Dual citizenship, how likely is it?

[dannyboy]

Are we wishing upon a star?

I know a while back there was some sort of push by the diaspora community to get the discussion rolling in the parliement.

I know this seems very unlikely, but part of me as an ex is hoping that at least there is some sort of concession for ex like us, no?

 

[nd_eric_77]

Are we wishing upon a star?

I know a while back there was some sort of push by the diaspora community to get the discussion rolling in the parliement.

I know this seems very unlikely, but part of me as an ex is hoping that at least there is some sort of concession for ex like us, no?

The two major political currents in the past 15-20 years of Indonesian politics have been Nationalism vs. Shariah. Nationalists are often openly hostile to the idea of dual citizenship (despite the fact that there have been high-profile cases of government ministers holding dual passports), and the Islamist / Shariah side does not have much interest in dual citizenship either. Hence dual citizenship does not seem to have enough support to be implemented in my lifetime.

 

[SamR]

I’m all for dual citizenship but the best we can hope for is for slow but steady progress...if any.

Infrastructure, access to education, poverty, pandemy, corruption...I think there’s a lot of other issues in front of us in the “to do list”.

That and it’s easy to dimiss us as “not nationalists”.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Are we wishing upon a star?

I know a while back there was some sort of push by the diaspora community to get the discussion rolling in the parliement.

I know this seems very unlikely, but part of me as an ex is hoping that at least there is some sort of concession for ex like us, no?

There are already concessions, in terms of the easier path to getting a KITAP.

The two main advantages of citizenship are 1) being able to own land and 2) not needing a work permit. Any further concessions on these points (without granting citizenship) are extremely unlikely because of the key laws that would need to be updated, needing big political support. Either of these (land ownership / removing restrictions on work for ex-WNI) would be a much bigger deal than the Omnibus Law, and look how difficult that was to get through.

 

[dafluff]

There are already concessions, in terms of the easier path to getting a KITAP.

The two main advantages of citizenship are 1) being able to own land and 2) not needing a work permit. Any further concessions on these points (without granting citizenship) are extremely unlikely because of the key laws that would need to be updated, needing big political support. Either of these (land ownership / removing restrictions on work for ex-WNI) would be a much bigger deal than the Omnibus Law, and look how difficult that was to get through.

The biggest advantage of citizenship is the right to never be kicked out of Indonesia, such as the case would be if you are still a foreigner.

 

[dannyboy]

Thanks all, looks like it is going to be a while before anything substantial happen.

Meanwhile, perhaps we can keep this thread open to post any recent update in relation to this matter.

 

[Banana72]

Pessimistic side of me says for land ownership is almost impossible. A more clear, strong, supportive law for ex-wni not needing work permit is a bit more possible in my opinion.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Pessimistic side of me says for land ownership is almost impossible. A more clear, strong, supportive law for ex-wni not needing work permit is a bit more possible in my opinion.

Of the 3 issues:
1 - land ownership for ex-WNI (very very unlikely)
2 - work permits not needed for ex-WNI (unlikely but possible)
3 - right not to be deported for ex-WNI (very unlikely)

 

[SamR]

Pessimistic side of me says for land ownership is almost impossible. A more clear, strong, supportive law for ex-wni not needing work permit is a bit more possible in my opinion.

I agree. Dual citizenship is perhaps a long shot, but something more related to economic rights is more likely.

 

[dannyboy]

Agree re. economic rights. Which I think it should be the case for spouse sponsored too. This would be in line with most other countries out there?

 

[SamR]

Agree re. economic rights. Which I think it should be the case for spouse sponsored too. This would be in line with most other countries out there?

It would certainly bring it into line with the permanent residency in Australia. You get everything except voting and getting a government jobs with a permanent residency there.

 

[Banana72]

I'm wondering about the latest update on ex-wni buying apartments....how did that go? If we're allowed to buy at a lower minimum (say 1 Billiion) than the proposed 5 Billion https://www.cekindo.com/services/land-property-ownership, or at least able to own/inherit a (main) property as living residence. The thing about a minimum purchase value is...if an apartment is 'valued' at 1.1 Billion, but one is able to negotiate the price to 950, is he/she out of luck? Not sure how that works yet...

 

[Sine]

Same here can’t wait for it becomes reality. Isn't that Jokowi promise the diaspora for dual citizenship but it seems no progress being made. I hate the feeling of asking for permission just to live peacefully in our home. It’s not like we are some kind of terrorist or some kind of bad guys. Man I just want to spend my day peacefully with my elderly parents. They way most officers give us the look once they found out we are ex are infuriating and upsetting.

I’m all for dual citizenship. I guess if we are holding some kind of office at the National level then we have to choose because of the security reasons, but hell if we are just regular citizen what can we do. I’m not really familiar with history, laws and socio-politic pertaining to Indo’s perception of dual citizenship, but In my bias and subjective opinion, it’s freaking inhumane for treating / making us go through bunch of bs regulation just to live quietly in our homes. I see Indonesia and my current nationality as mom and dad, It’s downright evil to make us choose one or the other. Where is the “Kemanusian yg adil dan beradab”? It’s not how we treat human being by playing with their livelihood. I think I have ptsd from asking stay permit here, always stress out and depressed whenever I’m thinking of going there. My mood just straight up sh*tty 2 months before my permit expired and 2 months after. We need to make some changes here, aren’t we are human too? We have basic human right.... Sorry for not being active here, bc everytime I’m talking or thinking about stay permit my mood just tanked. I don’t know if all exes here feel the same way too

 

[dannyboy]

Same here can’t wait for it becomes reality. Isn't that Jokowi promise the diaspora for dual citizenship but it seems no progress being made. I hate the feeling of asking for permission just to live peacefully in our home. It’s not like we are some kind of terrorist or some kind of bad guys. Man I just want to spend my day peacefully with my elderly parents. They way most officers give us the look once they found out we are ex are infuriating and upsetting.

I’m all for dual citizenship. I guess if we are holding some kind of office at the National level then we have to choose because of the security reasons, but hell if we are just regular citizen what can we do. I’m not really familiar with history, laws and socio-politic pertaining to Indo’s perception of dual citizenship, but In my bias and subjective opinion, it’s freaking inhumane for treating / making us go through bunch of bs regulation just to live quietly in our homes. I see Indonesia and my current nationality as mom and dad, It’s downright evil to make us choose one or the other. Where is the “Kemanusian yg adil dan beradab”? It’s not how we treat human being by playing with their livelihood. I think I have ptsd from asking stay permit here, always stress out and depressed whenever I’m thinking of going there. My mood just straight up sh*tty 2 months before my permit expired and 2 months after. We need to make some changes here, aren’t we are human too? We have basic human right.... Sorry for not being active here, bc everytime I’m talking or thinking about stay permit my mood just tanked. I don’t know if all exes here feel the same way too

I feel you, man. I am sure many of us here are feeling the same way too.

 

[SamR]

Isn't that Jokowi promise the diaspora for dual citizenship but it seems no progress being made

I think the diaspora is in a strategic place to apply pressure. Diaspora in this case meaning Indonesians/ex-Indonesians who have become successful overseas and get a lot of spotlight and publicity whenever there’s a diaspora gathering etc.

They’re in a strategic place because they have or are building a “jalur” to lobby, they have (financial) influence, and the most important thing, odds are they themselves or someone in their family are WNA.

But so far the only thing they’ve achieved is the Kartu Diaspora and even then they know that it’s not much.
(https://news.detik.com/abc-australi...diaspora-indonesia-mendapat-tanggapan-negatif)

 

[Banana72]

I actually posted in one of their youtube's KMILN discussion... round and round about ex-wni and diaspora's rights just to create another card that is only confusing people more. It's supposed to just be used to keep track/pendataan of the WNI's overseas.. Very typical in my opinion. Kinda like painting an almost falling bridge because making it look pretty is much easier than actually fixing the problem. If they really really want to make a difference, dive into the KiTAP process, especially for the Ex-WNIs. If the Indonesian government is really that fearful of the foreigners getting into and settling in Indonesia for whatever reason, with all due respect to 'other foreigners' who marry Indonesian citizens...then, they need to really create extra supportive clauses in the law for the Exes (house ownership, limited land ownership, work permit, etc).

p.s. not only it was useless..it's also rather cumbersome to say too...kinda like the old "KIMS" (people had to say it like "Kim-Es")

 

[SamR]

I actually posted in one of their youtube's MILN discussion... round and round about ex-wni and diaspora's rights just to create another card that is only confusing people more. It's supposed to just be used to keep track/pendataan of the WNI's overseas.. Very typical in my opinion. Kinda like painting an almost falling bridge because making it look pretty is much easier than actually fixing the problem. If they really really want to make a difference, dive into the KiTAP process, especially for the Ex-WNIs. If the Indonesian government is really that fearful of the foreigners getting into and settling in Indonesia for whatever reason, with all due respect to 'other foreigners' who marry Indonesian citizens...then, they need to really create extra supportive clauses in the law for the Exes (house ownership, limited land ownership, work permit, etc).

Yeah the whole diaspora card thing smells like the Ministry of Foreign Affairs wanting to get into the “Issuing cards” business rather than anything

I completely agree with your suggestions. I would add also:

-On the ex-WNI Kitap: get the bureaucracy familiar with it to the point where the people entitled to it are directed to it rather than being given the run-around. Otherwise, it’s just a bunch of writing in the Kanim Immigration locket room that no one reads.

-I would add some support clauses not only for work permits but also setting up businesses. I supposed because exes are considered WNAs, that means their PT is a foreign company but a foreign company needs Rp. 10 billion. If I want to set up a CV, it can’t be done because no WNAs are allowed to set up CV.

 

[Dharma Police]

Same here can’t wait for it becomes reality. Isn't that Jokowi promise the diaspora for dual citizenship but it seems no progress being made. I hate the feeling of asking for permission just to live peacefully in our home. It’s not like we are some kind of terrorist or some kind of bad guys. Man I just want to spend my day peacefully with my elderly parents. They way most officers give us the look once they found out we are ex are infuriating and upsetting.

I’m all for dual citizenship. I guess if we are holding some kind of office at the National level then we have to choose because of the security reasons, but hell if we are just regular citizen what can we do. I’m not really familiar with history, laws and socio-politic pertaining to Indo’s perception of dual citizenship, but In my bias and subjective opinion, it’s freaking inhumane for treating / making us go through bunch of bs regulation just to live quietly in our homes. I see Indonesia and my current nationality as mom and dad, It’s downright evil to make us choose one or the other. Where is the “Kemanusian yg adil dan beradab”? It’s not how we treat human being by playing with their livelihood. I think I have ptsd from asking stay permit here, always stress out and depressed whenever I’m thinking of going there. My mood just straight up sh*tty 2 months before my permit expired and 2 months after. We need to make some changes here, aren’t we are human too? We have basic human right.... Sorry for not being active here, bc everytime I’m talking or thinking about stay permit my mood just tanked. I don’t know if all exes here feel the same way too

I'm always wary of any politician's campaign promise if it sounds too good to be true.

 

[Nimbus]

Indonesian bureaucrats love to create bureaucratic processes. They create control, and that control can sometimes be milked for personal and party advantage. Besides, it’s a problem for the population, not for them.

I spoke to an ambassador who wanted to reinstitute Suharto-era exit permits. Why? Just so he can have data on WNI exiting the country to visit / immigrate to his post. Imagine the headache created just so a guy can have data.

As for dual citizenship, it’s not gonna happen in my lifetime. The nationalists are hostile to the idea of accomodating petty traitors, while the religious hard liners aren’t keen on helping Indonesians with western passports.

An idea that I keep floating to anyone willing to listen is Overseas Citizenship, like India. It’s not dual citizenship, but it confers limited rights to foreigners with past Indonesian citizenship. These privileges would include property rights in certain areas and of certain amount, as well as the right to live indefinitely and work non-governmental jobs in the country.

 

[dannyboy]

An idea that I keep floating to anyone willing to listen is Overseas Citizenship, like India. It’s not dual citizenship, but it confers limited rights to foreigners with past Indonesian citizenship. These privileges would include property rights in certain areas and of certain amount, as well as the right to live indefinitely and work non-governmental jobs in the country.

Hi Nimbus, thanks for the thought.

Do know how much has this idea being introduced/pushed at the government level?
I guess for me (and also for many of us) it is not so much the title of being citizen that matters, but having the right to live and work as a normal human being in society.