Dual citizenship, how likely is it?

[Nimbus]

Hi Nimbus, thanks for the thought.

Do know how much has this idea being introduced/pushed at the government level?
I guess for me (and also for many of us) it is not so much the title of being citizen that matters, but having the right to live and work as a normal human being in society.

I don’t know if it has ever been discussed at high levels of government, but I never fail to mention it whenever the subject of dual citizenship comes up.

I keep saying that India recognizes and wants to take advantage of her diaspora, like a couple of former state governors in USA and the CEOs of Google and Microsoft. Indonesia, on the other hand, treats her diaspora like cash cows at best and traitors at worst.

There is absolutely no reason why Overseas Citizenship of Indonesia can’t be implemented. There is nothing in the constitution specifically prohibiting dual citizenship or special privileges for former citizens. A simple omnibus law can be used to overturn / modify the Agrarian law prohibiting ownership of property by all foreigners. It is a matter of knowledge and will. Indonesian politicians like to copy foreign concepts (like the very omnibus law), so they need to know that other countries have done it.

Overseas Citizenship of India - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[SamR]

Thank you so much, Nimbus.

For those curious, check out the wikipedia page for Indian Overseas Citizenship linked above,more specifically the privileges and restrictions sections:

Overseas Citizenship of India allows a holder:[13]

(1) Multiple entry, multi-purpose life long visa free to visit India.

(2) Exemption from registering with the Foreigners Regional Registration Officer(FRRO) of India on their arrival in the country[14] or for any length of stay in India, unless there is a change of permanent home address or occupation.

(3) Parity with NRIs in financial, economic, and educational fields, except in the acquisition of agricultural or plantation properties.

(4) Parity with Indian citizens for domestic airfares and admit fees into national parks, wildlife sanctuaries, national monuments, historical sites, and museums.[15]

(5) Parity with foreign nationals for any other field not mentioned in 3 and 4.

(6) Can visit India for the purpose of conducting research after obtaining a No Objection/Research Project Clearance Certificate from Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA), India and that can be applied at nearest Indian Diplomatic Mission.[16] This includes Scholars awarded Scholarship under Fulbright or any other scheme.[17]

OCI holders are not citizens of India from a constitutional point of view and will not enjoy the following rights even if residing in India:[18]

• they do not have the right to vote,[19]
• they do not have the right to hold the offices of Prime Minister, President, Vice-President, Judge of Supreme Court and High Court, member of Lok Sabha, Rajya Sabha, Legislative Assembly, or Council.
• they do not have the right to any public services (government jobs).
• they do not have the right to invest in farmland (agricultural property). However, they can still inherit farmland.[20]
• they are not eligible for an Inner Line Permit. Overseas Citizens of India need to apply for a protected area permit to perform certain activities and visit certain areas in India.[21]

Though not actual dual citizenship, the privileges afforded by acquiring an OCI card are now such that multi-national companies are finding it simpler to hire OCI cardholders, who enjoy a multiple entry, multi-purpose lifelong visa to visit and reside in India, sparing them the need for permits. OCI holders are treated on par with NRIs for economic, financial, and educational matters and lack only political rights and rights to buy agricultural or plantation properties.[22]

 

[Banana72]

The downside that, maybe...one day I want to become the prime minister of Indonesia...maybe a DPR member or a BUMN komisaris.... and own a few meter square of sawah...damn. but that's okay, permit to work, live, and buy property normally...I'll take it!!

(kidding...)

 

[dannyboy]

So...who wants to represent us and bring this to the parliament? You have my vote! Wait... I can't vote.

 

[Sine]

So...who wants to represent us and bring this to the parliament? You have my vote! Wait... I can't vote.

Hahahaa can’t vote either

 

[Sine]

Taxation without representation

 

[Helpful Herbert]

I voted and I'm a foreigner on a kitap. The Pak RT said if my name is on the KK then I can vote, and he put me on the list for both the Jakarta governor and presidential elections. I don't think it's technically correct, but that's what happened.

 

[Sine]

I voted and I'm a foreigner on a kitap. The Pak RT said if my name is on the KK then I can vote, and he put me on the list for both the Jakarta governor and presidential elections. I don't think it's technically correct, but that's what happened.

Then I hope you voted for your pak RT guys. If not then he beat himself up if he ever find out otherwise

 

[michiru_maeda]

Out of curiosity, let's say, the parliament grants the status of overseas Indonesian citizenship like India but you are also subject to Indonesian tax, would you do it?

 

[El_Goretto]

I voted and I'm a foreigner on a kitap. The Pak RT said if my name is on the KK then I can vote, and he put me on the list for both the Jakarta governor and presidential elections. I don't think it's technically correct, but that's what happened.

Likewise, although no KK anymore. But I did follow the RT's recommendation for the candidate because I have no idea who's who. Would have voted for him again because he's a nice chap but apparently they have to rotate the RTs.

 

[Nimbus]

Out of curiosity, let's say, the parliament grants the status of overseas Indonesian citizenship like India but you are also subject to Indonesian tax, would you do it?

If you live in Indonesia for more than 183 days in a year, you are already subject to Indonesian income tax regardless of your citizenship.

Subjecting actual foreigners who don’t live nor earn a living in Indonesia is a non starter. Not even America does that, they only tax their own citizens abroad.

 

[michiru_maeda]

If you live in Indonesia for more than 183 days in a year, you are already subject to Indonesian income tax regardless of your citizenship.

Subjecting actual foreigners who don’t live nor earn a living in Indonesia is a non starter. Not even America does that, they only tax their own citizens abroad.

Americans are subject to dual tax. The country they are residing and the US. That's why Eduardo Severin renounces his US citizenship to dogde tax https://www.theguardian.com/technol...ay/11/facebook-eduardo-saverin-us-cirizenship

Parliament doesn't see an opportunity for an income here. Also the supporters of dual citizenship doesn't aware that double tax may come as the cost for their cause. Thus my question, would these supporters still support dual citizenship or the perks like IOC if they are subject to double tax?

Let me be clear here with my question. What if, what if, the parliament changes the current tax regulation to pass dual citizenship or a status like IOC, would supporters of dual citizenship still back up this idea?

 

[Sine]

Americans are subject to dual tax. The country they are residing and the US. That's why Eduardo Severin renounces his US citizenship to dogde tax https://www.theguardian.com/technol...ay/11/facebook-eduardo-saverin-us-cirizenship

Parliament doesn't see an opportunity for an income here. Also the supporters of dual citizenship doesn't aware that double tax may come as the cost for their cause. Thus my question, would these supporters still support dual citizenship or the perks like IOC if they are subject to double tax?

Let me be clear here with my question. What if, what if, the parliament changes the current tax regulation to pass dual citizenship or a status like IOC, would supporters of dual citizenship still back up this idea?

I have nothing to add just reading the comments but I got stuck here, what is IOC? Sorry, I’m not familiar with all the abbreviations.

Just a layman, I don’t have a big business nor anything akin to it either. Not gonna lie, the idea of owning a big business and making lots of money is always welcome to me hahaha...

I’m not a fan of losing money (Depleting my savings. Who does right?), however as long as if and only if the tax rate is reasonable and the money collected is used for improving everyone quality of life, I’ll convince myself and sure will ok with it. If we benefits from wherever or whichever land(s), least we can do is give back. Not sure whether I would still have the same beliefs as today when I get to (haha I’m hoping) Saverin / any other big shots’ levels. Because the more you have the more you have to pay, but hopefully I’d be still ok with it. In conclusion, I’m ok with paying tax, given its condition as I mentioned before, because the benefits / inner peace of not having annual / whenever dealing with anxiety and stress because the stay permit is expiring and when renewing is absolutely surpasses losing some money.

 

[michiru_maeda]

I have nothing to add just reading the comments but I got stuck here, what is IOC? Sorry, I’m not familiar with all the abbreviations.

Just a layman, I don’t have a big business nor anything akin to it either. Not gonna lie, the idea of owning a big business and making lots of money is always welcome to me hahaha...

I’m not a fan of losing money (Depleting my savings. Who does right?), however as long as if and only if the tax rate is reasonable and the money collected is used for improving everyone quality of life, I’ll convince myself and sure will ok with it. If we benefits from wherever or whichever land(s), least we can do is give back. Not sure whether I would still have the same beliefs as today when I get to (haha I’m hoping) Saverin / any other big shots’ levels. Because the more you have the more you have to pay, but hopefully I’d be still ok with it. In conclusion, I’m ok with paying tax, given its condition as I mentioned before, because the benefits / inner peace of not having annual / whenever dealing with anxiety and stress because the stay permit is expiring and when renewing is absolutely surpasses losing some money.

It should be OCI, ops! Hehe... Overseas Citizenship of India. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Citizenship_of_India

I was browsing Quora. Someone asked why Indonesia doesn't allow dual citizenship. That person gave valid points like fear of possible breach of national securities and economic worries (stashing money overseas, committing money laundering, etc) and some other reasons. Unfortunately I can't find that article again. Very likely the parliament didn't see any incentive to allow dual citizenship or a status similar to that because of those worries. Money motivates people. I doubt the nationalists and the religious hardliners hate money

I would hate to lose money too. But if that keeps my link to my birth country, I would do it!

 

[Nimbus]

Americans are subject to dual tax. The country they are residing and the US. That's why Eduardo Severin renounces his US citizenship to dogde tax https://www.theguardian.com/technol...ay/11/facebook-eduardo-saverin-us-cirizenship

Parliament doesn't see an opportunity for an income here. Also the supporters of dual citizenship doesn't aware that double tax may come as the cost for their cause. Thus my question, would these supporters still support dual citizenship or the perks like IOC if they are subject to double tax?

Let me be clear here with my question. What if, what if, the parliament changes the current tax regulation to pass dual citizenship or a status like IOC, would supporters of dual citizenship still back up this idea?

OCI is not real citizenship, that’s why it has ‘overseas’ as qualifier. It is more like expanded permanent residency specific to ex-citizens, it has limited rights. If parliament wants to fully tax the OCs while giving them only partial rights, then the legislators can shove it.

 

[Ruserious]

Yasonna Mau Revisi PP, Diaspora Bisa Berkewarganegaraan Ganda

Yasonna belum membeberkan tata cara dan persyaratan yang harus dipenuhi oleh diaspora agar mendapatkan kewarganegaraan ganda. Namun revisi ini ditargetkan rampung tahun ini. #kumparanNews

kumparan.com

Its not law yet so hasnt happened but some interesting statements here and hopefully they come to pass. 30 yrs for mixed nationality kids would be a good start.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

That would be absolutely massive - 30 yo would be a great improvement. Even 25 would be something. 21 is just way too young, like they say it's before they even finish uni. How can you decide which one to choose at that age, before even starting to work.

 

[SamR]

Yasonna Mau Revisi PP, Diaspora Bisa Berkewarganegaraan Ganda

Yasonna belum membeberkan tata cara dan persyaratan yang harus dipenuhi oleh diaspora agar mendapatkan kewarganegaraan ganda. Namun revisi ini ditargetkan rampung tahun ini. #kumparanNews

kumparan.com

Its not law yet so hasnt happened but some interesting statements here and hopefully they come to pass. 30 yrs for mixed nationality kids would be a good start.

A move in the right direction.

What I am most concerned about is the provision for dual citizenship for Diaspora, defined here as those working and residing overseas (who I assume are "exes"). Does that mean "Exes" who reside in Indonesia don't count as Diaspora?

 

[nd_eric_77]

Yasonna Mau Revisi PP, Diaspora Bisa Berkewarganegaraan Ganda

Yasonna belum membeberkan tata cara dan persyaratan yang harus dipenuhi oleh diaspora agar mendapatkan kewarganegaraan ganda. Namun revisi ini ditargetkan rampung tahun ini. #kumparanNews

kumparan.com

Its not law yet so hasnt happened but some interesting statements here and hopefully they come to pass. 30 yrs for mixed nationality kids would be a good start.

This would be huge, but hopefully, it will apply to kids who are already alive, rather than only to kids born in its year of going into effect. My kiddos, born in 2005 and 2008, had two entirely different processes for applying for Indonesian passports. This time, it would be nice if the new law applies to everyone!

 

[dafluff]

Yasonna Mau Revisi PP, Diaspora Bisa Berkewarganegaraan Ganda

Yasonna belum membeberkan tata cara dan persyaratan yang harus dipenuhi oleh diaspora agar mendapatkan kewarganegaraan ganda. Namun revisi ini ditargetkan rampung tahun ini. #kumparanNews

kumparan.com

Its not law yet so hasnt happened but some interesting statements here and hopefully they come to pass. 30 yrs for mixed nationality kids would be a good start.

Wow, what he is proposing is actually a very logical and beneficial policy both for Indonesia and for her dual citizens, so chances are it won't pass.

His first problem is that he says they will revise it using a PP. That's not going to work because all the limitations on dual citizenship are laid out in an Undang Undang, which is a higher-level law that a PP can not overrule.