "Be proud of what you do ... work hard, fast and good ... with quality results"? If not ... then Indonesia has a long way to go ..

 

[snpark]

I've heard that some women have 9-inch penises now.

Well if it was 12inches it would be a foot

 

[Samoerai]

Think about the traits of what we call an ideology or a theology (both are systems of ideas). They are formed of very similar characteristics and privilege specific sets of people as the arbiters of correct knowledge in any given example. They use doctrine, a common narrative and conditioning to culture approved beliefs and behaviors in a populace. The original response was to the statement that a certain day this week was not a religious holiday. I'm writing around it as much as possible because I don't want to be misconstrued.

The point that I am afraid to make is essentially that if a doctrine/code is adhered to blindly, and that code contains a deity, we call the belief "faith" and the system of ideas a "religion". Following that, an ideology is just a system of ideas and/or beliefs without the deity or with a human deity or another entity (e.g. the nation state) to fill that role. So, whether or not we call something "political", "religious" or otherwise is just a matter of applying a specific label to human belief.

I understand the distinction between the two in a practical sense. One label to discuss belief systems in gods/deities and another to discuss belief systems related to the nation state. In practice though, these lines are often blurred and say with the former king of Thailand (Rama IX), the reverence of the population looked very much like worship to me when I lived there. The behaviors exhibited were much more religious in nature than anything I would define as political, there was a definite cult of personality in the very least. It was illegal to question or critique the status quo there and apostates were punished with prison sentences, fines or trips to attitude adjustment training centers. Characteristically speaking, if something or someone is infallible or unquestionable and questioning it/them results in punishment, then an apt descriptor for the behavior of punishment is something like fervor or religiosity when referencing the cause that is being defended.

In practice, lines are blurred and there is very little to differentiate between the defensive behaviors that people or groups of people exhibit when their beliefs are questioned (whether these beliefs are religious, political or otherwise). Thus, for me, in practice, state ideologies can function as state religions and the same mechanisms are often used to promote loyalty towards them (hymn/anthem; cross/flag; bible/constitution; use of formal ceremony etc.). Thus, it if is plausible to describe defensive behaviors, as outlined above, using terms like fervor or religiosity then it makes sense to consider the possibility that traditional and state religions can exist synergistically within a society. If so, then religious holiday, national holiday or national religious holiday are all permissible as labels to describe days in the calendar that proliferate the furthering of these belief systems...

Interesting .. TED talk.

 

[snpark]

The best TED talk

 

[Samoerai]

INDONESIA IS THE MOST GENEROUS COUNTRY IN THE WORLD FOR THE FIFTH YEAR IN A ROW

Indonesia tops the World Giving Index for a fifth year with a score of 68%. The country has the highest rates of donating and volunteering in the world. During 2021, more than eight in ten people donated money and more than six in ten (63%) volunteered time.

“Indonesia’s philanthropic culture of collective actions – or, as we call it, gotong royong
– has always been evident within Indonesia, and it is a pleasure to see it being
recognised for its strengths and sparking interest abroad as well.
Religious giving strongly influences Indonesia’s giving culture, with zakat driving the
philanthropic work of many. Zakat defines giving to the vulnerable and needy as a
religious duty for all Muslims who meet the necessary wealth criteria. This practice
also applies to other religions in Indonesia. Indonesia is the world’s most populous
Muslim-majority country and is home to 231 million Muslims.
The younger generations in Indonesia also have significant interest and support for
charity and philanthropy activities. Young people are driving uptake of digital giving
platforms, which help donation processes operate more quickly, safely, and easily.
The growing private wealth of many Indonesians has likely also contributed to an
observable increase in philanthropic activity across the country – not just in the
capital city but also at the regional level from east to west. Indonesia’s philanthropic
eco-system is also growing increasingly sophisticated and diverse with collaboration
and collective action as its heart.”

Rizal Algamar, Chairman of the Executive Board, Indonesia Philanthropy Association

World Giving Index 2022 | CAF

The CAF World Giving Index 2022 provides insight into the scope and nature of giving around the world.

www.cafonline.org

 

[jstar]

It’s a shame PepsiCo made that deal on the chips so Lays disappeared (for some years). They still sell it but for the parallel import in Grand Lucky or so, you pay the grand prize.

It really is amazing how products here are pulled off the market without any communication or warning. After the whole Sprite thing the Coke Zero 1,5 liter bottles also disappeared and its cans are often also hard to find. The same with the Schweppes Soda and now even Tonic. And suddenly they introduced tiny bottles of Fanta Soda?! Wonder how long that will last.

And they are back!

In 1 liter bottles but at a rather good price…

 

[Shadrach]

This post is great! It goes from Religion, to Politics, to Chicks with Dicks, to Soda Drinks! If a person says something criticizing the Leader, they get re- educated! That sounds scary to me! Something like getting sent to a Camp in Northern Siberia!
These subjects are ones that I heard should never be brought at the dinner table, because no one will ever Agree! Bob Marley wrote a song about being sick and tired, of them, Isms, Kisms! Very Appropriate Now!