Dual citizenship, how likely is it?

[Wisnu]

Don't hold your breath. The discourse about dual citizenship is always rewarmed before the election, just a bit too early now.
Once the election over, they will put it inside the drawer.
I don't see this will be different but I'm glad if I'm wrong as I do have an interest.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

I guess what we are talking about here for the mixed children is UU12/2006:

(3) Pernyataan untuk memilih kewarganegaraan
sebagaimana dimaksud pada ayat (2) disampaikan dalam
waktu paling lambat 3 (tiga) tahun setelah anak berusia
18 (delapan belas) tahun atau sudah kawin

It seems strange that this Yasonna person would not mention this UU in his speech, but let's hope there can be an update of the 2006 law at some point over the next few years, since I'm sure one day it will be updated. People doubted if the 2006 and 2011 laws would happen, but they did, so let's be optimistic, like with the new mosque loudspeaker rules. I do admire those people who fight against the odds to get these legal changes through even if takes a long time to achieve, if ever.

 

[xindo]

until the chauvinistic mentality is gone, the idea of dual citizenship is like thinking to go the moon with my tacoma

 

[pantaiema]

until the chauvinistic mentality is gone, the idea of dual citizenship is like thinking to go the moon with my tacoma

A clear example of this sort of chauvinistic mindset in Indonesia is the divide between 'pribumi' vs Indonesian citizens of mixed race or Chinese descent. Many Indonesians even millenials, Gen-z who have witnessed how the global world have changed still call themselves as 'pribumi' and they still believe they have a greater right to live in Indonesia than people, children from mixed backgrounds and/or Chinese-Indonesian heritage, even if those individuals have been Indonesian citizens for three or four generations. Now, imagine if such mindset were to persist in countries like Australia, the U.S., Canada, New Zealand, or South Africa, etc. In terms of historical ties and degree of ownership / tie to the land, Indonesia's 'pribumi' are not even anywhere near to the indigenous populations like Aboriginal Australians or Native Indian Americans.

Because of this mentality, it is difficult for someone from a minority background, such as Ahok (who is of Chinese-Indonesian descent, or 'Cindo'), to be elected as a governor. In Indonesia, we have yet to see a person from a mixed-race or Chinese-Indonesian background rise to the highest political offices, like we have seen with Rishi Sunak in the UK, Barack Obama in the US, Alberto Fujimori in Peru, Leo Varadkar in Ireland, or Kamala Harris (now a presidential candidate) in the US, Nicolas Sarkozy in France.

Apart from chauvinism, blind nationalism, a historical product which no longer suit to the concept of modern world is another reason why dual citizenship is unlikely to be introduced in Indonesia anytime soon. This has been confirmed by the minister, Yasonna responsible for the issue as discussed in here.

Indonesian immigration view on CRBA

Hey everyone, A CRBA is a Consular Reported Birth Abroad via the US Embassy. An SS# and Passport are a separate process but this would be the first step. Does immigration here judge this as foreign citizenship? Any experience or opinions are appreciated.

www.expatindo.org

Dual Passport/Citizenship Borderless Travel etc

I think we should explore the reasons why anyone would wish to have two passports. I suppose ease of travel is the big one for most, but that comes with responsibilities. Ukraine's dual citizens found that out to their cost. The main advantages of having multiple nationalities: Increased...

www.expatindo.org

 

[centurion]

In Indonesia, we have yet to see a person from a mixed-race or Chinese-Indonesian background rise to the highest political offices,

Prabowo,president, half-Chinese, Gus Dur, president, Chinese by origin, Raden Patah, the first sultan of Demak, half-Chinese, to mention a few.

 

[pantaiema]

Prabowo,president, half-Chinese, Gus Dur, president, Chinese by origin, Raden Patah, the first sultan of Demak, half-Chinese, to mention a few.

Prabowo Half-Chinese? Gus Dur (Abdurrahman Wahid) of Chinese descent, not considered "orang Indonesia Asli" (pribumi)? That is interesting

Remember, Gus Dur became president when the Indonesian Constitution still included the phrase "Presiden ialah orang Indonesia asli". It were amended later.

Prabowo’s father was from Central Java, and his mother was a Protestant Christian of Minahasan descent. If you trace Minahasan ancestry in North Sulawesi several centuries back, many would certainly have some Chinese lineage, as they belong to the Austronesian group, which originated from China, Taiwan, and the Philippines due to their geographical proximity. It is quite similar to Bataknese. I am fully aware that Gus Dur himself openly identified as having Chinese heritage to challenge the idea that Chinese Indonesians do not belong in Indonesia. What he said is true if you want to trace back a few hundred years ago; The people like Gur Dur, Sultan Demak have a Chinese origin.

The discussion about who belong to 'Indonesia asli (pribumi)' could be a never ending discussion. But ask Indonesian people how many of them would say that Prabowo or Gus Dur are not "orang Indonesia asli" (pribumi). The fact that Gus Dur became president before the constitutional amendment speaks for itself.

Now compare this with:

• Rishi Sunak, whose father, of Indian origin, was born in colonial Kenya, and whose mother was born in Tanzania.
• Barack Obama, whose father was born in Kenya.
• Alberto Fujimori, whose parents were natives of Japan, who migrated to Peru.
• Leo Varadkar, whose father was born in Mumbai, India.

All these leaders are first-generation descendants of immigrants (not even third or fourth generation like many 'cindo').

Yet, many Indonesian millennials, Gen-Zs, despite witnessing global change, still identify themselves as native 'pribumi' and believe they have more entitlement to live in Indonesia than those of Chinese descent or from mixed marriages. The only truly native Indonesians are the ethnic groups in remote villages of Papua, Borneo, etc., who rarely travel and only marry within their own clans.

 

[jstar]

Prabowo…. half-Chinese

 

[centurion]

Gus Dur (Abdurrahman Wahid) of Chinese descent, not considered "orang Indonesia Asli" (pribumi)? That is interesting

Pengakuan Gus Dur sebagai Seorang Keturunan Tionghoa... Halaman all - Kompas.com

“Saya ini China tulen sebenarnya, tapi ya sudah nyampur-lah dengan Arab dan India. Nenek moyang saya orang Tionghoa asli,” ungkap Gus Dur, 2008. Halaman all

nasional.kompas.com

 

[centurion]

Prabowo Half-Chinese?

Half Chinese from both sides, says people close to the matter. Photo speaks thousand words (Prabowo, brother, sisters with mother).

 

[centurion]

A clear example of this sort of chauvinistic mindset in Indonesia is the divide between 'pribumi' vs Indonesian citizens of mixed race or Chinese descent. Many Indonesians even millenials, Gen-z who have witnessed how the global world have changed still call themselves as 'pribumi' and they still believe they have a greater right to live in Indonesia than people, children from mixed backgrounds and/or Chinese-Indonesian heritage, even if those individuals have been Indonesian citizens for three or four generations. Now, imagine if such mindset were to persist in countries like Australia, the U.S., Canada, New Zealand, or South Africa, etc. In terms of historical ties and degree of ownership / tie to the land, Indonesia's 'pribumi' are not even anywhere near to the indigenous populations like Aboriginal Australians or Native Indian Americans.

Because of this mentality, it is difficult for someone from a minority background, such as Ahok (who is of Chinese-Indonesian descent, or 'Cindo'), to be elected as a governor. In Indonesia, we have yet to see a person from a mixed-race or Chinese-Indonesian background rise to the highest political offices, like we have seen with Rishi Sunak in the UK, Barack Obama in the US, Alberto Fujimori in Peru, Leo Varadkar in Ireland, or Kamala Harris (now a presidential candidate) in the US, Nicolas Sarkozy in France.

Apart from chauvinism, blind nationalism, a historical product which no longer suit to the concept of modern world is another reason why dual citizenship is unlikely to be introduced in Indonesia anytime soon. This has been confirmed by the minister, Yasonna responsible for the issue as discussed in here.

Indonesian immigration view on CRBA

Hey everyone, A CRBA is a Consular Reported Birth Abroad via the US Embassy. An SS# and Passport are a separate process but this would be the first step. Does immigration here judge this as foreign citizenship? Any experience or opinions are appreciated.

www.expatindo.org

Dual Passport/Citizenship Borderless Travel etc

I think we should explore the reasons why anyone would wish to have two passports. I suppose ease of travel is the big one for most, but that comes with responsibilities. Ukraine's dual citizens found that out to their cost. The main advantages of having multiple nationalities: Increased...

www.expatindo.org

Prabowo,president, half-Chinese, Gus Dur, president, Chinese by origin, Raden Patah, the first sultan of Demak, half-Chinese, to mention a few.

Forgot Eric Thohir, but he is not elected official.

 

[jstar]

Half Chinese from both sides, says people close to the matter. Photo speaks thousand words (Prabowo, brother, sisters with mother).

I think you really need to depend less on gossip and your personal political beliefs and visit areas like Minahasa once.

 

[centurion]

I think you really need to depend less on gossip and your personal political beliefs and visit areas like Minahasa once.

What kind of personal political beleifs you have on mind?

 

[centurion]

All these leaders are first-generation descendants of immigrants (not even third or fourth generation like many 'cindo').

First genereation-descendants in Indonesia, from publicly visible jobs, can only be exotic movie actors. If you have not aged few generations here you cannot hold any elected public office.

 

[Shadrach]

This kind of stupidity is also prevalent in America now. All these ignorant right wing Trump supporters, believe they are the only true pure Americans. And Trump and his cronies, push that agenda to only make more hatred, anger, fear, prejudice, and to push closing the borders. Remember the partial wall? It disgust me to even say I am from America, if America didn't have these people from other countries, nothing would get done. All the cooks, housekeepers, farmworkers, hotel workers, etc. are from foreign soil. Even some high positioned jobs, Brain surgeons, nurses, executives, etc. are foreigners.
These ignorant people forget, they're ancestors, were all immigrants. Remember the poor massacred Native Americans!
And if the stories of mass migrations over the frozen Barron sea, the ancestors of the American Natives were from Asia, .so really no one is a pure native!
Everyone has the same basic needs, clean air, water, healthy food, a home for their family, and hopefully a better education for their children. Regardless of origin.

 

[pantaiema]

This kind of stupidity is also prevalent in America now. All these ignorant right wing Trump supporters, believe they are the only true pure Americans. And Trump and his cronies, push that agenda to only make more hatred, anger, fear, prejudice, and to push closing the borders. Remember the partial wall? It disgust me to even say I am from America, if America didn't have these people from other countries, nothing would get done. All the cooks, housekeepers, farmworkers, hotel workers, etc. are from foreign soil. Even some high positioned jobs, Brain surgeons, nurses, executives, etc. are foreigners.
These ignorant people forget, they're ancestors, were all immigrants. Remember the poor massacred Native Americans!
And if the stories of mass migrations over the frozen Barron sea, the ancestors of the American Natives were from Asia, .so really no one is a pure native!
Everyone has the same basic needs, clean air, water, healthy food, a home for their family, and hopefully a better education for their children. Regardless of origin.

The key difference between Indonesia and other countries is that, in many other nations, people are legally protected against discrimination. In Indonesia, however, there remains a sub-culture and practice where people are still publicly told to "return to their ancestral country," even if they are third or fourth-generation Indonesians. These individuals might no longer have any ties, family, or relatives in those countries and are not citizens there. Such remarks come from a sense of entitlement by some who believe they have a greater right to live in Indonesia.

While this practice has decreased compared to the Suharto era, it still occurs frequently, and those making such statements face no consequences. This is in stark contrast to other countries, where many public figures, like those mentioned previously, are first-generation descendants of immigrants, far from the third or fourth generation like many 'cindo' or those from mixed marriages. Additionally, in other nations, a significant number of ministers, members of parliament, and other officials are from immigrant backgrounds without facing this kind of mentality.

 

[pantaiema]

First genereation-descendants in Indonesia, from publicly visible jobs, can only be exotic movie actors. If you have not aged few generations here you cannot hold any elected public office.

There are numerous documentaries about Chinese Indonesians of Chinese descent. These are the stories that Indonesian millennials and Gen-Z, who still refer to themselves as "pribumi" and believe they have a greater right to live in Indonesia, should learn. However, some of them, especially those with a chauvinistic mentality, are too lazy to read history.

Some Chinese Indonesians are even 8th generation, not just 3rd or 4th, with ancestors who came to Indonesia as early as 1408.


Not to mention, many Chinese Indonesians in Singkawang. 'amoy singkawang' in Kalimantan which are already a few generation of Chinese descendant. Under Suharto's regime, Chinese descendants faced significant discrimination and were often treated as second-class citizens. They encountered major obstacles in gaining admission to state universities, becoming civil servants, or joining the Indonesian army.

In 2016 there was a new movement by the PPP (United Development Party), sometimes called 'Ka'bah' party to amend the Indonesian constitution to reinstate the phrase "presiden dan wakil presiden adalah warga negara Indonesia asli" and they keep raising this issue.

If this movement is not halted, what will happen to the first generation of mixed marriages with individuals from China, Taiwan, Singapore, Japan, Europe, Russia, the U.S., and other countries? Is it only a matter of time before they are treated as second-class Indonesian citizens, unable to own land, barred from state universities, or prevented from becoming civil servants or joining the Indonesian army? The world has evolved. Just look at figures like Rishi Sunak in the UK, Barack Obama in the US, Alberto Fujimori in Peru, Leo Varadkar in Ireland, Kamala Harris in the US, and Nicolas Sarkozy in France. Those who still cling to the term 'orang Indonesia asli or pribumi' are often those who struggle to compete nationally, let alone globally, and thus seek protection. It is worth noting that they are far from being indigenous settlers like the aboriginals in Australia or the original inhabitants of North America, American Indian.

 

[m17tgw]

I can understand Indonesia with the Single Citizenship rule etc and regarding looking out for its own people, that way of life in itself has it's positives, my only comment is that based on us foreigners married to Indonesian Citizens, you would think there would be a slightly better pathway for us who actually want to give up there entirety of life from there native homeland E.G UK, and want to build a life and grow our world making Indonesia our home.

I Married my wife in 2023 all done through the right channels through British Embassy & hired Lawyers got Prenup Agreement in place registration all done, our lawyers who handled all documents from start to finish, said to me I can now Prepare your first 1 year Kitas, explaining the rule was changing later that year for a beneficial 2 year option, I simply explained because I don't have immediate employment rights I have to go home,

I even pointed out in my marriage law paperwork that she had translated to me, it states the Man is Number One of the family, The Provider for a home to support the wife, She as Number Two Respectfully runs the home and the children etc, so I said that's your definition in law, and you allow me to reside here legally, she said yes we're a culture built up on family it's important to live with your wife etc we let you reside here legally, I just said perhaps yes but how am I supposed to provide a home Mortgage/rent and consider children with no means of income??

This is why two years on of marriage I fly in two - Three times a year, £3000 a year on average on cost of international flights to maintain my relationship, which could be better spent on a home and into Indonesian community's and I'm planning to do 6 months in Indonesia and 6 months to work in UK until an opportunity keeps me there. Understand the situation and fully accept it but I think as a spouse like many of us here, it could just be that little easier to get our foot in the door.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

It is possible to work if you get a work permit or just do remote working for a foreign company. You can also at some point get an Indonesian passport while giving up your original one.

However the problem with giving automatic employment rights to all spouses of Indonesians is that they are probably concerned that it would take work away from locals. You could argue that such people should be considered locals anyway!

 

[m17tgw]

It is possible to work if you get a work permit or just do remote working for a foreign company. You can also at some point get an Indonesian passport while giving up your original one.

However the problem with giving automatic employment rights to all spouses of Indonesians is that they are probably concerned that it would take work away from locals. You could argue that such people should be considered locals anyway!

I'd consider Citizenship in years to come for sure, not to change the pages topic? But assuming I can work e.g foreign company online etc, immigration website states have to report with the multiple report process, does anyone know here what this involves? Is it just an interview with a yes no outcome and registering for tax purposes etc?

Anybody here ever done this?

 

[jstar]

foreign company ……….. have to report with the multiple report process, does anyone know here what this involves?

Just search for LKPM and SPT.