Decrease of Indonesian Middle Class

[Bob]

So true about parents in the West not teaching good manners. Keep religion in the Church, and Temple! It's a personal matter. One, which should not be pushed on kids from another religion. They get enough of it there and everyday at home. It's wasting precious time to educate the kids, important skills they need to know in life here on Bali. Such as, Reading, Writing, Mathematics, a foreign language, such as English, Japanese, Chinese, now Russian.
Religious institutions spend too much time making people afraid of God, and for the poor, to give too much money, which they can't afford, and make the Priest and Church dripping in Gold

Keeping religion out of public schools is fine for some countries but it's not compatible with how this one's set up.

 

[Bob]

It is the Hindu religion being taught more, than Reading, writing and Mathematics, in schools here. I don't mean to offend anyone about their religion. I just want the children to be skilled enough to be able to get a good job and support themselves and their families.
All the time I hear from my Hindu friends here, that they are bankrupt and can't afford quality food, and equipment to live a more comfortable, healthy lifestyle. Then I see them take days, and sometimes a whole week off from work, to perform ceremonies. It then doesn't surprise me, that they are bankrupt.
But if you speak to them about this, they say they have to do this, or God will be angry with them. Who do you think teaches them this idea?

What do you think of someone moving to a place they like because of a unique society and then lobbying to change that society to be like the one they left?

 

[Balifrog]

yes, I'm very intolerant for this one. I ban smoking in my premise, in my car, any where I can control. Unfortunately, or fortunately for many people my control is very-very limited.

Same, never accepted anybody amoking in my car or home. Even if it is a sexy girl !

 

[fastpitch17]

40 years ago Indonesians, kids included, were some of the most polite people I'd ever been around, and most folks where I'm from are quite well mannered. Then somethingappened, probably American movies and television and a more consumer oriented outlook.

The poor Indonesians couldn't afford to see American movies or cable/satellite TV to view American shows. Evidently you have not bothered to pay any attention to the home grown soap opera shows being broadcast on free TV. Those are some f***ked up story lines. Maybe they just mirror Indonesia society. Everybody cheating in their spouse with someone more rich, Sleeping with the housekeepers, wives being made slaves to the MiL, family if one spouse who are poor moving in and taking over the richer spouse's house, theft of all the legal ownership documentation, and while a few may see a short stay in jail, no one ever prosecuted. Take a look if you want to see what people are watching. Then go look at the Indian shows they offer. You can leave America out of it.

 

[Balifrog]

The poor Indonesians couldn't afford to see American movies or cable/satellite TV to view American shows. Evidently you have not bothered to pay any attention to the home grown soap opera shows being broadcast on free TV. Those are some f***ked up story lines. Maybe they just mirror Indonesia society. Everybody cheating in their spouse with someone more rich, Sleeping with the housekeepers, wives being made slaves to the MiL, family if one spouse who are poor moving in and taking over the richer spouse's house, theft of all the legal ownership documentation, and while a few may see a short stay in jail, no one ever prosecuted. Take a look if you want to see what people are watching. Then go look at the Indian shows they offer. You can leave America out of it.

Having lived in various Asian countries, I was surprised (well, the 1st year..) by the level of ridicule of the Korean, Thai, Vietnamese, Chinese, Indonesian "drama" series

The question I still ask myself is ;
Are the TV dramas a reflection of society or is society copying from the TV dramas ?
Personally I think it is the first... And of course it will confirm in people's mind that this is the normal way...

Now in the West we have a LOT of "reality shows," of an absolute silliness, nursery school level.
But contrary to Asia, it is the new Western generation copying from it. Social media being a perfect example.

 

[Wisnu]

Some say Indonesians are nice and polite people. Huh?

Not my experience. Most of them are rude ... holding a door for another person just a couple of steps behind, is too much asked for. Yesterday in the elevator I grabbed a phone out of the hands of a child, because the volume was too hard. His mother stand next to him. Most of them just don't consider other people. I can keep going on with more examples.

very interesting observation, I will not deny what you are experiencing, but why you bother to stay in the country where most of people are rude to you?
I lived in many locations singapore, Brunei, kazakhstan, NL, Egypt and Nigeria - most people are nice, but yes there's always few people not very nice.
I recall when I lived in KZ, one of my colleague - a small (smaller than me) Dutch guy- keep complaining, everything is not right, people rude, beer like pee, latex beef steak, lazy worker not listening him, very slow, ect it seem like his life was full of misery - then in one occasion, my my boss - another Dutch (big man, bigger than most dutch, one of the person i most respect) scold him - why dont you look yourself? if all here like in Rijswijk, we dont need you; you;re expat, company pay you premium to solve the problems, not adding problem.
Interestingly, a year latter, when company decided not to extend his assignment, he was begging to me to influence the boss to keep him in the country.

 

[Wisnu]

Decades ago, when I visited my uncle in Solo before I left and settled abroad, he gave a message in Javanese: “ojo dadi wong londo, ora nduwe unggah ungguh lan tata kromo, perilaku koyo butho, ora tau adus, ambune prengus, pengen menange dewe, ….
Free translation: don't be a londo (londo in javenese mean Dutch as well as Caucasian) , have no manners and etiquette, behave like a troll, never bathe, smell like a goat.
I was nodding: “nggih om, matut nuwun”. Wife (she’s from east jave and grown in Papua) tried to hide her chuckling.
The point I’d like to raise here; what my uncle said is not wrong from his perception, his POV due to his limited exposure, plus his bad experience during colonialism era (my great grandfather was tortured by Dutch soldier) was another background that bring to what was in his mind. And I believe he’s not the only one.

I also remember a story of a blindman (no pun intended) with elephant, when he touch the asXhxle.

 

[Wisnu]

I'm not denying many thing far from prefect. But when somebody claim, all, most, everything, are not right- then s/he should look himself.
Horse goggles is best for horse but not for human.

 

[Balifrog]

Some say Indonesians are nice and polite people. Huh?

My experience, only 7 years and Bali only.

Never had problems with locals, except occasionnally the roaming kids.
Now, the crowd coming from Jakarta for weekends or public holidays, they are generally very annoying. Loud speaking in the resort gardens or at the pool at 06:00 am for example. And when on the phone....
But still nothing compared to Indians or Chinese...

 

[Wisnu]

One day a man met Buya, he told him with great enthusiasm, "Subhanallah Buya," he said. "I really didn't expect it. It turns out that there is a prostitute in Mecca, Buya. How is that possible, Buya? Yuck. Horrified.”

"Oh yeah?" said Buya Hamka. “I was just from Los Angeles and New York. And thank God, it turns out there are no prostitutes there.”

"Ah, how could it be Buya! There are some in Makkah. There are certainly many more in America!”

"We will only be met," said Buya with a calm smile, "With what we are looking for." Even though we go to Mecca, if what our hearts are hunting for are bad things, Satan from the jinn or humans will not lack of ways to help us get it. And even if he goes to Los Angeles and New York, if what he is looking for is virtue, then all ugliness will be reluctant and hidden.

 

[centurion]

Free translation: don't be a londo (londo in javenese mean Dutch as well as Caucasian) , have no manners and etiquette, behave like a troll, never bathe, smell like a goat.

Javanese have a high culture, so they can say that. Caucasians have more swetting cells than Indonesians, sweat excessivelly, and smell bad to Indonesians.

 

[centurion]

I find Indonesians pretty polite and helpful, especially if you speak the Indonesian language. There are some spoiled, but nothing alarming. Seen worse in other countries.

Maybe combination of soy food (increasing estrogen), lack of meat in diet, and no alcohol consumption makes less aggressive character.

 

[Samoerai]

My experience, only 7 years and Bali only.

Never had problems with locals, except occasionnally the roaming kids.
Now, the crowd coming from Jakarta for weekends or public holidays, they are generally very annoying. Loud speaking in the resort gardens or at the pool at 06:00 am for example. And when on the phone....
But still nothing compared to Indians or Chinese...

Same experience in Yogyakarta, just a couple of weeks ago.

But what can one expect? This is a developing country. Some couple of hundreds years ago, in Europe it was normal to eat with hands, burp and throw up at the dining table.
Luckily, Indonesians don't throw up at the dining table

If this country wants to get out of the 'stuck in the middle class economy' , things have to change ...

 

[Balifrog]

Free translation: don't be a londo (londo in javenese mean Dutch as well as Caucasian) , have no manners and etiquette, behave like a troll, never bathe, smell like a goat.

That must be the idea Balinese have when seeing the Aussies here... And they will generalize to all Westerners !
No shirt, proudly showing their beer belly and tattoos. Using the F word in every phrase, not able to speak but only to shout. Jumpng up and down in front of the TV. Considering wearing a Bingtan singlet is being dressed up. Keeping their cap on when sitting in the restaurant. Complaining about the poor English of the locals when adressing them in Aussie slang...
Shall I continue ?
When asked by a driver "where are you from", I happily answer France. And the discussion switch to football .... Zidane for the old crowd, Mbappe for the younger ones.

 

[Balifrog]

Same experience in Yogyakarta, just a couple of weeks ago.

But what can one expect? This is a developing country. Some couple of hundreds years ago, in Europe it was normal to eat with hands, burp and throw up at the dining table.

If this country wants to get out of the 'stuck in the middle class economy' , things have to change ...

Cuttlery started to be used in France in the 16th Century.
Chinese used basic ones way before us..

Invention of the Fork | How Did Forks Come to Be?

How did forks come to be?

www.foodunfolded.com

 

[Samoerai]

My experience, only 7 years and Bali only.

Never had problems with locals, except occasionnally the roaming kids.
Now, the crowd coming from Jakarta for weekends or public holidays, they are generally very annoying. Loud speaking in the resort gardens or at the pool at 06:00 am for example. And when on the phone....
But still nothing compared to Indians or Chinese...

So, that might be the downside of living in a resort?

 

[Shadrach]

Having lived in various Asian countries, I was surprised (well, the 1st year..) by the level of ridicule of the Korean, Thai, Vietnamese, Chinese, Indonesian "drama" series

The question I still ask myself is ;
Are the TV dramas a reflection of society or is society copying from the TV dramas ?
Personally I think it is the first... And of course it will confirm in people's mind that this is the normal way...

Now in the West we have a LOT of "reality shows," of an absolute silliness, nursery school level.
But contrary to Asia, it is the new Western generation copying from it. Social media being a perfect example.

While watching YouTube now, I see way too much advertising! Plus most of it is silly young Korean boys dancing, about a chocolate drink, or silly Korean girls dressed in junior high school uniforms, jumping up and down, acting like they're thrilled over instant noodles. I don't understand why all the ads are so childish? Is this really what locals want to see?

 

[Balifrog]

So, that might be the downside of living in a resort?

Easy to avoid them....
Same as they aboid any place where Bintang cost more than 25k.....

 

[Shadrach]

My experience, only 7 years and Bali only.

Never had problems with locals, except occasionnally the roaming kids.
Now, the crowd coming from Jakarta for weekends or public holidays, they are generally very annoying. Loud speaking in the resort gardens or at the pool at 06:00 am for example. And when on the phone....
But still nothing compared to Indians or Chinese...

Where have you been during Ramadan? I was in Jogjakarta once, and the muslims were incredible loud after the sun went down, and at 5:00 AM in the morning.no consideration for others sleeping near them.

 

[Samoerai]

Easy to avoid them....
Same as they aboid any place where Bintang cost more than 25k.....

That's my strategy as well, like flying with Garuda instead of BatikAir. Staying in 5 star hotels. But does not unfold as planned in some cases.