Back as an upper-middle income country, but will Indonesia be trapped there?

[Bob]

My prayer is that mosque loudspeakers are banned for ever, and the number of mosques and mushollas are reduced by around 80% so that they don't disturb the masyarakat so much, leading to a more peaceful society. Let's see if there really is a God so that he can make it come true. I'm not holding my breath ...

Churches and temples too?
You realize that the mosques, mushollas, and other places of worship are there to serve the masyarakat, no?

 

[flavus]

I have a slightly different approach, which is to invest in loudspeakers myself, and then to play Highway to Hell by AC/DC at the exact same time as they start screaming. AC/DC wins every time.

Reminds me of that scene from Neal Stephenson's debut novel The Big U! (He was apparently not proud of that work but it's hilarious)

 

[flavus]

Churches and temples too?
You realize that the mosques, mushollas, and other places of worship are there to serve the masyarakat, no?

Balance is needed though. I agree that banning something completely won't help (and also that it won't happen) - but yeah, there are complaints from some Muslims about church bells too (even though, as far as I can tell, these are both less loud and less frequent!).

I think in general we need better noise pollution limits. e.g. the existing guidance on how loud mosque loudspeakers can be should be

• generalized to at least cover all calls to worship, or even better, all noises (maybe with varied limits depending on need)
• actually be enforced

 

[Hawk256]

I have a slightly different approach, which is to invest in loudspeakers myself, and then to play Highway to Hell by AC/DC at the exact same time as they start screaming. AC/DC wins every time.

Let me know how that works out. Just make sure to capture it on video.

 

[fastpitch17]

Keeping population growth to a modest level or flat shouldn't adversely affect the economy and would help lower pollution and resource usage in the long term.
I agree with your other points.

So would enforcing traffic laws.

 

[Bob]

So would enforcing traffic laws.

I'm sure that will be in place any time now...

 

[centurion]

Another step toward a developed country:
The Supreme Court issued a Circular Letter to lower courts instructing judges not to allow interfaith marriages anymore.

MA Larang Hakim Izinkan Pernikahan Beda Agama

PN Jakpus mengesahkan pernikahan beda agama yang diajukan oleh sepasang suami istri yang terkendala karena tak bisa mencatat pernikahannya di Dukcapil

nasional.kompas.com

 

[Samoerai]

The Supreme Court issued a Circular Letter to lower courts instructing judges not to allow interfaith marriages anymore.

Maybe from one of those interfaith marriages a new "Einstein" could have been born ... too bad it will never happen.

 

[Pak Tani]

I have a slightly different approach, which is to invest in loudspeakers myself, and then to play Highway to Hell by AC/DC at the exact same time as they start screaming.

Talking about Darwin (awards)...

 

[Samoerai]

Talking about Darwin (awards)...

One of the awards could be given to The Supreme Court ..

 

[Pak Tani]

My prayer is that mosque loudspeakers are banned for ever, and the number of mosques and mushollas are reduced by around 80%...

So after the loudspeakers are banned you still want 80% of these 'quiet' mosques and mushollas away? Is their mere presence bothering you that much?

...so that they don't disturb the masyarakat so much, leading to a more peaceful society.

You expect Indonesia to become a more peaceful society by distancing people from their religion. I don't understand why you seem convinced that such a fundamental change in society would lead to something good. Be careful what you wish for, the consequences are incalculable.
Indonesia has a lot to work on but we are not Mexico where cartels ambush police and military. We don't have 50.000 homicides a year like in Brazil and no violent drug epidemic like in many South American countries. And we are far from South Africa, number 1 rape nation in the world.
Why? The answer is not that obvious. Or maybe it is?

 

[flavus]

Another step toward a developed country:
The Supreme Court issued a Circular Letter to lower courts instructing judges not to allow interfaith marriages anymore.

MA Larang Hakim Izinkan Pernikahan Beda Agama

PN Jakpus mengesahkan pernikahan beda agama yang diajukan oleh sepasang suami istri yang terkendala karena tak bisa mencatat pernikahannya di Dukcapil

nasional.kompas.com

In effect this has been happening for a few years. A friend got married in Singapore, and found to his chagrin that registering it in Jakarta no longer worked until one of the married couple update their KTP to match the other's religious affiliation first.

Sigh. So much tribalism.

 

[centurion]

In effect this has been happening for a few years. A friend got married in Singapore, and found to his chagrin that registering it in Jakarta no longer worked until one of the married couple update their KTP to match the other's religious affiliation first.

Sigh. So much tribalism.

Sure, but the judges till now were approving these kinds of marriages on a case-by-case base (obviously too much for the guardians of the nations's morality). Now that is coming to an end.

And actually, down the road, this can extend to other interfaith couples (i.e. Buddhist-Christians/Hindu with Confucians, etc)

 

[fastpitch17]

Sure, but the judges till now were approving these kinds of marriages on a case-by-case base (obviously too much for the guardians of the nations's morality). Now that is coming to an end.

And actually, down the road, this can extend to other interfaith couples (i.e. Buddhist-Christians/Hindu with Confucians, etc)

I read it as if it does relate to all religions. No mention of those already registered so I guess many of us are safe. I did notice that the previous marriages noted that it was the females who were Muslim. I bet male muslims can still marry whomever these please since the new wife is expected to follow the husbands religion. If not, they will never hear the end if it from others.

 

[centurion]

So after the loudspeakers are banned you still want 80% of these 'quiet' mosques and mushollas away? Is their mere presence bothering you that much?



You expect Indonesia to become a more peaceful society by distancing people from their religion. I don't understand why you seem convinced that such a fundamental change in society would lead to something good. Be careful what you wish for, the consequences are incalculable.
Indonesia has a lot to work on but we are not Mexico where cartels ambush police and military. We don't have 50.000 homicides a year like in Brazil and no violent drug epidemic like in many South American countries. And we are far from South Africa, number 1 rape nation in the world.
Why? The answer is not that obvious. Or maybe it is?

Indonesians:
-do not drink
-do not have weapons (only the army and the police have them)
-have strong family values across all religions (probably because they are religious).

 

[pantaiema]

Another step toward a developed country:
The Supreme Court issued a Circular Letter to lower courts instructing judges not to allow interfaith marriages anymore.

MA Larang Hakim Izinkan Pernikahan Beda Agama

PN Jakpus mengesahkan pernikahan beda agama yang diajukan oleh sepasang suami istri yang terkendala karena tak bisa mencatat pernikahannya di Dukcapil

nasional.kompas.com

This is the audiovisual version for those who prefer to watch rather than reading


The people in the supreme court, Instead of spending their time, using their knowledges and brains finding solution, they use the easiest option "Ban". Keep in mind interfaiths / religious activities, matters are guaranteed in the Indonesian constitution. Also unity in diversity is clearly spelled out in the constitution. Although this begs a question whether it is against the constitution who could challenge the Supreme court, the highest court in Indonesia for interpreting the Constitution and resolving legal disputes. They prefer to spend most of their time negotiating on how to make money.


Corruption Eradication Commission (KPK) Examines Supreme Court Secretary as a suspect tomorrow Wednesday. Later news, he has been treated as a suspect. There a re a lot of whistle blowers regarding bribery in the Indonesian Supreme court. This is just the tip in the ice berg.
There thread about mega corruption in Indonesia is here

Indonesia & Corruption: a few articles in the past few weeks

While there is still the group of untouchables, it has been encouraging to see high level officials being charged with corruption. But I do wonder about follow up with charges laid against those offering and providing bribes. I can understand the difficulties involving foreign entities but why...

www.expatindo.org

There are some decisions made by judges that involve huge amount of money made by this institution that beg big questions. Such as "Lapindo mud Case", ordering the government to pay to Yusuf Hamka (YK). This might be just the tips iceberg.

If the ban for inter religious marriage has ever happened in the developed worlds. They will be very busy to answer the question.

I open a new thread in here to void messing up with the original topic.

Interfaith / religious marriage is banned by the Supreme court.

The issue is originally raised in expatindo.org in this thread https://www.expatindo.org/community/threads/back-as-an-upper-middle-income-country-but-will-indonesia-be-trapped-there.7172/page-8#post-95012 But because it is different topic and it might effect many people, expats in Indonesia, I...

www.expatindo.org

 

[Helpful Herbert]

In effect this has been happening for a few years. A friend got married in Singapore, and found to his chagrin that registering it in Jakarta no longer worked until one of the married couple update their KTP to match the other's religious affiliation first.

I wonder what happens if you try to change the KTP back to your original religion again afterwards? Regarded as an apostate?

 

[flavus]

I wonder what happens if you try to change the KTP back to your original religion again afterwards? Regarded as an apostate?

Pretty sure they don't (currently) require an official letter from your previous religion when you're renouncing
(unlike Germany - I have colleagues who have an informal "excommunicated club" - you actually have to have a letter of excommunication if you want to ask the tax office to stop collecting church tax out of your salary)

 

[fastpitch17]

OK, someone has a mixed marriage and resides in Indonesia with a spouse sponsored KITAP. Upon renewal, will one or the other be required to change their religious affiliation concerning their KTP? What if lifetime KTAP. Has this even been addressed?

 

[Balifrog]

OK, someone has a mixed marriage and resides in Indonesia with a spouse sponsored KITAP. Upon renewal, will one or the other be required to change their religious affiliation concerning their KTP? What if lifetime KTAP. Has this even been addressed?

Raise the moral / personal ethic issue.
If you are a real, practising believer in any religion would you forfait / abandon that religion just to marry ?
What is more important for you (you in a global sense) ?

Personally, even I am not a "practising" Christian (meaning I am not going to church or reading the Bible) i would never change my religion.
And sure not for "administrative" reasons.

And "forcing" the other party to change is definitively not fair.

Just my personal opinion.

Disclaimer : Been married 15 y with a Thai, religion not an issue.
Am living together with an Indo Hindu since 8 y, married is not planned (age related), but even without the age thing it would be a nono.
I am not going to change religion, and neither would she.