Back as an upper-middle income country, but will Indonesia be trapped there?

[Pak Tani]

Seriously, I just don't understand the mosque part. I mean I am a muslim and I do my prayers five times a day and i barely hear the prayer calls from the mosques, especially for the morning prayer. And i can tell there is no prayer call in the middle of the night. If you refer to the recital they play before Friday prayer, or Thursday night , or it might be before any prayer depending where you live , but i can tell the guy/s who play the recording on the loudspeaker they don't even listen to that, we as muslims, we don't even bother to listen to it. Why would you? Why even care about that ? I mean how many mosques do you have in your neighborhood? I have 3 mosques in walking distance from where i live and i barely hear the sound of the prayer call for morning and that's 5 in the morning. I wish i could switch places with you guys where mosque loudspeakers aren't letting you sleep!!

I think Samoerai's number 10 on the list to help Indonesia get out of the middle-income trap has something to do with more productivity and better concentration after a good night's sleep. I'd prefer that the mosque speakers be used only for the adzan, but I am unsure if this will significantly increase GDP.
With all respect to Samoerai, I think some other items on his list will cause more harm than good. Allow me to elaborate.
1. Dua anak cukup.
I think this is not something the government should interfere with, it's a couple's choice to have no children, 1 or many. Besides that, capping at 2 kids max with a 15% infertility rate of couples, the population will shrink. And that will hurt the economy. A lot. With less consumption companies' stock market value will go down, aging population with no one to pay pensions and take care of the elderly. Japan, and Korea are already experiencing it. Some Western European countries escape this by net migration, but this has its pitfalls.
Rather, a growing population is good for the economy, and labor could become an export product of Indonesia to countries that are in dire need of workers (see the thread on nurses needed abroad)
6. Improved infrastructure is vital, but as we can see happening right now some of these investments are made with huge loans from foreign countries (China). This will make Indonesia vulnerable to their growing influence.
8. Banning fossil fuels in a poor country like Indonesia will lead to a complete economic standstill. Forbidding the affordable means of transportation while subsidizing the more expensive EV's will cause great inequality and division between rich and poor.
9. A social security system...will this create a better economy? Higher taxes that's for sure. Wages will have to go up to compete, and more inflation?

With number 2 I agree very much, education needs to be affordable and of good quality. It's a very important key to progress and development.

 

[Pak Tani]

You could be a very devoted Muslim i tell you, because it's very hard to wake up at that time of the night, i have been trying very hard to do that with my phone's alarm and also loudspeakers from the nearby mosques , yet I can't get up.

Mister, you need to go to bed earlier.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

15 mosques in one neighborhood, you should've known that's not pleasant place to live when you did that survey.

What will your next trolling be?
'I have never seen any traffic in Jakarta. Obviously people who complain of traffic are either making it up, or just driving on the wrong roads not the roads that I drive on. Why would you live in an area that has traffic?'

 

[snpark]

The same reason Americans visit Windsor castle in UK and ask why the Queen built it so near Heathrow and all those noisy planes

 

[Lemonyellow]

Well you have endured 2 years of physical torture by one mosque now it comes to 15, I mean you're doing well. It gradually grows on you, right?

 

[ChrisTex]

Seriously, I just don't understand the mosque part. I mean I am a muslim and I do my prayers five times a day and i barely hear the prayer calls from the mosques, especially for the morning prayer. And i can tell there is no prayer call in the middle of the night. If you refer to the recital they play before Friday prayer, or Thursday night , or it might be before any prayer depending where you live , but i can tell the guy/s who play the recording on the loudspeaker they don't even listen to that, we as muslims, we don't even bother to listen to it. Why would you? Why even care about that ? I mean how many mosques do you have in your neighborhood? I have 3 mosques in walking distance from where i live and i barely hear the sound of the prayer call for morning and that's 5 in the morning. I wish i could switch places with you guys where mosque loudspeakers aren't letting you sleep!!

So why play the loudspeakers so loud or have the even prayers coming on TV? What about the Friday prayers where they sound like karens who are demanding to speak to the manager?

I remember @Nimbus talking about it in some post/thread long ago about how some of it has to do with getting people to go to those mosques and help donating financially.

 

[flavus]

This could be more bad news: the world might be in a global trade recession

And for the 2010s trade growth is below GDP growth anyway; we certainly seem to be past peak globalization

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2023/07/global-trade-recession-may-have-already-started

 

[Samoerai]

I think Samoerai's number 10 on the list to help Indonesia get out of the middle-income trap has something to do with more productivity and better concentration after a good night's sleep. I'd prefer that the mosque speakers be used only for the adzan, but I am unsure if this will significantly increase GDP.
With all respect to Samoerai, I think some other items on his list will cause more harm than good. Allow me to elaborate.
1. Dua anak cukup.
I think this is not something the government should interfere with, it's a couple's choice to have no children, 1 or many. Besides that, capping at 2 kids max with a 15% infertility rate of couples, the population will shrink. And that will hurt the economy. A lot. With less consumption companies' stock market value will go down, aging population with no one to pay pensions and take care of the elderly. Japan, and Korea are already experiencing it. Some Western European countries escape this by net migration, but this has its pitfalls.
Rather, a growing population is good for the economy, and labor could become an export product of Indonesia to countries that are in dire need of workers (see the thread on nurses needed abroad)
6. Improved infrastructure is vital, but as we can see happening right now some of these investments are made with huge loans from foreign countries (China). This will make Indonesia vulnerable to their growing influence.
8. Banning fossil fuels in a poor country like Indonesia will lead to a complete economic standstill. Forbidding the affordable means of transportation while subsidizing the more expensive EV's will cause great inequality and division between rich and poor.
9. A social security system...will this create a better economy? Higher taxes that's for sure. Wages will have to go up to compete, and more inflation?

With number 2 I agree very much, education needs to be affordable and of good quality. It's a very important key to progress and development.

Tja, many roads lead to Rome.

Indonesia currently has 280 million people, with median around 30 years, meaning half of 280 million people are younger than 30 years old. So, at least a workforce of 140 million people for the next 30 years. Based on this workforce the economy of Indonesia could rise to the next level.

The economy of Indonesia doesn't need to depend on the numbers of people. Less is more.
A country's population needs '2 anak' to replace the parents. Every child more than 2 will make a not necessary footprint on earth, meaning every human being needs food (chicken, beef, fish, fruit, water), clothes, scooter, car ... vacation etc ... having an impact on earth.

More than 280 million people will also need better infrastructure, otherwise the workforce will lose productive hours because the infrastructure is not suitable to support the numbers of people.

This workforce could produce better and quality products and services to raise the economy of Indonesia. To be able to do that, Indonesia needs better education and needs to focus on the task ahead. To focus ... one needs a good night sleep and during the day not being disturbed by calls for praying. Focus will give better results in the end. With better results, customers are happy, bosses are happy, workers are happy. With social security system, e.g. BPJS for everybody, people will be more happy, better focus, better results ... a better economy.

 

[Lemonyellow]

So why play the loudspeakers so loud or have the even prayers coming on TV? What about the Friday prayers where they sound like karens who are demanding to speak to the manager?

I remember @Nimbus talking about it in some post/thread long ago about how some of it has to do with getting people to go to those mosques and help donating financially.

I wish i had answers for you. I grew up in a muslim majority country and I guess we never thought about the loudspeaker thing, probably because they couldn't afford loudspeakers at that time. But now time has changed, every mosques have speakers. But you should take a look inside specially during the Friday prayer, you will see nobody's paying attention to the sound or the speaker. It's just way it is. We don't care about the sound we never did actually. Sometimes i have to google the prayer time for taking my prayer because I missed the prayer call. Maybe it's different for the people who didn't grow up like me. I just didn't know that it is one of the things that holding back Indonesia's growth that's all.

 

[ChrisTex]

I wish i had answers for you. I grew up in a muslim majority country and I guess we never thought about the loudspeaker thing, probably because they couldn't afford loudspeakers at that time. But now time has changed, every mosques have speakers. But you should take a look inside specially during the Friday prayer, you will see nobody's paying attention to the sound or the speaker. It's just way it is. We don't care about the sound we never did actually. Sometimes i have to google the prayer time for taking my prayer because I missed the prayer call. Maybe it's different for the people who didn't grow up like me. I just didn't know that it is one of the things that holding back Indonesia's growth that's all.

No one is saying anything about inside, but outside. I know people who aren't from Indonesia, but are from Muslim countries and they say the speakers aren't as loud as they are in Indonesia. Back in 2016, there was a case where a lady got charged with blashemy for cutting the cables to the speakers.

 

[pantaiema]

Luckily I brought also my tools from Holland. Some of the defects I took care of myself. Neighbors and "tukangs kerjas" looked at me like I am from another planet. But also in awe that I posses all these professional (electric) tools, more and better than a contractor "biasa" has.?

I think the difference hear is that electric tools for the DIY (do it yourself) are relatively expensive in Indonesia. The exception is if you buy a very cheap one, locally made or cheap made in China.

The point is that none of the neighbors, nor the family of my wife offered any help, like helping with painting the doors, walls ... or even unpacking the boxes. In Holland families and neighbors will come and help you with moving to your new homes. There is also a basic curiosity for the new house: where, how, when .. etc.

I do not think this is typical in Indonesian culture, unless the family, relatives are living quite far away or they do not get along together. Regarding neighbour behaviour, it is now typical in big cities where people do not know their neighbours well any more. For unpacking, loading / unloading the hourly rate for "kuli" (labour) are cheap in Indonesia.

In Holland most of the men (generation: boomers) know how to fix things in and around the house, small things like painting walls and doors, but also the more complex things, like laying floors with "parket" or fixing water pipes, taps or faucets" . I think that even if they want to help (and overcome their "lose face of being called a tukang", they don't even know how to paint a door or wall. For every problem there is a tukang, in their lifes.

Here? Income tax? Apa itu?

They do not want to be called "tukang", "kuli" is one thing. Unless it is done as a hobby; in Indonesia there is no point to learn skills as a craftsman, electrician, plumber, mechanic, builders for DIY purposes. They are cheap and abundant in Indonesia. There is an opportunity cost here, it is better to learn a more valuable skills such as learning IT, foreign languages, pre-university preparation to get accepted to a favourable university etc.

Actually, this kind of curiosity goes for everything, causing the effect that in general people have a high understanding of how things are done in society, like "paying tax, why, how when" and basic knowledge of the tax rules".

Here? Income tax? Apa itu?

I do not have statistical data to back up this, but it is often mentioned that many Indonesians do not know about the income tax as they are mainly working for a single employer such as a civil servant, working at a state owned enterprise, a farmer. If they are working for multiple employers it might be that they do not pay tax at all or the tax has been deducted at source. If they are a sole trader or own their own small businesses they have accountants doing it for them and pay for a pittance.

 

[Hawk256]

What will your next trolling be?
'I have never seen any traffic in Jakarta. Obviously people who complain of traffic are either making it up, or just driving on the wrong roads not the roads that I drive on. Why would you live in an area that has traffic?'

Trying to stay on topic but I would like to address this. One of the strange things about my experience in Indoneisa is concerning the loud speakers from the Mosque. I have lived in 3 different places around Jakarta and traveled all over Indoneisa for the past 5 years extensively. I have never had a noise complaint about what I hear. Maybe my hearing is worse than I thought but it has never woken me up or interfered with my enjoyment of life. 110 db is loud, especially 100 meters away and I find it a unlikely that is an accurate measurement, (most sound gear is rated with 1 watt at 1 meter at less than 100 db. A very loud concert is hardly ever over 110 db at 5 meters and drops 6 db everytime you double the distance) however with that being said, I haven't been in the same places as Herbert. Voice fequencies can carry and even 60 db can seem loud in a quiet room. 80 db is as loud as someone shouting in the same room. The point being if you can hear somehing in your house stronger than a person shouting in the same room, there is some major sound equipment somewhere that could be weaponized.

 

[Samoerai]

Trying to stay on topic but I would like to address this. One of the strange things about my experience in Indoneisa is concerning the loud speakers from the Mosque. I have lived in 3 different places around Jakarta and traveled all over Indoneisa for the past 5 years extensively. I have never had a noise complaint about what I hear. Maybe my hearing is worse than I thought but it has never woken me up or interfered with my enjoyment of life. 110 db is loud, especially 100 meters away and I find it a unlikely that is an accurate measurement, (most sound gear is rated with 1 watt at 1 meter at less than 100 db. A very loud concert is hardly ever over 110 db at 5 meters and drops 6 db everytime you double the distance) however with that being said, I haven't been in the same places as Herbert. Voice fequencies can carry and even 60 db can seem loud in a quiet room. 80 db is as loud as someone shouting in the same room. The point being if you can hear somehing in your house stronger than a person shouting in the same room, there is some major sound equipment somewhere that could be weaponized.

Well, the noise of the mosques in the area of Jakarta / Casablanca apartments are in the category of what Helpful Herbert is describing. And they also let children do the "praying" or what ever it is called. And the voices of children .. well it is not pleasant to listen to.

 

[Hawk256]

Well, the noise of the mosques in the area of Jakarta / Casablanca apartments are in the category of what Helpful Herbert is describing.

There is a scientific limit. Someone can say Mosques are loud and I can't arguee that. Loud can be different between different opinions but when someone says they measured 110 db it's very questionable because of the laws of physics. 30 + years as an audio engineer just tells me that is not right. The math is very easy to do. Tell me how far from the Mosque you were when you measure 110 db and what equipment you used and then I can tell you the about of power and equipment it would take to make that happen. To increase 3 db you need to up the power 10 times. So if I started at 1 watt and 1 meter at say 90 db I would need to go to 10 watts and to get 93 db, 100 watts for 96 db, 1000 watts for 99 db and 10,000 watts for 102 db 20,000 watts for 105 db, This is at 1 meter. You will loose 6 db evertime you double distance, If we are at 105db at one meter, down to 99 db at 2 meters, down to 93 db at 4 meters, down to 87 at 8 meters. Just an example but shows that there are laws to sound reproduction that can't broken.

 

[Samoerai]

There is a scientific limit. Someone can say Mosques are loud and I can't arguee that. Loud can be different between different opinions but when someone says they measured 110 db it's very questionable because of the laws of physics. 30 + years as an audio engineer just tells me that is not right. The math is very easy to do. Tell me how far from the Mosque you were when you measure 110 db and what equipment you used and then I can tell you the about of power and equipment it would take to make that happen. To increase 3 db you need to up the power 10 times. So if I started at 1 watt and 1 meter at say 90 db I would need to go to 10 watts and to get 93 db, 100 watts for 96 db, 1000 watts for 99 db and 10,000 watts for 102 db 20,000 watts for 105 db, This is at 1 meter. You will loose 6 db evertime you double distance, If we are at 105db at one meter, down to 99 db at 2 meters, down to 93 db at 4 meters, down to 87 at 8 meters. Just an example but shows that there are laws to sound reproduction that can't broken.

Can I just say it is loud ... way too loud. I am not the only one saying that. The mosquees are quite present in the neighborhood with their vocals and music. "Too" ... is never good.

 

[centurion]

Can I just say it is loud ... way too loud. I am not the only one saying that. The mosquees are quite present in the neighborhood with their vocals and music. "Too" ... is never good.

You have obviously never entered Boeing 727 from the back rear door.

 

[Nimbus]

Seriously, I just don't understand the mosque part. I mean I am a muslim and I do my prayers five times a day and i barely hear the prayer calls from the mosques, especially for the morning prayer. And i can tell there is no prayer call in the middle of the night. If you refer to the recital they play before Friday prayer, or Thursday night , or it might be before any prayer depending where you live , but i can tell the guy/s who play the recording on the loudspeaker they don't even listen to that, we as muslims, we don't even bother to listen to it. Why would you? Why even care about that ? I mean how many mosques do you have in your neighborhood? I have 3 mosques in walking distance from where i live and i barely hear the sound of the prayer call for morning and that's 5 in the morning. I wish i could switch places with you guys where mosque loudspeakers aren't letting you sleep!!

During Ramadan some kampung mosques would broadcast their entire tarawih prayer on the speakers. It’s not up to midnight, but it can get quite late in the evening.

In the age of smartphones, prayer calls on loud speakers are obsolete. If you can be on WA, IG, and FB 16 hours a day, you know what time it is. If you want to adhere to tradition, then shout the adzan out without electronic amplification, like what you do inside the mosque itself.

The mosque in my parents’ kompleks is built and funded by the kompleks residents, so it doesn’t need to continuously advertise its presence to draw attendance. As such the speakers are kept at a minimum, and kids aren’t allowed to have loud fun in the guise of prayer.

Meanwhile the kampung mosque half a km away blasts its speakers like tomorrow is kiamat, to the point where my taxi driver made a comment about it. He thought a call to prayer is good, but it didn’t need to be that loud.

In my unscientific opinion, part of the loudness is money, the other part is a defiant gesture toward the rich folks around. They may not be flush with cash, but they can yell to their heart’s content and nobody can do a damn thing about it.

 

[flavus]

country's population needs '2 anak' to replace the parents. Every child more than 2 will make a not necessary footprint on earth, meaning every human being needs food (chicken, beef, fish, fruit, water), clothes, scooter, car ... vacation etc ... having an impact on earth.

Statistically, 2.1 children per female is considered the replacement rate - accounting for death etc. So yeah for families the target should be a bit higher, but I think targeting 2 is fine, some people won't listen anyway. In some countries the child subsidy drops above a certain number of children, since the goal is to ensure a stable population.

Pension funds that depend on assuming the population continues growing indefinitely really need to be reformed. Such Defined Benefits plans (whether public or private) are getting rarer, at least in the US and UK, in favor of defined contribution schemes.

Degrowth is not necessarily bad, it just has to be managed

‘Green growth’ doesn’t exist – less of everything is the only way to avert catastrophe | George Monbiot

It is simply not possible to carry on at the current level of economic activity without destroying the environment, says Guardian columnist George Monbiot

www.theguardian.com

 

[flavus]

No one is saying anything about inside, but outside. I know people who aren't from Indonesia, but are from Muslim countries and they say the speakers aren't as loud as they are in Indonesia. Back in 2016, there was a case where a lady got charged with blashemy for cutting the cables to the speakers.

I definitely don't remember it being that loud when visiting Malaysia

 

[snpark]

You have obviously never entered Boeing 727 from the back rear door.

Only Brenda in 1403