Interfaith / religious marriage is banned by the Supreme court.

[pantaiema]

The issue is originally raised in expatindo.org in this thread

Back as an upper-middle income country, but will Indonesia be trapped there?

My prayer is that mosque loudspeakers are banned for ever, and the number of mosques and mushollas are reduced by around 80% so that they don't disturb the masyarakat so much, leading to a more peaceful society. Let's see if there really is a God so that he can make it come true. I'm not holding...

www.expatindo.org

But because it is different topic and it might effect many people, expats in Indonesia, I open a new thread to avoid messing up with the original topic on the other thread.

This is the original articles

MA Larang Hakim Izinkan Pernikahan Beda Agama

PN Jakpus mengesahkan pernikahan beda agama yang diajukan oleh sepasang suami istri yang terkendala karena tak bisa mencatat pernikahannya di Dukcapil

nasional.kompas.com

The Indonesian Supreme court banned interfaith / religious marriage by issuing a Circular Letter (SEMA) Number 2 of 2023 concerning Guidelines for Judges in Trying Cases for Requests for Registration of Inter-Religious Marriages of Different Religions and Beliefs.

In my personal opinion interfaith / religious marriage is a good thing for Indonesia because:

1. It could promote religious tolerance and understanding. When people from different religious backgrounds come together in marriage, they have the opportunity to learn about each other's beliefs and practices. This can lead to greater understanding and tolerance of other religions.
2. People who grow up in interreligious families often have a unique perspective on life. They are exposed to different cultures and religions, which can give them a more well-rounded view of the world.
3. It could be a source of strength and resilience. Interreligious couples often have to overcome challenges that other couples do not face. This can make them stronger and more resilient as a couple.

But the strong arguments in my personal opinion for the case of interfaith / religious marriage in Indonesia are:

1. Religion and marriage are personal things, it does not cause harm to society so it begs questions whether there is an issue of human right here (?)
2. Interfaith / religious matters are guaranteed in the Indonesian constitution. Also the legacy of the Interfaith/religions is clearly spelled out in the Indonesian constitution, in the state ideology, unity in diversity.
3. There are already various cases in the past where famous Indonesian politiciansdid Interfaith / religious marriages. A few to name
   • Ayu Kartika Dewi, a former special staff of President Joko Widodo, is a Muslim who married a Catholic man, Gerald Bastian.
   • Yuliah Prasetyo, a member of the Indonesian House of Representatives, is a Muslim who married a Protestant man, Benny K. Harman.
   • Ridwan Kamil, the governor of West Java, is a Muslim who married a Catholic woman, Atalia Praratya.
   • Erick Thohir, the minister of state-owned enterprises, is a Muslim who married a Catholic woman, Elizabeth Tjandra.
   • Mahfud MD, the minister of justice and human rights, is a Muslim who married a Protestant woman, Tri Wuryanti.

This might be another effort to please the hardliner of the religious majority, the Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI). MUI was founded in 1975 by Indonesian ex-President Suharto as a quasi-official state organisation. Suharto has been using this Ulema council as a vehicle for his political gain. Also it might be something to do with the general election where Erick Thohir, Mahfud MD are among the strong candidates for the vice presidents.

This is one of the online debate among law practitioners

What is weird here, they do not even touch what the constitution have been saying and the reference to previous cases that have been decided ? Veny very interesting the way the judges in the Indonesian Supreme Court make decision. Also one side is too polite not to mention the various corruption cases that have emerged emerged involving some staffs. judges in the Indonesian supreme court.

In the first ruling for the above case, the interfaith / religious marriage was approved, citing the constitution, article 29 UUD 1945, state ideology dan Article 2 UU Nomor 1 Tahun 1974 about marriage.

https://nasional.kompas.com/read/20...terhadap-hakim-pn-jakpus-soal-izin-nikah-beda.

KY Verifikasi Laporan PB SEMII terhadap Hakim PN Jakpus soal Izin Nikah Beda Agama

'Tahapan pertama adalah memverifikasi kelengkapan formil maupun materil dari laporan ini,' katanya.

nasional.kompas.com

Religious hardliners, money, love, politics get mixed up in justice and end up in the hands of some people working in the Indonesian highest judicial body.

There are a few recent cases have emerged about what have happened with some judges in the Indonesian the Supreme Court. this is discussed in this thread

Indonesia & Corruption: a few articles in the past few weeks

While there is still the group of untouchables, it has been encouraging to see high level officials being charged with corruption. But I do wonder about follow up with charges laid against those offering and providing bribes. I can understand the difficulties involving foreign entities but why...

www.expatindo.org

This might be just the tip of the ice berg.

What is your opinion about this circular letter ??

 

[Helpful Herbert]

If someone is married outside Indonesia and the Indonesians decide not to recognize it because of different religions then it doesn't mean they're not married.
The main problem I could see is not being able to get a spouse kitap.
A secondary problem could be not being able to have both parents on the birth certificate of any children (back to the old days).

 

[centurion]

If someone is married outside Indonesia and the Indonesians decide not to recognize it because of different religions then it doesn't mean they're not married.

Actually, this is exactly what it means. Cross-border marriage has to cumulatively fulfill the legal requirements of both spouse countries to be valid.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

So if an Indonesian moves to the US, marries an American and lives there for the rest of her life, never returning to Indonesia (while maintaining Indonesian citizenship), you think she was never married?

 

[ilovered]

So if an Indonesian moves to the US, marries an American and lives there for the rest of her life, never returning to Indonesia (while maintaining Indonesian citizenship), you think she was never married?

where did she get married? In the US? if she got married in the US, did she report her wedlock to the embassy? if not, she remains single in Indonesia.

 

[ilovered]

If someone is married outside Indonesia and the Indonesians decide not to recognize it because of different religions then it doesn't mean they're not married.
The main problem I could see is not being able to get a spouse kitap.
A secondary problem could be not being able to have both parents on the birth certificate of any children (back to the old days).

You are forgetting that in the event of civil marriage done outside Indonesia, you need to report the wedlock the civil registry (Dukcapil) in Indonesia for it to be able to become valid only. However, they do not have any say whether it is legal or illegal because of the differences in religion between the bride and the groom.

Upon reporting this, the status of the Indonesian spouse then becomes married to xxx and they are eligible to support their foreign spouse KITAS/KITAP.

 

[Samoerai]

You are forgetting that in the event of civil marriage done outside Indonesia, you need to report the wedlock the civil registry (Dukcapil) in Indonesia for it to be able to become valid only. However, they do not have any say whether it is legal or illegal because of the differences in religion between the bride and the groom.

Upon reporting this, the status of the Indonesian spouse then becomes married to xxx and they are eligible to support their foreign spouse KITAS/KITAP.

Well, problem solved then. But why would newly weds go to court, according to this thread?

 

[ilovered]

Well, problem solved then. But why would newly weds go to court, according to this thread?

Because they were challenging the law and the judge said they can get married. Now, MA/Supreme court said No.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

You are forgetting that in the event of civil marriage done outside Indonesia, you need to report the wedlock the civil registry (Dukcapil) in Indonesia for it to be able to become valid only. However, they do not have any say whether it is legal or illegal because of the differences in religion between the bride and the groom.

Upon reporting this, the status of the Indonesian spouse then becomes married to xxx and they are eligible to support their foreign spouse KITAS/KITAP.

From what I remember, the CatSip is quite happy to change your religion in the system if you ask them to. They don't ask for proof or anything like that. So then you could be in the system as Islam, register the foreign wedding, and then a few weeks or months later change it back to the real religion. Not something a developed country would require, but I think we already established that these religious problems (loudspeakers, marriage etc.) are one of the main things stopping Indonesia developing.

 

[centurion]

So if an Indonesian moves to the US, marries an American and lives there for the rest of her life, never returning to Indonesia (while maintaining Indonesian citizenship), you think she was never married?

In the eyes of Indonesian law, marriage is not valid in Indonesia.

 

[centurion]

From what I remember, the CatSip is quite happy to change your religion in the system if you ask them to. They don't ask for proof or anything like that. So then you could be in the system as Islam, register the foreign wedding, and then a few weeks or months later change it back to the real religion. Not something a developed country would require, but I think we already established that these religious problems (loudspeakers, marriage etc.) are one of the main things stopping Indonesia developing.

It is easy to change if you have a certificate of adherence to your new religion (baptism, conversion, etc) but the churches and other religious institutions are not so willingly giving these documents for the purpose of somebody's marriage to be reverted back later.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

When I was at CatSip they didn't mention anything about needing a certificate of adherence. That was a few years ago though. For example I have Christian on my KTP but no-one ever asked me for any proof.

 

[centurion]

When I was at CatSip they didn't mention anything about needing a certificate of adherence. That was a few years ago though. For example I have Christian on my KTP but no-one ever asked me for any proof.

If you are Indonesian, and if you switch your religion, they would ask.

 

[pantaiema]

From what I remember, the CatSip is quite happy to change your religion in the system if you ask them to. They don't ask for proof or anything like that. So then you could be in the system as Islam, register the foreign wedding, and then a few weeks or months later change it back to the real religion. Not something a developed country would require, but I think we already established that these religious problems (loudspeakers, marriage etc.) are one of the main things stopping Indonesia developing.

I think you should not be taking it for granted. It will depend on who you meet or who processes your application.

In Indonesia you will need to have a religion. It is stated in the constitution UUD 45. Article 29 the state shall be based upon the belief in the one and only God. Indonesian government does not recognise atheism or agnosticism.

There are only six officially recognized religions in Indonesia, i.e Islam, Protestantism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism.

Regarding KTP (e.g Indonesian ID card), since November 7, 2017, you have the option to leave this field (e.g line for religion) blank on the ID card as ruled by the Indonesian constitutional court.

Indonesia: Constitutional Court Opens Way to Recognition of Native Faiths

(Nov. 17, 2017) On November 7, 2017, Indonesia’s Constitutional Court (Mahkamah Konstitusi Republik Indonesia) issued a decision that will allow Indonesians who follow native faiths to list their religions on official forms. According to Justice Arief Hidayat, several articles in the Law on...

www.loc.gov

Constitutional Court rules indigenous faiths 'acknowledged' by state

The Constitutional Court granted a judicial review request on Tuesday to challenge the 2013 Civil Administration Law that will pave way for Indonesian native-faith followers to have their beliefs officially recognized by the government.

www.thejakartapost.com

But the problem here is that they have the right to know your religions as mandated by the constitution. If you leave it blank, and they will need this information you will be busy to provide other mean to proof your religion. Also it is still in the grey area the constitutional court ruling is actually indented for indigenous faiths e,g the followers of religions other than the major faiths

Not to mention, if you need a KTP but refuse to provide the religion field blank they might also refuse processing your application.

 

[flavus]

In the eyes of Indonesian law, marriage is not valid in Indonesia.

Right. This is why I didn't register to vote abroad the last election cycle: what would I put as my marital status? KTP says single, but we were married in the US and have registered it with the consulate ...

(CatSip registration is only needed after returning to Indonesia)

Either way feels wrong

 

[pantaiema]

Because they were challenging the law and the judge said they can get married. Now, MA/Supreme court said No.

The one who challenge and take the case to the supreme court is Mr Yandri Susanto (reference to the video in the debate 01.45-02:05),

Mr Yandri Susanto is a politician from National Mandate Party (PAN) the party who firmly support Anies Baswedan Nomination as a president. It might be that this decision has a political nuance. Also as I mentioned previously it might be to please the hardliner of the religious majority, the Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI). The MUI has been known to vehemently oppose the Interfaith / religious marriage.

 

[flavus]

Just to calcify here the one who challenge this in the supreme court is Mr Yandri Susanto (reference to the video in the debate 01.45-02:05),

Mr Yandri Susanto is a politician from National Mandate Party the party who firmly support Anies Baswedan Nomination fro the president. It might be that this decision has a political nuance.

Ugh. PAN has been increasingly conservative since the high point of 1999 when it presented itself as inclusive

 

[serious_fun]

The MUI has been known to vehemently oppose the Interfaith / religious marriage.

I oppose stupidity. Perhaps I can start a political movement?

Seriously though, my Google Translate reading of the article indicates that it does NOT ban interfaith / religious marriage. It states that "judges are prohibited from granting requests for the registration of interfaith marriages."

This is an entirely different issue. Am I correct in interpreting this ruling as meaning that judges have been told that they must stay out of registry business? This was essentially a clash between factions or bureaucrats was it not? It says nothing about the validity of interfaith marriages per se (legally speaking).

Nevertheless, it reeks of extremism and the influence of what some may refer to as the "neanderthal wing" of Indonesian society. It also is a great reminder to newbies such as myself that local bureaus can do what they'd like, and interpret the constitution as they wish. During an election campaign no candidate will touch this and risk the ire of the neanderthal wing.

Am I wrong?

Here's another article related to this contentious ruling.

 

[pantaiema]

I oppose stupidity. Perhaps I can start a political movement?

Seriously though, my Google Translate reading of the article indicates that it does NOT ban interfaith / religious marriage. It states that "judges are prohibited from granting requests for the registration of interfaith marriages."

This is an entirely different issue. Am I correct in interpreting this ruling as meaning that judges have been told that they must stay out of registry business? This was essentially a clash between factions or bureaucrats was it not? It says nothing about the validity of interfaith marriages per se (legally speaking).

Nevertheless, it reeks of extremism and the influence of what some may refer to as the "neanderthal wing" of Indonesian society. It also is a great reminder to newbies such as myself that local bureaus can do what they'd like, and interpret the constitution as they wish. During an election campaign no candidate will touch this and risk the ire of the neanderthal wing.

Am I wrong?

Here's another article related to this contentious ruling.

That is correct
judges are prohibited from granting requests for the registration of interfaith marriages."

The Supreme court circular letter does not explicitly state that Interfaith marriage is prohibited. They can not do that as it is against the constitution. I agree the title of this thread should be changed as you suggested. I can not edit it as the time to edit the post has expired.

Also keep in mind this is just a supreme court circular letter (SEMA) Number 2 of 2023 concerning Guidelines for Judges in Trying Cases for Requests for Registration of Inter-Religious Marriages of Different Religions and Beliefs.

A circular letter does not have a hierarchy in law. It is a type of official document that is used by government departments, agencies for a mass communication, to announce new policies, guidelines, procedures, or changes.

But keep in mind The 1974 Marriage Law does state that a marriage is valid if conducted according to the laws of religion and belief of both sides. In the past people go to the court to validate their marriage as the judges have the discretion to approve or deny interfaith marriage applications on a case-by-case basis. There are already a few instances where the interfaith marriages are approved.

Without the court ruling as I understand it the interfaith marriage was not recognized by the state (considered not married). But with this circular letter, this case-by-case route is closed (?). While the supreme court could issue a circular letter, it is important to note that the Supreme Court cannot order other judges to do anything that is illegal or that violates the constitution. If a lower court judge believes that a circular letter from the Supreme Court is invalid, they can challenge the letter in court. But this is just a personal non-expert's opinion so take it with a pinch of salt.

 

[serious_fun]

I suppose that the only way to be sure that one's marriage is valid is to be married overseas!