FIFA U-20 World Cup 2023 Indonesia

[jstar]

I can not say exactly how common it is for girls to remove hijabs going to Singapore since like you, I am not on every flight. I can say that it has been my experience on the flights I have taken. It was my wife who first brought it to my attention.

I see it a lot on the QA/Etihad/Emirates flights. The ‘funny’ thing is that it is otw from Doha/Dubai/Abu Dhabi to Jakarta. Board with hijab, before landing go to the restroom, leave the toilet without headscarf and with makeup.

 

[Bob]

Evidently this thread went from the problems concerning the FIFA U20 tournament to why someone wears the hijab. Perhaps the threads need to be divided.

As for my 2 cents on the wearing of the hijab which has been discussed in this forum preciously, I would have ro side with those leaning towards social pressures. First off though I will say that I will happily defend any one wearing the hijab if it is their free will choice to wear one.

One needs to first look at when the hijab started being seen on the females. It was at the fall of Suharto when the hijab started coming into play. Suharto's fall brought the rise of the Islamic. Mass Organizarions. The ones led by the Arab/Indonesians are the ones that started the pressure on women wearing the hijab. It was these Arab inspired groups that went out and started a humiliation campaign for the wearing of the hijab. It also was intended to increase their power over the people. Fathers were told they were bad Muslims if they did not insist their daughters wore hijab. Husbands were told they were bad muslims if they did not demand their wives to wear hijab. People were told they were bad muslims if they did not insist their female friends and relatives wore hijab. It was all done through humiliation and at times physical violence.

Of course, that was the late 80s when it started. Today, there are a lot of females wearing hijab and for many reasins but no one should think for even a aecond that all are worn with free will. Young girls who never hijab suddenly doing so because their father insisted. Even when their mother did not except for occasions where it was respectful to something else. Students that were never hijab until other classmates teased and ridiculed them. Schools that will not allow entrance unless female students are hijab. Mosque that preach regularly that all females should wear hijab to be good Muslims. Work places were staff have to wear hijab as part of the uniform no matter the religion of the employee. Social, political, and family presures still exist.

One can simply be on a plane to Singapore to observe how many hijabs are removed before arrival. Somewhat the same for Bali. If these females were wearing hijab because of their piety they wouldn't be removing them.

My question has always been. Are the females of modern Indonesia better Muslims than those of 50 years ago? I think not. They are more Arab influanced though.

True, this could be in a separate thread or merged with an older one.
We did indeed see a lot more jilbabs post 98. Of course in those days the economy was a wreck, people were hungry, and in Maluku etc. Indonesians were slaughtering each other by the thousands. Groups took advantage of the chaos to spread their message, but also people (of any religion) tend to get more pious and othodox when times are tough. That happened here. And a lot of that was driven by women. They rule the world you know, starting with the households.
NU and Muhammadiya had extensive influence long before then. Or were you referring to clowns like FPI?
I've travelled between SIN and CGK, MES/KNO, PDG, etc. v.v. upwards of 250 times in the past 25 years. I've noticed women ditch their jilbabs before landing / Immigration in Singapore exactly twice. So that's not a common occurrence in my experience. It may have been that they had a date, had an employer that didn't want them to wear one, or that daddy wasn't looking.
As to whether Indonesian women are better Muslims than years ago I can't answer, but they are surely more orthodox.

 

[Bob]

Very good summary. I think the only ones denying the element of coercion are:
a) those who have not lived deeply in Indonesian society (ie within muslim families not in a bule apartment block) and just don't believe these things happen; or
b) have their own motivations to deny it (because they are muslim themselves and feel they would somehow insult their religion if they pointed out the obvious that most women do not wear it from free will).

If things continue on their current trajectory, I expect that within 30 years there will be no choice for anyone, and it will be compulsory like Iran or Afghanistan or Aceh.
I had an interesting conversation with my (jilbabed) cleaner a couple of years back. We had seen a woman wearing a full burka, and she said to me "must be a terrorist", which I thought was a strange comment from someone wearing a jilbab. Anyway, she said she had been forced to wear it her whole life by her family, to the extent that now she could not take it off even if she wanted to because going outside without one would make her feel naked (in the same way as I might feel walking down the street with no t-shirt).

Those are reasonable assumptions in the first paragraph but I can't say they hold true, at least for me.
I know Indonesia, especially Java, very well and for quite long, and I live among the Pribumi. I have also worked and socialized with many Muslim women in Singapore and Malaysia. My take from my conversations with them is that they wear the scarf for piety with an element of fashion, and that the impetus to wear it comes from them and is not imposed by others.

 

[snpark]

Don't forget a let of women wear a hijab in public for the perceived safety aspect element to dress "down" and not get harassed. Or under the helmet etc. I mean sexual harassment not religious.

Like on the bus or train. Then at the office, off it comes. And I don't mean hotel staff. I mean normal non uniform who keep a hijab merely as an item of clothing. Like a cardigan etc

 

[Bob]

I see it a lot on the QA/Etihad/Emirates flights. The ‘funny’ thing is that it is otw from Doha/Dubai/Abu Dhabi to Jakarta. Board with hijab, before landing go to the restroom, leave the toilet without headscarf and with makeup.

It seems that speaks for itself about freedom of choice in Indonesia.

 

[snpark]

I seen that with men flying Riyadh to Dubai. Wear kondora and carry small briefcase. Toilet before landing. Out they come in Jeans and Polo shirt lol.

 

[jstar]

Of course the escalation of violence in the area won’t help. And now there will be a retaliation again after the attack in Tel Aviv…

 

[Samoerai]

Don't forget a let of women wear a hijab in public for the perceived safety aspect element to dress "down" and not get harassed. Or under the helmet etc. I mean sexual harassment not religious.

Like on the bus or train. Then at the office, off it comes. And I don't mean hotel staff. I mean normal non uniform who keep a hijab merely as an item of clothing. Like a cardigan etc

Isn't that called 'code-switching', meaning adjust to the environment or culture you are in?

 

[snpark]

Isn't that called 'code-switching', meaning adjust to the environment or culture you are in?

No. That's Rugby union and rugby league.

 

[MamangDudul]

I also talked with quite some people (muslims) who said it's more like a fashion for many and kinda like a trend to seem like a decent muslim girl and woman (and I get it, innocence is one of the most attractive things for some people, no need to deny that). While this can surly indicate some shifts in society, I think it isn't nearly as bad as it seems to some outsiders. Of course there is always the chance for the most negative outcome of everything, but it rarely is as dramatic in the bigger picture. From my feeling I get that people in general got a bit less friendly and welcoming and curious but the majority of people didn't really change that much. Things come and go, have highs and lows. Let's see what the future brings.

 

[snpark]

Some Muslim men wear the Kopi thing some don't (the hat)

 

[Pak Tani]

I can not say exactly how common it is for girls to remove hijabs going to Singapore since like you, I am not on every flight. I can say that it has been my experience on the flights I have taken. It was my wife who first brought it to my attention.

I would have to guess that anything reported on as to how many females feel they wear hijab due to outside pressures would be in that same report you have saying there are no pressures. Care to reference that? Sorry, my housekeeper while never wearing a hijab while working does to and from, while meeting with school personnel, and when she thinks it is safer for her as a woman.

I get my information from ones I speak to directly. There are no better sources than those who hold their own feelings on things. If someone tells me they wear hijab because it is what they want, all the power to i them. If soneone tells me they wear a hijab because they want to because if they don't their "friends or classmates" will tease them then. Are they not socially forced into hijab?

Listen, I don't really care if someone wears a hijab or not. Doesn't affect me what so ever. I will not ever accept that many, not all, but many wear hijab due to outside pressures.

I know women who always wear a hijab, muslim women who never wear one and some who sometimes do. I don't know, at least that I am aware of, any woman who is forced to wear one. This doesn't mean that I don't think these women exist. They do.

However the claim made by HH in post #210:

A huge number of those wearing a hijab do so because of intense social pressure, threats from male relatives etc etc. We have all seen it, there is no point trying to pretend these ladies wear this hot uncomfortable clothing in a tropical climate through freedom of choice.

Concerning two 'random' women with islamic dress that they must be wearing it because of social pressure. Hereby insinuating that social pressure is the prevalent reason for women to wear clothes that cover their body and hair. I find such a claim preposterous and ignorant.
In hindsight, he must be trolling, right Herbert?

 

[snpark]

Let's not start on the ones who wear hijab and still smoke AND drink during Ramadan. Even daytime. And wine / beer.

 

[pantaiema]

Yes. Along with many Asian people. The point was that they choose to cover up, not that they are forced to like some were insuating. Nobody forces them to cover up like that and they follow the same patterns regardless of religon.

Not really if there is a law forcing people to do that.
"In the Indonesian Aceh province, Muslim women are required to wear the hijab and all women are required to do so regardless of religion in Iran and Afghanistan. In countries such as Saudi Arabia, the hijab is not required"

Islamic veiling practices by country - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Hawk256]

Not really if there is a law forcing people to do that.
"In the Indonesian Aceh province, Muslim women are required to wear the hijab and all women are required to do so regardless of religion in Iran and Afghanistan. In countries such as Saudi Arabia, the hijab is not required"

Islamic veiling practices by country - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I was referring the mass majoirty of Asian women in Asian countires that choose to cover themselves from head to toe even in the hottest weather and regardless of religon. Not really sure why it needs more explanation than that.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

I would say the trolling is being done by those saying they all wear it by choice.

 

[centurion]

Hereby insinuating that social pressure is the prevalent reason for women to wear clothes that cover their body and hair. I find such a claim preposterous and ignorant.
In hindsight, he must be trolling, right Herbert?

Some cases that I know are from peer pressure.

 

[snpark]

Required. Its not a law
Not "mandatory" compulsory etc

 

[jstar]

Iran

Required. Its not a law

Remember the 2018 flight attendant hijab requirement by Aceh? I’m quite sure according to the local Shari'ah law it is mandatory (for Muslim women) in Aceh.…

 

[jstar]

Of course the escalation of violence in the area won’t help. And now there will be a retaliation again after the attack in Tel Aviv…

As of today, additional battalions of border police are deployed in city centers. Units are already patrolling the areas which have a mixed population of Jews and Arabs.

There were rockets fired at Israel from the Palestinian Gaza Strip and Lebanon, leading to Israeli bombings in retaliation. These attacks were obviously a Palestinian response to Israeli raids on the al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem. And then the Tel Aviv assault on Friday night of course.

Seven tourists from Italy and Great Britain were injured in the assault with a car in Tel Aviv. The Palestinian Hamas, which controls Gaza, said the attack was a "natural and legitimate response to Israel's aggression at the al-Aqsa mosque”.

This is all taking place at a very convenient moment for certain groups.