FIFA U-20 World Cup 2023 Indonesia

[scouser59]

Well, there is a reference to ANOC World Beach Game to be hosted in Bali. If that event did go ahead in Bali you will be seeing a lot of designer thongs, bikinis will be displayed, aren't they.
You will see quite similar leggy athletes, flat firm tummy ready to smash the ball, that I & Jstar posted before will be playing in Bali. For some people it is one of the attraction. It is a win win situation the female athletes want to get attract attention, they get attention.

Im finding some elements of this thread "pervy" , no doubt making some of our members uncomfortable .

 

[Hawk256]

A huge number of those wearing a hijab do so because of intense social pressure, threats from male relatives etc etc. We have all seen it, there is no point trying to pretend these ladies wear this hot uncomfortable clothing in a tropical climate through freedom of choice.

We have not all seen it. My personal experience is far from that. Not only in Muslim countries but all over Asia. Most women don't want the sun touching their skin.

 

[jstar]

We have not all seen it. My personal experience is far from that. Not only in Muslim countries but all over Asia. Most women don't want the sun touching their skin.

I don’t think we heard this one yet on possible arguments why they would wear a hijab or burka.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

We have not all seen it. My personal experience is far from that. Not only in Muslim countries but all over Asia. Most women don't want the sun touching their skin.

Well that's the first time I have ever heard that as a reason cover your hair so the sun doesn't touch your skin

 

[Bob]

In the meantime Iranian women are literally dying for the right to take off their hijabs. But of course I forgot, they wear them by choice

Who said Iran has free choice? It's clear that the government tries to force a dress code on women there.

 

[ChrisTex]

As I mention it multiple times Inspiration and reality are too different things.
When money get involved, any sensible people will see the probability and chance to ever happen in life before they even consider throwing a single penny.

A lot of traders In Indonesia are inspired to become the smart traders, the next generation of Jim Simmons, George Soros, Paul Tudor Jones, Richard Dennis etc and see how it has ended up. Some new young generation inspired by Marilyn Monroe (MM), so they copy the appearance of MM to go for full pledge such as colouring their hairs, becoming bottled blond, get hair cut like MM but the result look odds, horrible as some of the inspirers have brown, dark skin colour (not pale) and their eye colour are not blue.
Why not try to become such as Priyanka Chopra, Anushka Sharma, Ananya Pandey or Naomi Campbell which are equally attractive but in different style.

Unless there is solid evidence that you could acquire that skills and be successful within a reasonable time scale any sensible people will not throw a penny, making it as a basis for the main factor in decision making just because they get inspired by other people. Let alone if it is public public money, funding from the government ??

I doubt many sensible people will ever think the benefit of hosting FIFA U-20 World Cup 2023, ANOC World Beach Game to be hosted in Bali / Indonesia is to see the next generation of Indonesian footballers, Beach sport athletes who could bring Indonesia to the next level in the International arena having seen a lot of evidence in the past that even in SEA games they do not even see any sign of achievement. The benefit of such international event is more to do with economic, tourism benefits and certainly international exposure rather than making a new generation of players, beach / sport athletes who are very good in football or Beach sports just because they are inspired by Pele, Maradona, Cristinao Ronaldo, Messi, Dennis Bergkamp, etc... . What is the chance the next generation of Indonesian footballer to turn to be those superstars ?

The well known theory of Comparative advantage from David Ricardo focus on what you are good at and for the lowest opportunity costs. For Indonesia putting more money, further investing in football, beach sport are a waste of money. There are a better way of using limited resources with a better result.

You keep missing the point, being insensible and irrational, that Inspiration and reality are too different things.

 

[Hawk256]

I don’t think we heard this one yet on possible arguments why they would wear a hijab or burka.

Wasn't talking necessarily about a hijab or burka but women wearing long pants, a jacket and something covering their head during the hottest weather. Stopping 100 meters berfore the intersection on a motorbike to stay out of the sun. Seen far less Asian women showing any skin.

 

[pantaiema]

Those people who are smart, Intelligent could not suddenly turn to become dumb idiots, just because what this guy in the video is saying or visa versa.

Similarly those athletes, sport branch who have not shown talents, achievements even in the very regional event despite so much money, time have been spent will not turn to become a football superstar like Pele, Maradona, Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi, Dennis Bergkamp, etc, just because inspired by U-20 World Cup 2023 or just because someone in this thread keep arguing insensibly and irrationally. I doubt Indonesian government reason to accept hosting those international event is mainly based on that ill judged ground. The benefits of such international event is more to do with economic, tourism benefits and certainly international exposure.

The well known theory of Comparative advantage from David Ricardo focus on what you are good at the lowest opportunity costs has been used in many sectors where there are only limited resources available such as economics, funding in sport.

Indonesia has 21 football stadiums, by far the largest number of stadiums in SE Asia; Jakarta International Stadium is one of the largest footbal stadium in SE Asia; now see the achievement sofar? Is is not better money to be diverted to what Indonesia is good at such Badminton, Archery, Karate, weigh lifting Rock Climbing, etc.

 

[ChrisTex]

 

[jstar]

Wasn't talking necessarily about a hijab or burka but women wearing long pants, a jacket and something covering their head during the hottest weather. Stopping 100 meters berfore the intersection on a motorbike to stay out of the sun. Seen far less Asian women showing any skin.

You just described any Indonesian person, man or woman, on a motorbike. Besides a winter jacket, many even wear gloves.

Not only against the sun but also to avoid ‘masuk angin’.

 

[Hawk256]

You just described any Indonesian person, man or woman, on a motorbike. Besides a winter jacket, many even wear gloves.

Not only against the sun but also to avoid ‘masuk angin’.

Yes. Along with many Asian people. The point was that they choose to cover up, not that they are forced to like some were insuating. Nobody forces them to cover up like that and they follow the same patterns regardless of religon.

 

[fastpitch17]

Evidently this thread went from the problems concerning the FIFA U20 tournament to why someone wears the hijab. Perhaps the threads need to be divided.

As for my 2 cents on the wearing of the hijab which has been discussed in this forum preciously, I would have ro side with those leaning towards social pressures. First off though I will say that I will happily defend any one wearing the hijab if it is their free will choice to wear one.

One needs to first look at when the hijab started being seen on the females. It was at the fall of Suharto when the hijab started coming into play. Suharto's fall brought the rise of the Islamic. Mass Organizarions. The ones led by the Arab/Indonesians are the ones that started the pressure on women wearing the hijab. It was these Arab inspired groups that went out and started a humiliation campaign for the wearing of the hijab. It also was intended to increase their power over the people. Fathers were told they were bad Muslims if they did not insist their daughters wore hijab. Husbands were told they were bad muslims if they did not demand their wives to wear hijab. People were told they were bad muslims if they did not insist their female friends and relatives wore hijab. It was all done through humiliation and at times physical violence.

Of course, that was the late 80s when it started. Today, there are a lot of females wearing hijab and for many reasins but no one should think for even a aecond that all are worn with free will. Young girls who never hijab suddenly doing so because their father insisted. Even when their mother did not except for occasions where it was respectful to something else. Students that were never hijab until other classmates teased and ridiculed them. Schools that will not allow entrance unless female students are hijab. Mosque that preach regularly that all females should wear hijab to be good Muslims. Work places were staff have to wear hijab as part of the uniform no matter the religion of the employee. Social, political, and family presures still exist.

One can simply be on a plane to Singapore to observe how many hijabs are removed before arrival. Somewhat the same for Bali. If these females were wearing hijab because of their piety they wouldn't be removing them.

My question has always been. Are the females of modern Indonesia better Muslims than those of 50 years ago? I think not. They are more Arab influanced though.

 

[Samoerai]

Well, of course we can not see in governor’s Koster’s head so we don’t really know what he thinks.

But what is striking, is that he as member of PDI, seems to speak more for his party than for his province. And that is easily explained.

Don’t forget it is Megawati’s party. The Indonesian Iron Lady. And her father*, bapak proklamator, who is still (or again) a reference in that party, had a very strong stance on Israel and the local conflict there. It was one of his hobby horses.

* There‘s quite some pride in Bali about the fact that Soekarno’s mother was Ida Ayu Nyoman Rai; she was a Hindu of the Brahmin caste from Bali.

.

Agree, it is what I said earlier .. 'partai politics'. Megatwati cum suis let Koster say what they don't want to say in public. So, the the escape goat is the governor of Bali. Pintar.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Agree, it is what I said earlier .. 'partai politics'. Megatwati cum suis let Koster say what they don't want to say in public. So, the the escape goat is the governor of Bali. Pintar.

escape goat

 

[Helpful Herbert]

One can simply be on a plane to Singapore to observe how many hijabs are removed before arrival. Somewhat the same for Bali. If these females were wearing hijab because of their piety they wouldn't be removing them.

My question has always been. Are the females of modern Indonesia better Muslims than those of 50 years ago? I think not. They are more Arab influanced though.

Very good summary. I think the only ones denying the element of coercion are:
a) those who have not lived deeply in Indonesian society (ie within muslim families not in a bule apartment block) and just don't believe these things happen; or
b) have their own motivations to deny it (because they are muslim themselves and feel they would somehow insult their religion if they pointed out the obvious that most women do not wear it from free will).

If things continue on their current trajectory, I expect that within 30 years there will be no choice for anyone, and it will be compulsory like Iran or Afghanistan or Aceh.
I had an interesting conversation with my (jilbabed) cleaner a couple of years back. We had seen a woman wearing a full burka, and she said to me "must be a terrorist", which I thought was a strange comment from someone wearing a jilbab. Anyway, she said she had been forced to wear it her whole life by her family, to the extent that now she could not take it off even if she wanted to because going outside without one would make her feel naked (in the same way as I might feel walking down the street with no t-shirt).

 

[snpark]

Like a man wearing a tie in his office

 

[Pak Tani]

One can simply be on a plane to Singapore to observe how many hijabs are removed before arrival. Somewhat the same for Bali. If these females were wearing hijab because of their piety they wouldn't be removing them.

You make it seem that it is a common thing for women to take off their hijab when they go abroad (and put them back on when they come back). I have never seen this, on numerous trips to Singapore or elsewhere. Maybe it's just me, or perhaps you are just grossly exaggerating.

As for my 2 cents on the wearing of the hijab which has been discussed in this forum preciously, I would have ro side with those leaning towards social pressures

We have indeed discussed this before and it looks like we meet again.
If you really believe that many women in Indonesia are being coerced into wearing a jilbab; that they are wearing it against their will, I assume you believe that not merely based on some anecdotal evidence of your cleaner (N = 1) but on actual facts. Do you have any data on how many Indonesian women are wearing a jilbab against their will?

 

[Samoerai]

Those people who are smart, Intelligent could not suddenly turn to become dumb idiots, just because what this guy in the video is saying or visa versa.

Similarly those athletes, sport branch who have not shown talents, achievements even in the very regional event despite so much money, time have been spent will not turn to become a football superstar like Pele, Maradona, Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi, Dennis Bergkamp, etc, just because inspired by U-20 World Cup 2023 or just because someone in this thread keep arguing insensibly and irrationally. I doubt Indonesian government reason to accept hosting those international event is mainly based on that ill judged ground. The benefits of such international event is more to do with economic, tourism benefits and certainly international exposure.

The well known theory of Comparative advantage from David Ricardo focus on what you are good at the lowest opportunity costs has been used in many sectors where there are only limited resources available such as economics, funding in sport.

Indonesia has 21 football stadiums, by far the largest number of stadiums in SE Asia; Jakarta International Stadium is one of the largest footbal stadium in SE Asia; now see the achievement sofar? Is is not better money to be diverted to what Indonesia is good at such Badminton, Archery, Karate, weigh lifting Rock Climbing, etc.

Waist of energy and time for making 'sports visa' available for athletes and supporters.

Indonesia to Launch Sports Visa to Boost Sports Tourism in 2023

Throughout 2023, Indonesia will host various world-class sports tournaments, including MotoGP and the U-20 FIFA World Cup. This momentum has the potential to a

indonesiaexpat.id

 

[MamangDudul]

While you are salivating over the T&A its worth remembering those athletes are forced to wear the skimpy outfits and I'm sure many of them would prefer to wear more comfortable shorts (longer than the mandated 10cm) and less revealing tops. The men are allowed to wear shorts and tank tops.

Iam honestly not so sure about that. On top of all it's very fitting outfit for the beach-sports. Or you wanna tell me that most of the same women in these sports, with bodys like this, wouldn't wear a bikini to the beach and showing their body?
I feel like in the west it's a common misconception that freedom is only about running around half naked (which is totally ok of course). My point is, if most of them women really had a problem with the clothes then they would wear different things. Especially on an international level everyone from Women, Men to Transsexuals and their pets claiming their rights. So yeah, I think it just is what it is and most of them don't have a problem with it

 

[fastpitch17]

You make it seem that it is a common thing for women to take off their hijab when they go abroad (and put them back on when they come back). I have never seen this, on numerous trips to Singapore or elsewhere. Maybe it's just me, or perhaps you are just grossly exaggerating.



We have indeed discussed this before and it looks like we meet again.
If you really believe that many women in Indonesia are being coerced into wearing a jilbab; that they are wearing it against their will, I assume you believe that not merely based on some anecdotal evidence of your cleaner (N = 1) but on actual facts. Do you have any data on how many Indonesian women are wearing a jilbab against their will?

I can not say exactly how common it is for girls to remove hijabs going to Singapore since like you, I am not on every flight. I can say that it has been my experience on the flights I have taken. It was my wife who first brought it to my attention.

I would have to guess that anything reported on as to how many females feel they wear hijab due to outside pressures would be in that same report you have saying there are no pressures. Care to reference that? Sorry, my housekeeper while never wearing a hijab while working does to and from, while meeting with school personnel, and when she thinks it is safer for her as a woman.

I get my information from ones I speak to directly. There are no better sources than those who hold their own feelings on things. If someone tells me they wear hijab because it is what they want, all the power to i them. If soneone tells me they wear a hijab because they want to because if they don't their "friends or classmates" will tease them then. Are they not socially forced into hijab?

Listen, I don't really care if someone wears a hijab or not. Doesn't affect me what so ever. I will not ever accept that many, not all, but many wear hijab due to outside pressures.