No More Inefficient or Intolerant Indonesia - Jokowi's New Vision

jstar

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And the BUMNs have 85 hotels in their possession while the state owned PT Hotel Indonesia Natour, which focuses specifically on the hotel industry, owns a measly 12 hotels.

It was to be expected that the amount of 85 hotels that were owned by BUMNs (state-owned companies) turned out to be higher; it is 94.

Now Thohir has put together a team that got the charter to place these 94 hotels in the state-owned company group INNA, the one we discussed before.

That will be quite a complex operation because of weird company structures.
 

Mangotree

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I think Indonesians in general are very friendly but don't mistake that for tolerance. Racism and bigotry are normal and clichés about other ethnic groups are still used everywhere. I’m not sure what a president plans to do to change that.
Sadly and unexpectedly I was just told by my Indonesian friends in Medan that there is now an under-current of anti-bule feeling emerging.
 

Nimbus

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Now the KPK has caught a big fish. The biggest fish. Literally the Minister for Fish.
This is gonna be interesting, the guy is Prabowo’s second-in-command. Will they go for the biggest fish next? One can only hope.
 

Dave70

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This is gonna be interesting, the guy is Prabowo’s second-in-command. Will they go for the biggest fish next? One can only hope.

The biggest fish is "untouchable", SHE is too big to catch.
 

Dave70

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A police officer threatened to kill Rizieq if he goes too far in destroying this country.

He was not honored for his bravery and patriotism but instead being labeled "oknum" by the same police force he served. He is now being detained/investigated for his heroic actions.

What's worse is the release of his rank/initials and picture to the press, it's the equivalent of doxxing. Now he is vulnerable to attacks by the radicals, that is no way to treat someone who served and loved his country.


Mahfud MD was also threatened by radicals which "demonstrated" in his mother's house in the kampung. The objective is to terrorize MD by targeting family members, this is bad for the country if those radicals are allowed to roam free.

 
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Lungbon

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A police officer threatened to kill Rizieq if he goes too far in destroying this country.

He was not honored for his bravery and patriotism but instead being labeled "oknum" by the same police force he served. He is now being detained/investigated for his heroic actions.
So in what country is it 'brave' and 'patriottic' to threaten to kill religious and political opponents? Nowhere civilised. It is a foolish and dangerous thing to do.

I won't mourn a single second over Rizieq's death, but of he'd be murdered because of his religious and political opinions, this will quite probably cause a shitstorm. The 212 demos will look like a picknick compared to what can happen after an assassination of a person like Rizieq.
 

dafluff

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A police officer threatened to kill Rizieq if he goes too far in destroying this country.

He was not honored for his bravery and patriotism but instead being labeled "oknum" by the same police force he served. He is now being detained/investigated for his heroic actions.

A police officer threatening to kill a member of the public, even if it is Rizieq, is not patriotic or heroic. Getting his dumb ass detained and investigated is 100% the correct move here.
 

Dave70

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@Lungbon , @dafluff

What motivated me to write post #69 is not to praise or expose the bravery or patriotism of the police officer. What drove me was the “doxxing” done by the police to their own member. How can they do this to him?

I’m not saying the police officer did something wise, he did something stupid alright, but that’s not to say he’s dumb, the smartest person can sometimes do something stupid too.

He is brave no doubt, a coward would not dare to say something like that.

He is patriotic too, otherwise, he won’t put his own life in danger for the sake of the country.

Did you read the article? He said, “Demi tuhan saya sebagai orang Muslim juga warga negara tidak gentar sedikitpun kepada FPI, Rizieq dan kroni-kroninya, dan demi Allah saya siap membabat lehernya kalau sampai berpolah yang terlalu jauh, apalagi sampai menghancurkan NKRI ini”.

Strong words indeed, very patriotic. Every Indonesians should be proud of him. Once again, not saying he did a wise thing. But not many would risk their life for a country.

BTW, it’s important to note that he said IF (if Rizieq goes too far in destroying Indonesia). So it’s just a warning, he is not set out to do it now.
 
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HappyMan

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In the abstract, and not at all as relates to Rizieq, it's interesting to ponder when a person should be considered a patriot and when an outlaw. There have been any number of despots and war criminals thought history who, in retrospect, should have been killed by a single brave citizen willing to pay the price. At what point would it have been justifiable (in retrospect) to kill the many great monsters we have spawned? Should someone have waited to kill Hitler until after he actually started committing genocide, or would it have been justifiable to do it while he was still talking about committing genocide?

Speaking of anarchy in more specific terms, if I knew that the person who killed my child was walking around free, I would consider it my duty to end them. (My child is alive and well.) I would accept any price that the government expected me to pay. I wouldn't accept the price willingly, there is such a thing as justice, but I acknowledge that personal injustice is one of the costs of a functional society. Also, I suspect this to be the actual intended use of the pardon, to see justice done in spite of law.

Returning to the topic of Rizieq, whether you believe the police officer is a brave patriot or a madman inciting violence, the price is the same. If there was bravery, it was in his willingness to brave the price.
 

Nimbus

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I’m not a friend of Rizieq, but I don’t support any threat to life, overt or subtle. This is Indonesia, such threats are not always as empty as you like them to be.

Indonesians have killed millions of fellow Indonesians “for the sake of the country.” The military in my youth had a habit of disappearing problematic people from time to time. Before you cheer them when they’re taking out your opponents, remember that they can do the same to you.
 

dafluff

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@Lungbon , @dafluff

What motivated me to write post #69 is not to praise or expose the bravery or patriotism of the police officer. What drove me was the “doxxing” done by the police to their own member. How can they do this to him?

I’m not saying the police officer did something wise, he did something stupid alright, but that’s not to say he’s dumb, the smartest person can sometimes do something stupid too.

He is brave no doubt, a coward would not dare to say something like that.

He is patriotic too, otherwise, he won’t put his own life in danger for the sake of the country.

Did you read the article? He said, “Demi tuhan saya sebagai orang Muslim juga warga negara tidak gentar sedikitpun kepada FPI, Rizieq dan kroni-kroninya, dan demi Allah saya siap membabat lehernya kalau sampai berpolah yang terlalu jauh, apalagi sampai menghancurkan NKRI ini”.

Strong words indeed, very patriotic. Every Indonesians should be proud of him. Once again, not saying he did a wise thing. But not many would risk their life for a country.

BTW, it’s important to note that he said IF (if Rizieq goes too far in destroying Indonesia). So it’s just a warning, he is not set out to do it now.

He is a dumbass for recording the video with his face and voice clearly identifiable, threatening to behead a member of the public, and him being a police officer makes it even more so. Whether this is brave is debatable. To me, bravery is doing the right thing even when you are scared to do it, or when it is detrimental to yourself. This guy did something that was detrimental to himself, but it was not the right thing to do.

Saying every Indonesian should be proud of a rogue, possibly mentally deranged, police officer who records videos threatening to extra-judicially behead someone, is just incredibly ignorant.
 

Dave70

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Saying every Indonesian should be proud of a rogue, possibly mentally deranged, police officer who records videos threatening to extra-judicially behead someone, is just incredibly ignorant.

We are looking at different angles, you view it from high above while I view it from down below.

You are like the judge coming to a decision that the police officer is rogue while I see him as a hero.

Like Robin Hood, he is a criminal because he stole from rich. But to the poor, he is their hero because the bounty is distributed to them.

Yes, I agree that Robin Hood committed crime, so he is a criminal. Likewise, the police officer is rogue because he threatened to extra-judicially kill someone.

As I said, it was not wise (not the right thing to do). But he is a hero for standing up to Rizieq. And I cannot help but admire him for his willingness to sacrifice himself for the good of the country. How many people can you think of who can stand up to Rizieq, and challenge him as well? How many people is willing to die for their country?
 

harryopal

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Extra judicial police killings have been part of the unpleasant realities of life in many countries. Here in Indonesia it seems the police can with impunity inflict punishments upon many suspects before trial. It seems a daily occurrence that we see pre trial offenders paraded for the media for alleged offences with the perpetrators shuffling along with bandaged legs or in wheel chairs where it seems they have been shot in the leg or had bones broken as a warning to others. I can't believe that many offenders try to run away when the police can also shoot to kill.

And even if one shared the sentiment of the officer in this case. as Lungbon pointed out, the violent consequences could be appalling.
 

HappyMan

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The fact that he is a police officer does make the whole thing somewhat more problematic, I suppose. Lawlessness in those who are tasked with enforcing the law is particularly dangerous.

I don't really know much about Rizieq aside from the stuff that made the news. That, and that the organization he leads is pretty horrible. Does he support the death penalty for things like gay sex?
 

Vulgarian

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Are we honestly chin-stroking over whether death threats are OK when it's someone we don't like?

Come on, chaps. Murder is bad, mmkay. This is not a controversial take. Thou shalt not and all that. Crikey.
 

dafluff

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We are looking at different angles, you view it from high above while I view it from down below.

You are like the judge coming to a decision that the police officer is rogue while I see him as a hero.

Like Robin Hood, he is a criminal because he stole from rich. But to the poor, he is their hero because the bounty is distributed to them.

Yes, I agree that Robin Hood committed crime, so he is a criminal. Likewise, the police officer is rogue because he threatened to extra-judicially kill someone.

As I said, it was not wise (not the right thing to do). But he is a hero for standing up to Rizieq. And I cannot help but admire him for his willingness to sacrifice himself for the good of the country. How many people can you think of who can stand up to Rizieq, and challenge him as well? How many people is willing to die for their country?

No. There are things that are illegal but moral (Robin Hood, some would say), but what this cop did was both illegal and amoral. You think this deranged cop is a hero because he shares your view, and you are willing to overlook clear wrongdoings on his part because of it. This is not looking from a different angle, this is a lack of principle, and hypocrisy.
 

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