Wonders and curiosities

[pantaiema]

So, I am not the only one, not being invited for coffee or lunch? Bit strange in the context of 'gengsi', because having lunch with a bule will give status, right?

You are talking about wealthy Indonesian people, right ? IMO The notion that inviting foreigners will elevate one's status among wealthy Indonesians is a misconception. Many of these individuals are likely to have studied abroad and have encountered foreigners throughout their lives, including in their professional settings. They might even have a few bule in their workforces in Indonesia
Instead of seeking status through social connections with foreigners, they probably prefer to focus on lobbying authorities to secure lucrative governmental projects.

A significant portion of these conglomerates generate their wealth through monopolistic practices, concessions to exploit natural resources, and the acquisition of undervalued, wasteland, lucrative governmental projects. etc.

 

[MamangDudul]

Actually didn't we more talk about middle class instead of wealthy? When we talk about real wealthy people, that's a bit of an other discussion in my opinion.

From my experience wealthy people don't care for Bule, as some kind of status symbol, at all. Cause obviously they already made it.

That's why Iam curious to see if Indonesia can really not change over the next decades if hopefully more people get a better status, better overall standards and more wealth.

 

[Samoerai]

Actually didn't we more talk about middle class instead of wealthy? When we talk about real wealthy people, that's a bit of an other discussion in my opinion.

Indeed, this started with the book I got from Aiko Kurasawa and the consumption pattern of, specifically the (pseudo) middle class. And the (for me) eye opener that middle class have adapted themselves to a mall-based life. That's what I am observing in the malls too, whithout being able to put my finger on it, until now.

 

[MamangDudul]

Indeed, this started with the book I got from Aiko Kurasawa and the consumption pattern of, spefically the (pseudo) middle class. And the (for me) eye opener that middle class have adapted themselves to a mall-based life. That's what I am observing in the malls too, whithout being able to put my finger on it, until now.

That's why I enjoy this discussion. Iam with you about not being able to put my finger on it so far. It were more my personal observations, so this kind of discussion helps to put a few things together and learn that more people seem to have the same observations.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

What alternative is there to a mall-based life in Jakarta? It's not like there is much else to do or other places to eat during the daytime.

 

[Samoerai]

In the Netherlands, there is only one mall. Just opened 3 years ago: "Westfield, the mall of the Nerherlands".

Dutch people in the weekends go play tennis, golf, sailing, ... dancing. Watch their kids play hockey, soccer, tennis. Family visits. Meet friends for lunch or for a drink in a bar in the evening.

I played tennis, mostly in the summer. Golf, also. In the winter, skiing in Zwitserland.
I attended dance classes for years, like ballroom dancing and salsa. Also went to some language classes, just to pick up some basic stuff of Manderin and Spanish.

Here is Jakarta I want(ed) to continue with ballroom dancing, yet not excists. Salsa, yes I did attend some workshops but it is not much organized. Sailing classes? Not excists here. Play tennis? You need a friend. Golf? Yes doing that.

Lots to do in Jakarta, I think, than just hangout in the mall with your kids. I am in the process of checking things out. Badminton maybe?

Point is, the middle class people I observe here in the mall are not very eager to learn new skils. There are plenty things to learn. But most of them are "malassss". Too much hung up on their "gengsi". Just watching their phones all the time. I often say to the gym instructors, why not learn English? You're waisting your time.

I salut Aiko Kurasawa. She is 77 years and after her retirement in Japan, she went to Indonesia and wrote books and doing research in Indonesia. She keeps herself busy.

 

[snpark]

no such thing as friendship here between bule and indonesian (maybe rare occassions) not for work anyway

it is how useful can you be now or in the future

hence pointless for me (example) to go to amcham britcham alpenstam etc etc since they now are just ayam pick up nights and vice versa

i am in Indonesia, I need to be hobnobbing with the important useful local people here if I want to be successful, a chubby 70 year old german guy wont be able to help me much if I have a problem with police, immigration, business permit etc etc

 

[Samoerai]

In the fore mentioned book of Aiko Kurasawa the researchers made a difference between lower class (monthly income around Rp. 2-3 million), low-middle class (Rp. 4-5 million), middle-middle class (Rp. 6-10 million), upper-middle class Rp. 10-15 million) and upper class (living e.g. in gated suburban communities, more than Rp. 15 million per month). Not talking about the elite class.

Because this reseach is 10 years old, I wonder if these figures have changed much?

 

[fastpitch17]

In the fore mentioned book of Aiko Kurasawa the researchers made a difference between lower class (monthly income around Rp. 2-3 million), low-middle class (Rp. 4-5 million), middle-middle class (Rp. 6-10 million), upper-middle class Rp. 10-15 million) and upper class (living e.g. in gated suburban communities, more than Rp. 15 million per month). Not talking about the elite class.

Because this reseach is 10 years old, I wonder if these figures have changed much?

They would have had to change. Take the minimum wage as an example. Has risen considerably since 2013 but the buying power against it has pretty much stayed the same. This is because the cost of all goods be it food to housing has gone up. I understand the upper middle class to be in the 15 to 20 juta per month range so maybe each category has replaced the one below it based on the figures.

 

[Samoerai]

They would have had to change. Take the minimum wage as an example. Has risen considerably since 2013 but the buying power against it has pretty much stayed the same. This is because the cost of all goods be it food to housing has gone up. I understand the upper middle class to be in the 15 to 20 juta per month range so maybe each category has replaced the one below it based on the figures.

Yes, wages have gone up, last decade, but not in line with the price index in Indonesia. Is that what you are saying? So, on average the buying power of people has decreased?

 

[Helpful Herbert]

In the fore mentioned book of Aiko Kurasawa the researchers made a difference between lower class (monthly income around Rp. 2-3 million), low-middle class (Rp. 4-5 million), middle-middle class (Rp. 6-10 million), upper-middle class Rp. 10-15 million) and upper class (living e.g. in gated suburban communities, more than Rp. 15 million per month). Not talking about the elite class.

Because this reseach is 10 years old, I wonder if these figures have changed much?

I'm not sure income level is correlated with class. I would say upper class are people like the oligarchs, former royal family members etc. But even some of them cannot be described as upper class even if they are very rich - looking at the way they behave. I mean who would describe Bakrie or his family as upper class, however rich they are

Anyway most working professionals in Jakarta with at least a few years of experience would be earning a lot more than 15jt (I would say a range of 20-60jt), and these are the people normally considered in most societies to be the middle classes.
People at higher managerial level in banks are probably getting 100jt+, but that doesn't make them upper class. Upper economic/social groups is probably what you mean [such as ABC1 classification that advertisers use] - it takes into account both salary and education level.

 

[Samoerai]

I'm not sure income level is correlated with class. I would say upper class are people like the oligarchs, former royal family members etc. But even some of them cannot be described as upper class even if they are very rich - looking at the way they behave. I mean who would describe Bakrie or his family as upper class, however rich they are

Anyway most working professionals in Jakarta with at least a few years of experience would be earning a lot more than 15jt (I would say a range of 20-60jt), and these are the people normally considered in most societies to be the middle classes.
People at higher managerial level in banks are probably getting 100jt+, but that doesn't make them upper class. Upper economic/social groups is probably what you mean [such as ABC1 classification that advertisers use] - it takes into account both salary and education level.

Thanks, interesting .. wages of 100 juta per month at higher management level. So, husband and wife working at that level have a monthly income of 200 juta. I know some of them (bank BNI), but I doubt that they have that kind of income, the way they behave (always "takut keluar uang").

Anyway, there are many definitions regarding classes. See link.

Aspiring Indonesia: Expanding the Middle Class

The middle class has been growing faster than other groups; there are now at least 52 million economically secure Indonesians, or one Indonesian in every five.

www.worldbank.org

 

[snpark]

I don't think they get anywhere near 100jt ? Where did you hear that?
$100k a year in Indonesia for an Indonesian mid management level?

 

[snpark]

Anyway most working professionals in Jakarta with at least a few years of experience would be earning a lot more than 15jt (I would say a range of 20-60jt),

I don't think so quite that high. Even depending on the industry. I know a lot of Indonesian late 30's early 40's with degrees and good jobs in big companies for long time and none of them getting anywhere near 60jt.
A couple of exceptions like big shots at mcKinsey et al but even banking, telcoms, digital things, hotel management don't make that much

I think if you are 40 in Indonesia and make 40jt a month you would be very happy

But it does all depend on the company. But as a general consensus I don't believe they make that much 60jt a month as an average salary?

 

[pantaiema]

Thanks, interesting .. wages of 100 juta per month at higher management level. So, husband and wife working at that level have a monthly income of 200 juta. I know some of them (bank BNI), but I doubt that they have that kind of income, the way they behave (always "takut keluar uang").

Anyway, there are many definitions regarding classes. See link.

Aspiring Indonesia: Expanding the Middle Class

The middle class has been growing faster than other groups; there are now at least 52 million economically secure Indonesians, or one Indonesian in every five.

www.worldbank.org

It may not be the official salary, but if individuals are employed in the banking industry, they might hold influential roles in decision-making processes related to loan and credit approvals.

In other sectors such as customs officials, there is an extensive discussion on this topic in the forum. This person is not even the top rank officials working in Revenue and Customs.

Customs Officials in KPK Crosshairs

Let me guess. All "fake"

www.expatindo.org

 

[Helpful Herbert]

I didn't say middle management are making 100jt. But higher management definitely making at least that. In my job I get to see a lot of people's salary information and I would say most private sector people with 8+ years experience working in a business that is in some way related to finance or are professionally qualified (banks, consultancies, accounting etc.) are definitely getting over 20jt. Ten years ago it was different.

 

[Samoerai]

I didn't say middle management are making 100jt. But higher management definitely making at least that. In my job I get to see a lot of people's salary information and I would say most private sector people with 8+ years experience working in a business that is in some way related to finance or are professionally qualified (banks, consultancies, accounting etc.) are definitely getting over 20jt. Ten years ago it was different.

It would be interesting to know, how much salaries are paid in what kind of positions at what levels. Just global.

Couple of weeks ago, a man left his bank slip in the atm, and I was next. On the bank slip I saw he paid someone 60.000 rupiah and his bank total was 460 juta. I checked on the internet the names. He is a young lawyer (around mid 30 years) at a prestigious indonesian firm and he paid his secretary apparently.

 

[snpark]

Yes President Directors etc sure. The people whose names are on the websites. Yes $100k min. Probably $500k a year top top end. Plus bonuses
Ahok gets a few million US$ a year just for being on the board at Pertamina

So yes the top executives for sure 100jt a month

 

[snpark]

It would be interesting to know, how much salaries are paud in what kind of positions at what levels. Just global.

Couple of weeks ago, a man left is bank slip in the atm, and I was next. On the bank slip I saw he paid someone 60.000 rupiah and his bank total was 460 juta. I checked on the internet the names. He is a young lawyer (around mid 30 years) at a prestigious indonesian firm and he paid his secretary apparently.

He paid his secretatary? 60,000 rp? For what? A Starbucks? How do you know it was his secretary? From an ATM slip?

 

[Samoerai]

He paid his secretatary? 60,000 rp? For what? A Starbucks? How do you know it was his secretary? From an ATM slip?

Tracking down these persons was easy (but not that easy) .. there names were on the bankslips ..