Decrease of Indonesian Middle Class

[Shadrach]

Woaw, woaw...a giant program !

Manners ? Even in the West many parents have no clue...
On religion you are completely wrong. It is the basis, the cement of traditionnal societies.
Like it was in Europe 75 years ago...
But don't make a circus out of it like in the US !

So true about parents in the West not teaching good manners. Keep religion in the Church, and Temple! It's a personal matter. One, which should not be pushed on kids from another religion. They get enough of it there and everyday at home. It's wasting precious time to educate the kids, important skills they need to know in life here on Bali. Such as, Reading, Writing, Mathematics, a foreign language, such as English, Japanese, Chinese, now Russian.
Religious institutions spend too much time making people afraid of God, and for the poor, to give too much money, which they can't afford, and make the Priest and Church dripping in Gold

 

[Helpful Herbert]

That's the whole business model of religion. Also turn the mosque loudspeakers up so no one is allowed to forget about it.
One of my daughter's friends is 7 and she cannot even do simple arithmetic like 2+3. However she has to do several hours of religious instruction every single day. So she will reach adulthood barely able to read, write or count but with a very good knowledge of the koran. So her life options are basically destroyed before she even starts. Extremely sad situation, all caused by religion.

Now multiply that by millions of kids and that is basically Indonesia's future. The few thousands being educated in schools which follow a proper curriculum would not make a huge difference.

 

[harryopal1]

That's the whole business model of religion. Also turn the mosque loudspeakers up so no one is allowed to forget about it.
One of my daughter's friends is 7 and she cannot even do simple arithmetic like 2+3. However she has to do several hours of religious instruction every single day. So she will reach adulthood barely able to read, write or count but with a very good knowledge of the koran. So her life options are basically destroyed before she even starts. Extremely sad situation, all caused by religion.

Now multiply that by millions of kids and that is basically Indonesia's future. The few thousands being educated in schools which follow a proper curriculum would not make a huge difference.

Probably not a good idea to share these thoughts with some local Muslims. You might find yourself in gaol for blasphemy for some time and, were you to share your thoughts in Aceh, a public whipping to help you to a better more correct frame of mind.

 

[Shadrach]

Probably not a good idea to share these thoughts with some local Muslims. You might find yourself in gaol for blasphemy for some time and, were you to share your thoughts in Aceh, a public whipping to help you to a better more correct frame of mind.
View attachment 4489

It is the Hindu religion being taught more, than Reading, writing and Mathematics, in schools here. I don't mean to offend anyone about their religion. I just want the children to be skilled enough to be able to get a good job and support themselves and their families.
All the time I hear from my Hindu friends here, that they are bankrupt and can't afford quality food, and equipment to live a more comfortable, healthy lifestyle. Then I see them take days, and sometimes a whole week off from work, to perform ceremonies. It then doesn't surprise me, that they are bankrupt.
But if you speak to them about this, they say they have to do this, or God will be angry with them. Who do you think teaches them this idea?

 

[Helpful Herbert]

I'm not really complaining, because having millions of uneducated service workers around is not a bad thing for those people who are educated. Deliveries, taxis, massages etc will always stay cheap and widely available. On the other hand it is a bit sad for the future of the country.

 

[fastpitch17]

Woaw, woaw...a giant program !

Manners ? Even in the West many parents have no clue...
On religion you are completely wrong. It is the basis, the cement of traditionnal societies.
Like it was in Europe 75 years ago...
But don't make a circus out of it like in the US !

No, morals are the cement of societies and morals were around a lot longer than any religion. True on the West doing a poor job on manners but we are here now and it's very true Indonesians are pretty much mannerless not to mention the lack in basic courtesies. These can be taught but the ones to teach them have never learned them either. Same for teachers in the classrooms. If they teach whatever they were taught, nothing ever changes. There are still teachers that don't even know how to turn a computer on. Getting to be less as they retire but some remain. Many students in private schools where some teachers are just hired off the street and not being held to any educational standards. It's OK though, the kids are being educated. Or, are they? Guaranteed they are getting that religion that Balifrog regards so highly. Religion from more non educated, degreeless, teachers who will give it to the students straight as they see it.

Indonesia's education system is a total F**k up from the Minister on down. True, they are underpaid but what are the teachers really offering their students? What does it take to keep students in a classroom?

 

[Shadrach]

No, morals are the cement of societies and morals were around a lot longer than any religion. True on the West doing a poor job on manners but we are here now and it's very true Indonesians are pretty much mannerless not to mention the lack in basic courtesies. These can be taught but the ones to teach them have never learned them either. Same for teachers in the classrooms. If they teach whatever they were taught, nothing ever changes. There are still teachers that don't even know how to turn a computer on. Getting to be less as they retire but some remain. Many students in private schools where some teachers are just hired off the street and not being held to any educational standards. It's OK though, the kids are being educated. Or, are they? Guaranteed they are getting that religion that Balifrog regards so highly. Religion from more non educated, degreeless, teachers who will give it to the students straight as they see it.

Indonesia's education system is a total F**k up from the Minister on down. True, they are underpaid but what are the teachers really offering their students? What does it take to keep students in a classroom?

That's a sad point about unqualified teachers. Being underpaid isn't a good incentive. My Bali friends tell me they have to pay for the teachers, books, those military style uniforms, and it's a big price for them to pay. Remember, their all bankrupt! Because usually only one in the family has a warung, and the Husband sit's on his ass, looking to be a taxi driver only. Lazy jerk. Then there's all the ceremonies?

 

[Nicho]

The Missus son (30) has no qualification. He works as daily worker in the fields or construction jobs in a radius of 10 / 15 km from the village (Java) when work is available.
He is usually paid 75k / day. And doesn't have a job every day.
Plenty small people in Bali working for 2jt or less a month.

My sons the same , lucky if he earns 500k a month at one of the fish processing businesses here in the village . Just no work available after the Corona crap an all the businesses that close an never reopene .

 

[pantaiema]

The Missus son (30) has no qualification. He works as daily worker in the fields or construction jobs in a radius of 10 / 15 km from the village (Java) when work is available.
He is usually paid 75k / day. And doesn't have a job every day.
Plenty small people in Bali working for 2jt or less a month.

The minimum wage in Bali is 2,813,672 (US$180) pa in 2024

Salary and Minimum Wage in Indonesia - Indonesia Guide | Doing Business in Indonesia

Indonesia's minimum wages vary by region and sector, reflecting local economic conditions and promoting fair income standards. Our guide provides a comprehensive outlook.

www.aseanbriefing.com

But if they do not have regular job, they do not work everyday, it will need to be a pro rata figure. So no wonder a lot of people earn Less than IDR2m or less in Bali.

My sons the same , lucky if he earns 500k a month at one of the fish processing businesses here in the village . Just no work available after the Corona crap an all the businesses that close an never reopene .

Working for how many days in a month ??

 

[marcus]

The minimum wage in Bali is 2,813,672 (US$180) pa in 2024

Minimum wage is not applicable to micro & small businesses , even less applicable to these people with that kind of work .

 

[Samoerai]

I guess the official wage values are not the real income , this is probably the reason why the same BPS used (see post no.1 above) spending value instead of wage .

I heard of many cases where employees get free : lunch , and/or and/or accommodation , and/or car/motorcycle to use .

Spending value and wage are two different things. Also consider .. per household or per person.

Spending value per household is not only adding up 2 or more wages. Most of the "would be middle class" families have loans and buy stuff on credit, while living in kampungs with almost no water or electricity. This large "pseudo" middle class supports the enormous and ever increasing consumption which in turn supports the Indonesian economy, says Aiko Kurasawa in her book Consuming Indonesia.

Could this go on for ever? I don't think so ...

 

[Balifrog]

Who do you think teaches them this idea?

The family !
For Hindous the kids can disregard what school teaches them, but they can not reject what the family tells them.
I can see how the Missus' grandson is being brought up, dragged to the temple and ceremonies in traditional outfit from very young age.

I am confident it will change, first in the cities but it will take time.
For the "other" religion it is a different story....

On the other hand, would it be better if people lost all their traditions and believes ?
I don't think so if I look at my country's change over the last 50 years.

 

[Balifrog]

Guaranteed they are getting that religion that Balifrog regards so highly.

Hohoho....
I am not a religious man, I have been baptized, brought up by Mom going to church every Sunday (although Dad was more on the Red side...) but have abandoned any believe at 15 when my Dad passed away.
Just to clarify things.

Now about religious education in school here is how I see it.
Religion should be taught like geography, you learn about every continent (well, in my time)
It should be a part of common knowledge, reviewing the principles of all the main religions in the world. I say "reviewing" not endoctrinating, so that at least kids know what exist where.
But of course it's a pipe dream, none of the religions is going to allow education to steal THEIR business model, without which they would lose all the benefits of their position, and would lose their power.

 

[fastpitch17]

Hohoho....
I am not a religious man, I have been baptized, brought up by Mom going to church every Sunday (although Dad was more on the Red side...) but have abandoned any believe at 15 when my Dad passed away.
Just to clarify things.

Now about religious education in school here is how I see it.
Religion should be taught like geography, you learn about every continent (well, in my time)
It should be a part of common knowledge, reviewing the principles of all the main religions in the world. I say "reviewing" not endoctrinating, so that at least kids know what exist where.
But of course it's a pipe dream, none of the religions is going to allow education to steal THEIR business model, without which they would lose all the benefits of their position, and would lose their power.

I agree with learning what each religion offers but otherwise, no religion has a place in public education since not all students are if the same religion. Religion belongs in the family. They teach it. Religious leaders all need to be vetted. You last paragraph applies to most religions globally. They want the power and obtain it through teaching fear. My wife tells of when she and some if her siblings were attending school (centuries ago ) they would all be sent outside during religion classes. Rain or shine. Religion classes were in the afternoon so eventually they just decided to go home instead of attending any classes that came behind. The school complained, her father that was over 6 feet tall wearing his turban who intimidated anyone he chose to intimidate made a visit to the school and religion classes were moved to the last class of the day. Or, his kids will continue to miss classes. He had influanced since he was head of security for Stimpex oil and got that position in the recommendation of President Sukarno who he had been on his personal security team since his arrival after the war. Her father was Sikh and her mother was Muslim. The kids were all taught to decide for themselves which direction they wanted to go.

 

[Shadrach]

The family !
For Hindous the kids can disregard what school teaches them, but they can not reject what the family tells them.
I can see how the Missus' grandson is being brought up, dragged to the temple and ceremonies in traditional outfit from very young age.

I am confident it will change, first in the cities but it will take time.
For the "other" religion it is a different story....

On the other hand, would it be better if people lost all their traditions and believes ?
I don't think so if I look at my country's change over the last 50 years.

That's a good about religion's and traditions. Maybe if the tradition in this day and age, is not serving the people appropriately, then maybe adapt it to modern times.example (Tooth fileing),( women having to cover their hair, but the men not). As for religions, I have never had one, and am glad. I was taught to just be a good honest person, and do the best I can at life and work. Being spiritual is not the same as being in a religion.
I see that religion's are controlled by leaders, that gain power over the common people, and instill fear, and the wrath of God, that if they don't follow the rules, the leaders created, the people will suffer. BS!
The leaders and churches are giving lots of money, that these poor people could have used for the betterment of their families.
Look at all the gold statues, golden doors, priest with huge gold rings. This wealth should be used for the people instead. Look at the Catholic church, not allowing Priests to marry. Then they become pedophiles and molest young boys! That's not right.

This is my opinion only. To each his own!

 

[Bad_azz]

There are many who believe the fundamentals of religion are the glue that holds society together. Many (the vast majority?) parents want their children to follow religious teachings to help them to guide their children along a path that doesn't involve crime, gangs, drugs or risk of harm.
Crime is a huge factor in a society where many people just don't make enough money to live reasonably well. A society that doesn't really provide any welfare for people with mental health issues who can't work, for children with special educational needs, for people who get sick or have to care for a sick or elderly relative etc. . Religion is seen as a way to support the family unit along with all other reasons people have for spirituality in their lives.

We cannot separate things in to tidy little compartments as that is not a realistic view on life here at all. Religion is a massive factor in the well-being of Indonesian society. The mosques, churches and temples are almost always the first to jump in with aid when a disaster strikes - be it a landslide, earthquake or just the old lady up the street who doesn't have money for food.
Trust me on this, I am in no way shape or form in to any formal religion, but I can see the value it has here for the vast majority of people in Indonesia- the price being conformity- is it worth the balance? I think so if I take my own ego out of the equation.

On religious education in schools.
I would love there to be more focus on the academic tasks in schools and maybe sideline the religion (and Scouts) to fit in around the curriculum but that will never happen. Probably at this stage it shouldn't because the infrastructure isn't all about generating wealth, it is equally about fitting in, about family (look at western society where it is pretty much the done thing to shove the elderly relatives into some impersonal care home, where the kids don't have a parent at home because parents need to work to pay off all the debt, in contrast in Indonesia it is often the grandparents or aunts that provide the childcare or the pembantu in wealthier families. Anyway- I won't rattle on about that).

Parents want the schools to provide religious education. They also want their children to fit in within their society.
This is a massive part of Indonesian culture.
We have to understand that for a huge part of Indonesian history the populace have been repressed and their behaviours controlled.
That has a long term generational effect. Trans-generational or legacy trauma is a thing. https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/02/legacy-trauma
Where we foreigners go wrong is when we come here with our values instilled elsewhere and believe that we know better.
I deal with over 600 kids every week, there are a mix of religions and these religions are catered to in their educational environment. I can pretty much guarantee that if religion was taken out of the school, the parents would be looking elsewhere for a school...that is just the way it is.
Personally, I feel privileged to have been able to spend so long in Indonesia and I try to observe from the sidelines, I love to see the progress and changes that are slowly working their way through the country. I help out where/when I can but I do not feel the least bit qualified to think that I know better than the people who have been here for generations.
~~~~~
Also on a side note, Indonesia is bigger than just Bali and so many people on here seem to forget that fact.

 

[Bad_azz]

That's a good about religion's and traditions. Maybe if the tradition in this day and age, is not serving the people appropriately, then maybe adapt it to modern times.example (Tooth fileing),( women having to cover their hair, but the men not). As for religions, I have never had one, and am glad. I was taught to just be a good honest person, and do the best I can at life and work. Being spiritual is not the same as being in a religion.
I see that religion's are controlled by leaders, that gain power over the common people, and instill fear, and the wrath of God, that if they don't follow the rules, the leaders created, the people will suffer. BS!
The leaders and churches are giving lots of money, that these poor people could have used for the betterment of their families.
Look at all the gold statues, golden doors, priest with huge gold rings. This wealth should be used for the people instead. Look at the Catholic church, not allowing Priests to marry. Then they become pedophiles and molest young boys! That's not right.

This is my opinion only. To each his own!

Just to clarify - not marrying doesn't turn someone into a paedophile. That is just not how that works.

 

[Bob]

Unfortunately it looks like teachers don't teach that the students should not make the mess , because I see students throwing trash at : the entrance of my daughter's school , at the streets , inside the public busses , ... (my own 4 "adopted" children and their mother behave like that too even after I tried to correct them) .

Maybe the Government should implement a fine for throwing trash in public spaces , like Singapore does .

Are there trash cans with room for more trash at the entrance to the school? Providing trash receptacles is the first step in getting people to not litter.

 

[Wisnu]

Might no be to western standard or your values ( do we have to follow your values and or western standards ?) manners were taught and as far as I remember were included in the curriculum part of "budi pekerti".
How efective? I dont know. Have no data., and I dont want to conclude based on what

I frequently visited elementary schools, especially when visiting Bali and other places in eastern Indonesia with my daughters. We bring some English books ex-my daughters, communicate with them and the teachers, and took this opportunity to show my daughters that not everyone has a life as good as theirs and how lucky they are.

I have never found a school that does not have a trash can, typically segregated into organic and non-organic waste. "Jagalah Kebersihan" can be seen in many places. But when they return home, it's a different story. Easy to blame their parent, but it's not that so simple.
I do agree it's not a good excuse.

I have not encountered anything as bad as some of the posters described here. When I met children, whether from our extended family members, friends and school kids who often pass in front of the house; I like to give them a simple math quiz game, such as calculating additions starting from 1+1, 2+2, 4+4 until they are no longer able to continue. The highest gets a small prize or just a compliment that makes them proud. few of them have very good counting skills, even better than children their age who get the best international education.
Of course this is not a benchmark for educational ability in Indonesia, but just an illustration that they are not that bad.

I will not deny what ever you see or around you, it could be that bad. However, this is an opportunity to do something to help those in need.
As an expatriate (I have lived as an expatriate for more than 20 years in various hardship locations) if done wisely I believe your voice will be heard more. Children and their teachers will listen to your voice more than me, even though after that they will ask for selfie or group photo.

 

[Wisnu]

It is the Hindu religion being taught more, than Reading, writing and Mathematics, in schools here. I don't mean to offend anyone about their religion. I just want the children to be skilled enough to be able to get a good job and support themselves and their families.
All the time I hear from my Hindu friends here, that they are bankrupt and can't afford quality food, and equipment to live a more comfortable, healthy lifestyle. Then I see them take days, and sometimes a whole week off from work, to perform ceremonies. It then doesn't surprise me, that they are bankrupt.
But if you speak to them about this, they say they have to do this, or God will be angry with them. Who do you think teaches them this idea?

indeed, Balinese hindus spend significant amount of their income and times for ritual and ceremonies. They have been doing as part of their way of life.
Isn't this what makes Bali so unique and attracts many people to visit - and some of them stay in Bali?

Is that what makes many of them go bankrupt?

Statistik in US - https://www.uscourts.gov/news/2024/07/25/bankruptcy-filings-rise-162-percent
I dont think they spent lot of many for ritual like in Bali.

What I know and I see here - at least in my area, the main reason for some people getting bankruptcy is gambling including cock fighting, alcohol, and women - more specific "joget bumbung".
of course, broke people always have a reason to sell - could be different depend on who they talk to.

remember, in Bali, Banjar or their relative will always willing to help their member if having problems as long as not caused by I mentioned above.