FIFA U-20 World Cup 2023 Indonesia

[Helpful Herbert]

If you see the lady players from Egypt for instance …

Do we have to?
By the way their clothes make no sense at all. Egyptian squash players all wear very short skirts. I think these are just trying to make a political point.

 

[pantaiema]

Now where did I say Indonesia would have and produce he next greatest football/soccer player? The answer no where. I said the U20 WC might have the next one, but I never said which country.


You keep missing the point and this is not the first time.

Who wrote this.

"It is about the Bali governor who ran his mouth about Israel in the U20 World Cup.

Imagine if you could have seen a player that turned out to be the next Pele, Maradona, Cristinao Ronaldo, Messi, Dennis Bergkamp, etc..., but you didn't because of a politician taking away that enjoyment".

This thread is about FIFA U-20 World Cup 2023 INDONESIA and the discussion extend to ANOC World Beach Game which will also be held in Bali, and what Indonesian government has been missing by not hosting those international events.

Why would anyone want to talk about the benefits / drawbacks of hosting such an international event in Indonesian thread referring to superstars in football if it is nothing to do with inspiring the new generation of Indonesian footballer that could play in the International premier leagues like the football players from Japan, Korea?? So this is not the first time you are talking about insensible and irrelevant things. Aspiration and Reality are entirely two different things.

How much money has been spent for football in Indonesia. How many years they have been spoilt with funding and facility in comparison to other sports. They were even beaten in the SEA games semi-final by Thailand with the population a quarter of Indonesian population. Let a alone if compared with Vietnam.

The well known theory of Comparative advantage from David Ricardo focus on what you are good at the lowest opportunity costs. The benefit of such international event is more to do with economic, tourism benefits and certainly international exposure rather than creating a new generation of players who are very good in football or Beach sports. It is highly unlike to ever happen in Indonesia until at least a few generations to come.

 

[Bob]

Well let's wait for the world badminton championship

Or the next Olympics when Indonesia is banned still because of sanctions

Do we have to?
By the way their clothes make no sense at all. Egyptian squash players all wear very short skirts. I think these are just trying to make a political point.

As long as it's their choice, why complain about it?

 

[ChrisTex]

Who wrote this.

"It is about the Bali governor who ran his mouth about Israel in the U20 World Cup.

Imagine if you could have seen a player that turned out to be the next Pele, Maradona, Cristinao Ronaldo, Messi, Dennis Bergkamp, etc..., but you didn't because of a politician taking away that enjoyment".

This thread is about FIFA U-20 World Cup 2023 INDONESIA and the discussion extend to ANOC World Beach Game which will also be held in Bali, and what Indonesian government has been missing by not hosting those international events.

Why would anyone want to talk about the benefits / drawbacks of hosting such an international event in Indonesian thread referring to superstars in football if it is nothing to do with inspiring the new generation of Indonesian footballer that could play in the International premier leagues like the football players from Japan, Korea?? So this is not the first time you are talking about insensible and irrelevant things. Aspiration and Reality are entirely two different things.

How much money has been spent for football in Indonesia. How many years they have been spoilt with funding and facility in comparison to other sports. They were even beaten in the SEA games semi-final by Thailand with the population a quarter of Indonesian population. Let a alone if compared with Vietnam.

The well known theory of Comparative advantage from David Ricardo focus on what you are good at the lowest opportunity costs. The benefit of such international event is more to do with economic, tourism benefits and certainly international exposure rather than creating a new generation of players who are very good in football or Beach sports. It is highly unlike to ever happen in Indonesia until at least a few generations to come.

Way to continue to miss the point and want to move the goal post to fit your argument.

Was Indonesia the only team in the U20 WC and was I referring to only them?? No. Off the top of my head, you could have seen the next big time players from England, France, Italy and Brazil. What countries were the players I had listed from?

Could some one from one of the other countries become a well know player? Yes! From Africa, I think of Samuel Eto(sp), Emmanual Eboue(that is for you snpark), Kanu, Drogbar, and Michael Essien who are all from Africa to name a few players. Japan and South Korea have had a number of players as well become well known in Europe playing in the English Prem, Siera A, German league, and Scottish league. Could Indonesia have a player join those ranks? Maybe, but we will never know. This goes back to my post on Indonesia failing athletes with development.(I could go into details just in terms of rugby) Indonesia football is now set back years and those who had Indonesian heritage probably regret saying they would play for Indonesia and if they know anyone in the same catagory, are probably going to discourage them from playing for Indonesia.

 

[jstar]

As long as it's their choice, why complain about it?

Well, as long as there is no referendum it’s a bit presumptuous to state it’s “their choice”. And esp. in this case it is rather obvious that some fanatics and hardliners get it their way. Dominance of a minority.

 

[pantaiema]

Way to continue to miss the point and want to move the goal post to fit your argument.

Was Indonesia the only team in the U20 WC and was I referring to only them?? No. Off the top of my head, you could have seen the next big time players from England, France, Italy and Brazil. What countries were the players I had listed from?

Could some one from one of the other countries become a well know player? Yes! From Africa, I think of Samuel Eto(sp), Emmanual Eboue(that is for you snpark), Kanu, Drogbar, and Michael Essien who are all from Africa to name a few players. Japan and South Korea have had a number of players as well become well known in Europe playing in the English Prem, Siera A, German league, and Scottish league. Could Indonesia have a player join those ranks? Maybe, but we will never know. This goes back to my post on Indonesia failing athletes with development.(I could go into details just in terms of rugby) Indonesia football is now set back years and those who had Indonesian heritage probably regret saying they would play for Indonesia and if they know anyone in the same catagory, are probably going to discourage them from playing for Indonesia.

This thread is about FIFA U-20 World Cup 2023 Indonesia and later developed to ANOC World Beach Game to be hosted in Bali and decision from Indonesian government and Bali governor to refuse to host Israel Resulting Indonesia being Striped off hosting right by FIFA. The discussion developed to what Indonesian government has been missing after their hosting right been refused.

Sensible government will only want to host an international event for the benefit of their own countries and citizens.

Inspiring a new generation of Indonesian football players has nothing to do with Pele, Maradona, Cristinao Ronaldo, Messi, Dennis Bergkamp, etc...,and so are the players you have listed in the later post as Indonesian young generation of football players will never become a football superstar playing in the international league, at least for a few generation to come.

You keep raising irrelevant and insensible point. Why would Indonesian people or government want to event care about young generation of footballers of other nations to become international players to play in the international league??

And as a reminder Who wrote this. ?
"It is about the Bali governor who ran his mouth about Israel in the U20 World Cup.

Imagine if you could have seen a player that turned out to be the next Pele, Maradona, Cristinao Ronaldo, Messi, Dennis Bergkamp, etc..., but you didn't because of a politician taking away that enjoyment".

 

[snpark]

And you turned it into leching at girls in bikinis playing beach volleyball

 

[Pak Tani]

Well, as long as there is no referendum it’s a bit presumptuous to state it’s “their choice”. And esp. in this case it is rather obvious that some fanatics and hardliners get it their way. Dominance of a minority.

If you look at the last pic of post #199 you can see the egyptian team: Doaa Elghobashy is wearing a hijab and Nada Meawad isn't. Not sure if we need a referendum to find out if Doaa is being oppressed.
Some muslim women choose to wear a hijab. Please let them.

 

[Bob]

Well, as long as there is no referendum it’s a bit presumptuous to state it’s “their choice”. And esp. in this case it is rather obvious that some fanatics and hardliners get it their way. Dominance of a minority.

I didn't say it was clearly their choice; that was a conditional statement. On the other hand, how is it obvious that fanatics got their way? Wearing the long uniforms may have been the team's decision.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Some muslim women choose to wear a hijab. Please let them.

A huge number of those wearing a hijab do so because of intense social pressure, threats from male relatives etc etc. We have all seen it, there is no point trying to pretend these ladies wear this hot uncomfortable clothing in a tropical climate through freedom of choice.

 

[jstar]

If you look at the last pic of post #199 you can see the egyptian team: Doaa Elghobashy is wearing a hijab and Nada Meawad isn't. Not sure if we need a referendum to find out if Doaa is being oppressed.
Some muslim women choose to wear a hijab. Please let them.

I didn't say it was clearly their choice; that was a conditional statement. On the other hand, how is it obvious that fanatics got their way? Wearing the long uniforms may have been the team's decision.

Eh, we are talking about organizing the tournament and having Israeli athletes play in Indonesia, right?

I never made a statement about forcing the hijab and a certain dress code. You apply an ignoratio elenchi; it’s a bit easy to take something out of context and focus on that one thing.

So if you return to the topic; it is very easy to determine in the timeline how the fanatics got (or will get) what they wanted. It all started with some demonstrations of the usual suspects, even if their official mouthpiece is dismantled but still with the arrogance to refer to previous demonstrations*, with their demand ban the Israeli’s or cancel the games.

And on a certain moment it was not about Palestine (occupation and suppression) or colonialism** anymore, but -simplifying as so often- between Islam and its perceived enemies….

And that’s something you see a lot here. Everyone with a different or nuanced opinion is being silenced with simplistic slogans and “you’re not a good Muslim” arguments. Which creates a lot of fear (see also Banana’s remark on the Fb incident).

And then you have a dominance of the minority. Without rebuttal or pushback.
.


* 203 vs 212:

Massa FPI, Alumni 212, dan GNPF Gelar Aksi 203 Tolak Timnas Israel Datang ke Indonesia

Ratusan massa menggelar demo di Patung Kuda, Jakarta Pusat menolak kedatangan Timnas Israel ke Indonesia. Massa terdiri dari FPI hingga alumni 212.

metro.tempo.co

** if the argument is that a country’s colonialism violates the Indonesian constitution, they should also refuse visitors from other countries, Russia being a recent example

 

[ChrisTex]

This thread is about FIFA U-20 World Cup 2023 Indonesia and later developed to ANOC World Beach Game to be hosted in Bali and decision from Indonesian government and Bali governor to refuse to host Israel Resulting Indonesia being Striped off hosting right by FIFA. The discussion developed to what Indonesian government has been missing after their hosting right been refused.
before you derailed everything and keep taking
Sensible government will only want to host an international event for the benefit of their own countries and citizens.

Inspiring a new generation of Indonesian football players has nothing to do with Pele, Maradona, Cristinao Ronaldo, Messi, Dennis Bergkamp, etc...,and so are the players you have listed in the later post as Indonesian young generation of football players will never become a football superstar playing in the international league, at least for a few generation to come.

You keep raising irrelevant and insensible point. Why would Indonesian people or government want to event care about young generation of footballers of other nations to become international players to play in the international league??

And as a reminder Who wrote this. ?
"It is about the Bali governor who ran his mouth about Israel in the U20 World Cup.

Imagine if you could have seen a player that turned out to be the next Pele, Maradona, Cristinao Ronaldo, Messi, Dennis Bergkamp, etc..., but you didn't because of a politician taking away that enjoyment".

In terms of the Bali governor, he was not the one who made the bid for the U20 WC, but he surly wanted to be a host city until about a month ago.

Clearly you are being selective with your reading as you keep missing the point. Here is a question for you. Have you ever been inspired? If you have been inspired, what are the chances you will ever be like that person or thing that has inspired you?


This is what I had said before you decided to miss the point. You know nothing Jon Snow.

 

[Pak Tani]

I never made a statement about forcing the hijab and a certain dress code. You apply an ignoratio elenchi; it’s a bit easy to take something out of context and focus on that one thing.

Ah, that explains you using the word referendum. In my defenso, your reply was on Bob's post #203 about freedom of wearing islamic clothing, so that was a bit confusing.

And on a certain moment it was not about Palestine (occupation and suppression) or colonialism** anymore, but -simplifying as so often- between Islam and its perceived enemies….
...
Everyone with a different or nuanced opinion is being silenced with simplistic slogans and “you’re not a good Muslim” arguments.

And then you have a dominance of the minority. Without rebuttal or pushback.

Mr. Koster, the governor of Bali, is obviously not afraid of being called a bad muslim. What surprises me is that he could have easily used the argument that he fears islamic terrorist attacks on the Israeli team and its supporters. Many people would have understood this and it could be a valid reason to deny the Israelis entry into the tournament. Instead he said:

“I still reject the appearance of Israel in Bali, including in the upcoming ANOC World Beach Games,” he said yesterday, arguing that he was merely basing his stance on Indonesia’s constitution and foreign policy.

He could have shifted the blame to fear of attacks, yet he didn't. Maybe he really means it?

** if the argument is that a country’s colonialism violates the Indonesian constitution, they should also refuse visitors from other countries, Russia being a recent example

I disagree with you here. It is a competition between nations, athletes representing their countries. That is not the same as a family spending holiday time.

InB4: I am not against Israeli athletes competing on Indonesian soil

 

[Pak Tani]

I think these are just trying to make a political point.

..there is no point trying to pretend these ladies wear this hot uncomfortable clothing in a tropical climate through freedom of choice.

They are trying to make a political point or they are being forced to wear it, now which one is it?

By the way their clothes make no sense at all. Egyptian squash players all wear very short skirts.

So Egyptian squash players are, unlike beach volley players, not being forced to wear islamic dress? What is your reasoning??

 

[jstar]

Well, of course we can not see in governor’s Koster’s head so we don’t really know what he thinks.

But what is striking, is that he as member of PDI, seems to speak more for his party than for his province. And that is easily explained.

Don’t forget it is Megawati’s party. The Indonesian Iron Lady. And her father*, bapak proklamator, who is still (or again) a reference in that party, had a very strong stance on Israel and the local conflict there. It was one of his hobby horses.

* There‘s quite some pride in Bali about the fact that Soekarno’s mother was Ida Ayu Nyoman Rai; she was a Hindu of the Brahmin caste from Bali.

.

 

[Bob]

A huge number of those wearing a hijab do so because of intense social pressure, threats from male relatives etc etc. We have all seen it, there is no point trying to pretend these ladies wear this hot uncomfortable clothing in a tropical climate through freedom of choice.

How many women that wear the hijab / jilbab / tudung have you discussed that with? I know many, from different countries, and per their comments they wear it of their free will.
Fashion is a consideration, as is piety, if that's what you mean by societal pressure.

 

[Bob]

Eh, we are talking about organizing the tournament and having Israeli athletes play in Indonesia, right?

I never made a statement about forcing the hijab and a certain dress code. You apply an ignoratio elenchi; it’s a bit easy to take something out of context and focus on that one thing.

So if you return to the topic; it is very easy to determine in the timeline how the fanatics got (or will get) what they wanted. It all started with some demonstrations of the usual suspects, even if their official mouthpiece is dismantled but still with the arrogance to refer to previous demonstrations*, with their demand ban the Israeli’s or cancel the games.

And on a certain moment it was not about Palestine (occupation and suppression) or colonialism** anymore, but -simplifying as so often- between Islam and its perceived enemies….

And that’s something you see a lot here. Everyone with a different or nuanced opinion is being silenced with simplistic slogans and “you’re not a good Muslim” arguments. Which creates a lot of fear (see also Banana’s remark on the Fb incident).

And then you have a dominance of the minority. Without rebuttal or pushback.
.


* 203 vs 212:

Massa FPI, Alumni 212, dan GNPF Gelar Aksi 203 Tolak Timnas Israel Datang ke Indonesia

Ratusan massa menggelar demo di Patung Kuda, Jakarta Pusat menolak kedatangan Timnas Israel ke Indonesia. Massa terdiri dari FPI hingga alumni 212.

metro.tempo.co

** if the argument is that a country’s colonialism violates the Indonesian constitution, they should also refuse visitors from other countries, Russia being a recent example

Maybe you got your posts mixed. Your reply to my comment on the Egyptian beach VB team saying 'if the women want to wear what they do then why complain' was "Well, as long as there is no referendum it’s a bit presumptuous to state it’s “their choice”. And esp. in this case it is rather obvious that some fanatics and hardliners get it their way. Dominance of a minority." So it sure looks you were saying the dress code may well be forced on the Egyptian beach VB team through the efforts of hardliners.

 

[pantaiema]

In terms of the Bali governor, he was not the one who made the bid for the U20 WC, but he surly wanted to be a host city until about a month ago.

Clearly you are being selective with your reading as you keep missing the point. Here is a question for you. Have you ever been inspired? If you have been inspired, what are the chances you will ever be like that person or thing that has inspired you?

This is what I had said before you decided to miss the point. You know nothing Jon Snow.

As I mention it multiple times Inspiration and reality are too different things.
When money get involved, any sensible people will see the probability and chance to ever happen in life before they even consider throwing a single penny.

A lot of traders In Indonesia are inspired to become the smart traders, the next generation of Jim Simmons, George Soros, Paul Tudor Jones, Richard Dennis etc and see how it has ended up. Some new young generation inspired by Marilyn Monroe (MM), so they copy the appearance of MM to go for full pledge such as colouring their hairs, becoming bottled blond, get hair cut like MM but the result look odds, horrible as some of the inspirers have brown, dark skin colour (not pale) and their eye colour are not blue.
Why not try to become such as Priyanka Chopra, Anushka Sharma, Ananya Pandey or Naomi Campbell which are equally attractive but in different style.

Unless there is solid evidence that you could acquire that skills and be successful within a reasonable time scale any sensible people will not throw a penny, making it as a basis for the main factor in decision making just because they get inspired by other people. Let alone if it is public public money, funding from the government ??

I doubt many sensible people will ever think the benefit of hosting FIFA U-20 World Cup 2023, ANOC World Beach Game to be hosted in Bali / Indonesia is to see the next generation of Indonesian footballers, Beach sport athletes who could bring Indonesia to the next level in the International arena having seen a lot of evidence in the past that even in SEA games they do not even see any sign of achievement. The benefit of such international event is more to do with economic, tourism benefits and certainly international exposure rather than making a new generation of players, beach / sport athletes who are very good in football or Beach sports just because they are inspired by Pele, Maradona, Cristinao Ronaldo, Messi, Dennis Bergkamp, etc... . What is the chance the next generation of Indonesian footballer to turn to be those superstars ?

The well known theory of Comparative advantage from David Ricardo focus on what you are good at and for the lowest opportunity costs. For Indonesia putting more money, further investing in football, beach sport are a waste of money. There are a better way of using limited resources with a better result.

You keep missing the point, being insensible and irrational, that Inspiration and reality are too different things.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

In the meantime Iranian women are literally dying for the right to take off their hijabs. But of course I forgot, they wear them by choice

 

[pantaiema]

And you turned it into leching at girls in bikinis playing beach volleyball

Well, there is a reference to ANOC World Beach Game to be hosted in Bali. If that event did go ahead in Bali you will be seeing a lot of designer thongs, bikinis will be displayed, aren't they.
You will see quite similar leggy athletes, flat firm tummy ready to smash the ball, that I & Jstar posted before will be playing in Bali. For some people it is one of the attraction. It is a win win situation the female athletes want to get attract attention, they get attention.