Back as an upper-middle income country, but will Indonesia be trapped there?

[flavus]

Income not equivalent to welfare

The middle-income trap, simply put, is when a country has developed so far that it struggles to compete with less developed countries on labor unit costs while not having advanced far enough to compete with more developed countries on competence.

www.thejakartapost.com

Good overview of the middle income trap, the way out, and that income is not everything but ensuring people's needs are met equitably is.

As an emigre... I can't help but think part of the solution would have to involve making it easier for the diaspora to return and for foreigners to settle and work in Indonesia, but ... we'll see

 

[Samoerai]

. I can't help but think part of the solution

Start with ..
1. Dua anak cukup
2. Free and good education
3. Don't say "kerja untuk Indonesia". But "kerja bagus untuk Indonesia". Only be proud of good quality results.
4. Less corruption
5. As a country, be good in one thing and trade that.
6. Improve infrastructure
7. Step up to implement green energy resources (solar pannels, wind energy, hydrogen, etc).
8. Ban carbon based fuel cars and motors. Support electric based cars and motors
9. Implement social security system.
10. Let the mosques stop making noise in the middle of the night.

Would be my top 10.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Your no. 10 would be my no. 1.

If I remember correctly, at the start of covid Indonesia moved up to upper middle income, and then last year they moved down to lower middle income again ,and now they're moving back to upper middle income again. So it would be quite an achievement just to stay in the upper middle income category for them. More likely they will yo-yo between the 2 depending on commodity prices.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

5. As a country, be good in one thing and trade that.

That's easy. Indomie goreng.

 

[flavus]

1. Dua anak cukup
2. Free and good education
3. Don't say "kerja untuk Indonesia". But "kerja bagus untuk Indonesia". Only be proud of good quality results.

These definitely are interrelated - harder to provide quality free education if there is a rapidly growing population.

And hard to find the money to pay teachers and academics well so the profession is highly desirable.

eg a lot of professors in private universities in the US hold private sector positions too. Obviously they need to be compensated accordingly.

Singapore pays public school teachers and staff really well too (US is bad at this)

 

[Samoerai]

These definitely are interrelated - harder to provide quality free education if there is a rapidly growing population.

And hard to find the money to pay teachers and academics well so the profession is highly desirable.

eg a lot of professors in private universities in the US hold private sector positions too. Obviously they need to be compensated accordingly.

Singapore pays public school teachers and staff really well too (US is bad at this)

In the Netherlands, during Covid when children had to stay home, they realized that schoolteachers have a tough job and are the ones taking care of children most of the day, 5 days a week. They raised the salaries of schoolteachers. Their salaries were not bad to begin with, btw, and are paid by the government.

 

[SamR]

That's easy. Indomie goreng.

That's actually not a bad idea. Considering that not just Indomie, but other Indonesian FMCGs are consumed overseas and has a market there, I don't think there has ever been a government effort to actively promote such things.

Singapore pays public school teachers and staff really well too (US is bad at this)

I suppose that it's a reflection of how much they value education over there in SG. And by valuing education I mean the whole performing academically thing. I think in Indonesia, people are still stuck in valuing education for its prestige aspect ("My son goes to school x where it's full English language no bahasa, has bule teachers, and he's classmates with the kids of celebrity y and conglomerate z"). How much more intelligent the children become, both academically and emotionally, seem to be way further down the priority list.

 

[ChrisTex]

These definitely are interrelated - harder to provide quality free education if there is a rapidly growing population.

And hard to find the money to pay teachers and academics well so the profession is highly desirable.

eg a lot of professors in private universities in the US hold private sector positions too. Obviously they need to be compensated accordingly.

Singapore pays public school teachers and staff really well too (US is bad at this)

Just getting teachers to consider coming to Indonesia is a struggle. Majority of the time China, South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, and the Middle East is where people are going. If you go to reddit, it is the same thing. No one talks about Indonesia.

Even companies like EF where precovid, China, Indonesia, and Russia were the main cashflow, Indonesia got no love. It is all about China and EF has gone back to their misleading recruiting methods(yes I have issues with EF).

 

[Samoerai]

That's actually not a bad idea. Considering that not just Indomie, but other Indonesian FMCGs are consumed overseas and has a market there, I don't think there has ever been a government effort to actively promote such things.


I suppose that it's a reflection of how much they value education over there in SG. And by valuing education I mean the whole performing academically thing. I think in Indonesia, people are still stuck in valuing education for its prestige aspect ("My son goes to school x where it's full English language no bahasa, has bule teachers, and he's classmates with the kids of celebrity y and conglomerate z"). How much more intelligent the children become, both academically and emotionally, seem to be way further down the priority list.

What I noticed here in Indonesia .. is a bit shocking. The children are basicly raised by the pembantu and accordingly. I saw a child screaming and jumping up and down in the elevator. I said "Dia terlalu makan banyak gula?". The pembantu said "Tapi dia manis". Great start for children's education ... not.

 

[ChrisTex]

What I noticed here in Indonesia .. is a bit shocking. The children are basicly raised by the pembantu and accordingly. I saw a child screaming and jumping up and down in the elevator. I said "terlalu makan banyak gula?". The pembantu said "Tapi manis". Great start for children's education ... not.

Or they are just given some type of device to play with*.

*Not limited to just Indonesia.

 

[flavus]

Even companies like EF where precovid, China, Indonesia, and Russia were the main cashflow, Indonesia got no love. It is all about China and EF has gone back to their misleading recruiting methods(yes I have issues with EF).

Out of curiosity (I totally believe you EF is shady) - what's misleading about this specifically? That they have a single posting that lists only China but then try to send people to other countries?

 

[flavus]

What I noticed here in Indonesia .. is a bit shocking. The children are basicly raised by the pembantu and accordingly. I saw a child screaming and jumping up and down in the elevator. I said "Dia terlalu makan banyak gula?". The pembantu said "Tapi dia manis". Great start for children's education ... not.

Yeah. The last time I was back, that reminds me it's not uncommon to see family dinners where all adults and kids were on their phones or iPads with a nanny (or two) in tow.

The worst story I hear is with the nanny renting out a baby to be used by street beggars - and the parents noticing that the kid is getting really tanned.

Part of this is, again, social infra -- are there decent daycares in Indonesia? -- but partly also parents (both parents) not being involved enough.

 

[snpark]

EF promise kitas imta accommodation etc even a decent salary lol
But lucky to get 10jt a month and pay your own way and work long hours and all on a VOA etc

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Yeah. The last time I was back, that reminds me it's not uncommon to see family dinners where all adults and kids were on their phones or iPads with a nanny (or two) in tow.

This happens in every country now (minus the nanny bit)

 

[Balifrog]

This happens in every country now (minus the nanny bit)

Parents giving the wrong example, what you expect the kids to do ?
Same as dads walking shirtless in the street, a beer in the hand and the family in tow...
Parenting in most countries is a terrible now.
Maybe thay learn it on F.B. and TikTok ?

 

[flavus]

This happens in every country now (minus the nanny bit)

I am sure. Not to the same extent though (at least I don't see that as much in the US!)

 

[flavus]

EF promise kitas imta accommodation etc even a decent salary lol
But lucky to get 10jt a month and pay your own way and work long hours and all on a VOA etc

On VOA, sheesh. How much did they pay immigration and manpower to look the other way?

 

[snpark]

Nothing. Everyone gets caught. Guess who gets screwed. You. Not them.

 

[snpark]

They tell you to stay home if they get sniff of a raid. Or to run away during one

 

[Samoerai]

Just getting teachers to consider coming to Indonesia is a struggle. Majority of the time China, South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, and the Middle East is where people are going.

That's why the level of education in Indonesia is relatively low, including the international schools. Salaries are too low and working permits procedures are too complicated. I read in another thread that parents want to homeschool their only daughter. I would too.