Decrease of Indonesian Middle Class

Balinese hindus spend significant amount of their income and times for ritual and ceremonies. They have been doing as part of their way of life.
Indeed, I never stop to be amazed on the amount of money (hers) the Miss (Java Hindu) spend on that.
Not to speak about her son's wedding...
On the other hand, I have seen people in Europe get in debt for a wedding ceremony....

Well, my kids know that if one day they want to marry they better have the money, because don't count on me !
 
Are there trash cans with room for more trash at the entrance to the school?
There is 1 trash can .
But usually there is no trash can in many streets and rarely in mini busses (but have to say also that , at least in Bandung , there are not many people walking in the streets , maybe due to high availability of mini busses/motorcycle taxis , bad walkways , cars parked in the walkways , vendors in the walkway , ..) .
I saw students throw trash in the street from inside the mini bus .
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Bob
Indeed, I never stop to be amazed on the amount of money (hers) the Miss (Java Hindu) spend on that.
Not to speak about her son's wedding...
On the other hand, I have seen people in Europe get in debt for a wedding ceremony....

Well, my kids know that if one day they want to marry they better have the money, because don't count on me !
you'll be more amazed how the Torajan working very hard to earn money for decades and then spend million or billion in few days for death rituals.
I dont understand, I cant understand - but I respect what they are believed; though I expect (and I believe) they will change to be more realistic (at least from my POV) on spending money. Nevertheless, I'll not judge them because they are not like me.
 
There is 1 trash can . But usually there is no trash can in many streets and rarely in mini busses (but have to say also that , at least in Bandung , there is not many people walking in the streets - due to high availability of mini busses and motorcycle taxis , average people almost don't walk) .
I saw students throw trash in the street from inside the mini bus .
yes, unfortunately, not only from mini bus, but sometime I see a nice (luxury) car throw rubbish to the street. Not much I can do with this behaviors, usually I just give one two honk from my car just to let them know. Effective or not? I don't know. So, let educate them from the school or from small environment around you where you have more control.
 
... do we have to follow your values and or western standards ?
In my view what is good (by common sense) should be followed . By the way my western country has to improve a lot in this subject too .
manners were taught and as far as I remember were included in the curriculum part of "budi pekerti".
How efective? I dont know ...
Good (my country does not have this) .
It may not be taught efficiently , but in principle it is good , in my view .
... if done wisely I believe your voice will be heard more ...
It is a good example to your children but in my view , individual voices will do almost nothing for the whole community unless you have opportunity to talk to Government's policy maker . My voice here is only to exercise my brain .
 
Last edited:
yes, unfortunately, not only from mini bus, but sometime I see a nice (luxury) car throw rubbish to the street. Not much I can do with this behaviors, usually I just give one two honk from my car just to let them know. Effective or not? I don't know. So, let educate them from the school or from small environment around you where you have more control.
The children see their parents throwing trash around like a banana leaf, so they learn that's what they're supposed to do. Instead of so many political posters, put ones that promote a clean island. Also the Banjar should be promoting this also.
I listened to my Balinese friend tell me how a cremation cost the family IDR. 40 Juta. I ask where does all this money go, and said the priests and the temples. This seems like a rip off to me. I told him, why not just gather a lot of firewood, and wrap the body up in a nice cloth, do your goodbye blessings, and lit them up. Then take the money and use it for your family.

He said he was stuck with tradition! And had to do it the expensive way.
I saw in Varanasi India, on the Ganges river, people make funeral pyre's and silently cremate the bodies, then push the ashes into the river. The only cost was the firewood. A much more practical Hindu ceremony. 🙏
 
you'll be more amazed how the Torajan working very hard to earn money for decades and then spend million or billion in few days for death rituals.
I dont understand, I cant understand - but I respect what they are believed; though I expect (and I believe) they will change to be more realistic (at least from my POV) on spending money. Nevertheless, I'll not judge them because they are not like me.
Many years ago when I went to Torajaland, and attended a ceremony for a death in the family, it was an amazing experience. We went to their amazingly built houses, with all the buffalo horns lined up the front, and in the court yard, they had built a circle platform for the quests to sit. They took me into one of the houses, and there in the kitchen,was Grandpa lying in a casket. They said he had been there for at least a month. That was a new concept for me.
Then they brought lots of pigs, in these elaborately decorated bamboo cages, to be sacrificed. I really enjoyed watching how they put the cut up meat, herbs, and vegetables, stuffed in a section of green bamboo with the ends plugged up to keep the heat and juices in. Then, after they slow cooked the bamboo pieces, over a bed of coals, until black, they took them off the fire to let them cool. Then broke them open,and took out the food. It was delicious! Served with red rice, and Tuak.
It was a wonderful ceremony.

I was told that before depending on a families wealth, they would slaughter Carabao. Sometimes up to a hundred. They were all going bankrupt doing this, so the local government put a stop to this insane amount of Carabao being slaughtered. Now it's limited to 1 or a few, depending on the family and attendance. They would put the bodies in caveshigh up cliff faces, or in caves dug out of boulders. The babies were placed in notches of tall trees. They have a custom of taking the bodies out, and replacing the cloth the bodies are wrapped in and putting on new cloth. I'm not sure, but this could be every year. It's as though they don't consider the person has died.
This was just my observation and what I heard.
I'm sorry if I described this incorrectly.
 
In my view what is good (by common sense) should be followed . By the way my western country should also improve in this subject too .


It is a good example to your children but in my view , individual voices will do almost nothing for the whole community unless you have opportunity to talk to Government's policy maker . My voice here is only to exercise my brain .
the question is - what's and who's "common sense" - this is something we have to be wise; sometime we have to compromise and find a middle point where not necessarily to be in the middle.

Correct, contribution of individual point can be very small or probably nothing but can also significant, but in my opinion - at least for myself, this is not very important. It's more important to me to contribute something even it's very-very small or not visible at all than NATO; at least it make me feel happy regardless the result.
I've spoken directly to few high level people and the law maker; give some feedback - not sure whether they really listen; but I'm happy if I know a person quit smoking, or they make compost instead of burning rubbish, or they wear helmet and stop at red traffic light - not enough for the country surely - but make me happy. I'm selfish, the most important thing is to make me happy.
 
The minimum wage in Bali is 2,813,672 (US$180) pa in 2024

But if they do not have regular job, they do not work everyday, it will need to be a pro rata figure. So no wonder a lot of people earn Less than IDR2m or less in Bali.


Working for how many days in a month. He's worke 12 hr ays , 6 ays a week for a whole month when there's a lot of fish being caught an only been pai 500,000rp/$50 , about 20,000rp / $2 a ay . They exploit the young boys just out of school , pay them a pittance because they know there's no other work available . He's worke 4 ays in the last 6 weeks an hasn't been pai . Sorry my laptops lost a few letters .
 
Wisnu is quite right. People all over the nation fall into bankruptcy due to their vices and not social expectations. In Bali, rituals and ceremonies primarily require natural adornments and offerings plus some time. If they miss work chances are that everyone where they work are right by their side. there is no way one can contribute bankruptcies to participating in rituals and ceremonies.
 
Are there trash cans with room for more trash at the entrance to the school? Providing trash receptacles is the first step in getting people to not litter.
The schools I have visited for the most part had trashcans outside classrooms and a dumpster somewhere near the main entrance. I do not know about elementary level schools, I have not visited them.
 
In schools, primarily high schools I speak to English classes and clubs. I am not a teacher so when I talk it is to motivate and attempt to explain in the various fields they want to pursue how there will be more technical information available to them compared to the non English speaker. How books in English seem to be more informative to the matter being written about and how much better it is watching a Western movie without having to look at subtitles. It boils down to having an advantage over the non English speaker when it comes to their desired career choice. Except one girl who I felt was a very good English speaker who's plan was to marry as soon as she graduated.

Outside of the High schools I enjoy conversing (badly so with my wife) with the more "poorer" boys and girls. I found early on that many of these kids are a lot smarter than many I have met that are being educated. These are the kids the system leaves behind not realizing they actually have a lot to offer.
 
you'll be more amazed how the Torajan working very hard to earn money for decades and then spend million or billion in few days for death rituals.
I dont understand, I cant understand - but I respect what they are believed; though I expect (and I believe) they will change to be more realistic (at least from my POV) on spending money. Nevertheless, I'll not judge them because they are not like me.
In Torajaland, tobacco, along with cigarettes, is also a favoured gift as it symbolizes goodwill, hospitality, and friendship, particularly during social gatherings or traditional ceremonies like funerals and weddings.

While such practices were suitable in the past when the health impacts of smoking were less understood, it might not be suitable in the current environment. Let alone there are a lot of smoking ban in public that will cause problem with adaptability when Torajans need to travel outside their land.

It is beneficial for the communities, people to adapt to modern knowledge, invention, and healthier alternatives for a better quality of life. Change is a natural part of evolution to increase the rate of survival, as highlighted by Darwin’s theory of evolution.
 
Last edited:
In Torajaland, tobacco, along with cigarettes, is also a favoured gift as it symbolizes goodwill, hospitality, and friendship, particularly during social gatherings or traditional ceremonies like funerals and weddings.

While such practices were suitable in the past when the health impacts of smoking were less understood, it might not be suitable in the current environment. Let alone there are a lot of smoking ban in public when there Torajan people need to travel outside their land.

It is beneficial for the communities, people to adapt to modern knowledge, invention, and healthier alternatives for a better quality of life. Change is a natural part of evolution to increase the rate of survival, as highlighted by Darwin’s theory of evolution.
yes, that's one I hate and to be changed as soon as possible. I will not, never give cigarettes and or cigar as gift to anybody.
I told my neighbor here, they are welcome to visit us, but not with cigarettes on hand. I told our kadus (head of village) to switch-off his cigarettes before passing the gate.
In Egypt, I fired my driver because I smelt cigarettes in my car.
If within my control, I'll ban smoking.
 
Outside of the High schools I enjoy conversing (badly so with my wife) with the more "poorer" boys and girls. I found early on that many of these kids are a lot smarter than many I have met that are being educated. These are the kids the system leaves behind not realizing they actually have a lot to offer.
I see a lot of the same thing. Most of the kids around my kampung are very smart but unfortunately will never have the chace to prove it. Also spent some time visiting a young boys prison. The main things these kids are missing is positive male leadership and have had quite a few break down just from giving them a hug.
 
If within my control, I'll ban smoking.
That is very intolerant. However I believe all of us have something we would ban if we were able to. For me I would completely ban mosque loudspeakers. Probably a good thing that most of us would never reach a position of power!
 
That is very intolerant. However I believe all of us have something we would ban if we were able to. For me I would completely ban mosque loudspeakers. Probably a good thing that most of us would never reach a position of power!
yes, I'm very intolerant for this one. I ban smoking in my premise, in my car, any where I can control. Unfortunately, or fortunately for many people my control is very-very limited.
 
One more thing I don't tolerate - gambling, my uncle died at the gambling table; his wife and children suffered to pay his debts and lost their properties
 
From https://ekonomi.republika.co.id/ber...ian-middle-class-dropped-by-10-million-people
Title : In 5 Years, The Number Of The Indonesian Middle Class Dropped By 10 Million People
Rep: Muhammad Nursyamsi/ Red: Budi Raharjo , Aug 2024

The (Indonesian) Central Statistical Agency (BPS) presented the latest data on the number of middle classes in Indonesia ...

2019 : 57.33 million people (21.45%),
2021 : 53.83 million people (19.82%
2022 : 49.51 million people (18.06%)
2023 : 48.27 million people (17.44%)
2024 : 47.85 million people (17.13%)

“If we look at its contribution to GDP, the middle class and aspiring middle class or towards the middle class contributed 81.49 % to household consumption,” ...

  • middle class standard in 2019 : spending rate of Rp 1,488 million up to Rp 7,229 million per capita per month.
  • middle class standard in 2024 : spending is between Rp 2 million per capita per month to Rp 9.9 million per capita per month .
Of those no longer middle class per those definitions, what share moved up and out and what share down and out? If it's mentioned later in the thread then of course never mind but I haven't gotten that far yet.
 
Cleaning up their own mess, is not child labor. It's part of learning 'etika' which most of them lack. And while we are on the subject of education, why not a program or two for teaching all of them some manners.
40 years ago Indonesians, kids included, were some of the most polite people I'd ever been around, and most folks where I'm from are quite well mannered. Then something happened, probably American movies and television and a more consumer oriented outlook.
 
Last edited:

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:0)

Follow Us

Latest Expat Indo Articles

Latest Tweets by Expat Indo

Latest Activity

New posts Latest threads

Online Now

No members online now.

Newest Members

Forum Statistics

Threads
6,581
Messages
110,622
Members
3,871
Latest member
Nadiarrr
Back
Top Bottom