The Uyghur and China discussion thread

[R Cameron]

The problem is not winning or losing. The problem is that your opinions have no basis in reality.

I made the comparison to Flat Earth-ers, and I think it's apt. If he had done a more subtle and skillful job with his ideas I would share your concern about this site becoming a breeding ground for misinformation and hoaxes. However, because of his entire approach of absolute certainty, zero sources, and blaming it all on a big, bad boogey-man (CIA) that controls the world media, I think it's safe to just let the crazy exist in isolation, he's not convincing anyone, no need to argue or refute claims that have no substance.

 

[ChrisTex]

OK, so what happened in Myanmar?

Listen to what Philippine Foreign Affairs Secretary has to say, "the Myanmar problem is British legacy".

Ah the 'they are after the oil and gas and don't trust whitie' argument for 99.99% of the video. He very briefly mentioned religion, but that does not answer the question I asked you. I did not ask you about what is in the news now, but the rogyha(sp) that was all over the news in Indonesia, world, and people at one point were on the streets in Jakarta trying to raise money for them. Now The Jakarta Post and most of Indonesia has gone silent. Is the CIA involved with TJP too? I also brought up Yemen as practically no one heard anything or said anything about that.

Now going back to China, they have gone after Christians for years so it is not surprising they have found another religion to go after. The only difference is people are reporting and speaking up on social media and the media(agree with them or not) are bringing it up now.

 

[Dave70]

Ah the 'they are after the oil and gas and don't trust whitie' argument for 99.99% of the video. He very briefly mentioned religion, but that does not answer the question I asked you. I did not ask you about what is in the news now, but the rogyha(sp) that was all over the news in Indonesia, world, and people at one point were on the streets in Jakarta trying to raise money for them. Now The Jakarta Post and most of Indonesia has gone silent. Is the CIA involved with TJP too? I also brought up Yemen as practically no one heard anything or said anything about that.

Now going back to China, they have gone after Christians for years so it is not surprising they have found another religion to go after. The only difference is people are reporting and speaking up on social media and the media(agree with them or not) are bringing it up now.

Sorry, ChrisTex. I do not know much about Myanmar.

 

[Dave70]

Part 4: Continuation from post #70

I urge people who believe in the MSM fake news about the Xinjiang “genocide" and “forced labor" to think, use their common sense and logic.

There are more than 10 million Uyghurs in Xinjiang. Genocide will definitely cause a massive refugee movement and yet there is no such thing going on in Xinjiang.

Picking cotton is a mechanized process, China is rich enough to buy those machines. On the other hand, forced labor is politically damaging and carries an enormous reputational cost. It is inconceivable that the Chinese government would embark on such an irrational policy.

British expat Lee Barrett on forced labor in his video below.


There is no Uyghur genocide. Let me defend that statement.

Uyghurs are an integral part of China, there are Uyghurs in the People's Liberation Army and there are Uyghur members of the Communist Party of China.

As proof, you can google Rebiya Kadeer, the famous Uyghur dissident now exiled in the US. She was a CPC member and held various positions in the National People's Congress and other political institutions before she was arrested and expelled in 1999.

Uyghurs are very visible in the Chinese entertainment and film industry. The video below discusses the careers of some Uyghur actors and the challenges they face in the movie industry.


Below are two of most popular Uyghur movie stars in China.


What about cultural genocide? Well...The Uyghur script is ensconced in their government documents. The Uyghur text is not only recognized and displayed in Chinese government banners and signage in Xinjiang but also printed in the Chinese currency, the Renminbi.

How about Uyghur song and dance? Here they are performing on Chinese TV channels.


Uyghur folk song.


Xinjiang’s version of the American Idol.

https://youtu.be/AwV3tZQg3aA

Notice the Chinese captions? It's for Chinese audiences as well.

How about religious “persecution”? Here are Chinese Muslims observing Idul Fitri in China.

https://youtu.be/_YdFGZelC4I

Below, the Imam talks about how their mosques have changed over the years. China has over 29,000 mosques.

https://youtu.be/v2bVeocHwIY

Uyghur produced comedy skit.

https://youtu.be/W_vrtIWNwfk

Uyghur TV drama.

https://youtu.be/Dg1ZE9urWpA

Uyghur TV talk show.

https://youtu.be/BJ11C_VECoc

Uyghurs and Han Chinese dancing in the streets in Xinjiang.

https://youtu.be/D6e2dDPScTo

Uyghur father getting mad at western propaganda.

https://youtu.be/w87Le1K2Mqw

Muslims are free to practice their religion in China, even Al Jazeera shows you that!

https://youtu.be/D0bvJkF0Ji8

Islam has been in China over 1300 years!

https://youtu.be/5Rj1CzzzJCM

You don’t believe the Chinaman? How about a Muslim woman from the UK.

https://youtu.be/gbkN7TxG5tA

Now you know why Muslim majority countries supported China’s Xinjiang policy at the UN Human Rights Council and not a SINGLE Muslim majority country backed the western alliance.

 

[ChrisTex]

Sorry, ChrisTex. I do not know much about Myanmar.

Fair enough, but it is was more in response to your post at #73 where you were saying 'I’m kind of sad too that some of you “look down” on Muslim countries which did not condemn China. They know better what is really happening with the Muslims in China, and they all knew it is just CIA propaganda and disinformation.'

You could say the same thing happened with Myanmar where Indonesia and others were condemming the treatment of the Rogyans(sp) for a few months and then went silence. Around the same time, there was the situation in Yemen which was fair quiet compared to Myanmar and the the Uyghur in China. My point in bringing up Myanmar is Indonesia was quick to respond, but then silence until the recent events. Same thing with Yemen where there was complete silence.

If you want to say the CIA is involved in everything that you have been describing, I would argue there are operatives from other countries playing a role around the world and not just the CIA.

Here is Mesult Ozil(who spoke up more than others) speaking out and effectively ending his career at Arsenal(debatable, but this was the beginning of the end) and some of the reactions by China. Some of the links will have what he said.

Ini Cuitan Mesut Ozil yang Buat China 'Ngamuk' ke Arsenal

Cuitan Mesut Ozil di Twitternya membuat China naik pitam dan menyasar klubnya, Arsenal.

www.cnbcindonesia.com

Arsenal distance themselves from Mesut Özil comments on Uighurs’ plight

Arsenal have distanced themselves from comments made by Mesut Özil in which he spoke out against China’s persecution of Uighurs

www.theguardian.com

Mesut Ozil: Dari Cuitan Muslim Uighur ke Fenerbahce

Pemain yang akan resmi jadi milik Fenerbahce Mesut Ozil sempat berkomentar terkait kondisi Muslim Uighur.

www.cnnindonesia.com

Özil condemns Muslim silence over Uighur people – DW – 12/16/2019

Former Germany midfielder Mesut Özil has criticized Muslim countries for not speaking up for minorities subjected to abuse in China. More than 1 million people have been sent to reeducation camps in the Xinjiang region.

www.dw.com

Mesut Ozil Bela Uighur, Media China Ancam Arsenal FC

Media China tidak senang dengan ucapan Mesut Ozil soal Uighur.

www.liputan6.com

China Undang Mesut Ozil ke Xinjiang Cek Kondisi Muslim Uighur

Pernyataan pemain Arsenal FC Mesut Ozil tentang kondisi muslim Uighur di Xinjiang menuai gerutu pihak Tiongkok.

www.liputan6.com

 

[Dave70]

Fair enough, but it is was more in response to your post at #73 where you were saying 'I’m kind of sad too that some of you “look down” on Muslim countries which did not condemn China. They know better what is really happening with the Muslims in China, and they all knew it is just CIA propaganda and disinformation.'

You could say the same thing happened with Myanmar where Indonesia and others were condemming the treatment of the Rogyans(sp) for a few months and then went silence. Around the same time, there was the situation in Yemen which was fair quiet compared to Myanmar and the the Uyghur in China. My point in bringing up Myanmar is Indonesia was quick to respond, but then silence until the recent events. Same thing with Yemen where there was complete silence.

If you want to say the CIA is involved in everything that you have been describing, I would argue there are operatives from other countries playing a role around the world and not just the CIA.

Here is Mesult Ozil(who spoke up more than others) speaking out and effectively ending his career at Arsenal(debatable, but this was the beginning of the end) and some of the reactions by China. Some of the links will have what he said.

Ini Cuitan Mesut Ozil yang Buat China 'Ngamuk' ke Arsenal

Cuitan Mesut Ozil di Twitternya membuat China naik pitam dan menyasar klubnya, Arsenal.

www.cnbcindonesia.com

Arsenal distance themselves from Mesut Özil comments on Uighurs’ plight

Arsenal have distanced themselves from comments made by Mesut Özil in which he spoke out against China’s persecution of Uighurs

www.theguardian.com

Mesut Ozil: Dari Cuitan Muslim Uighur ke Fenerbahce

Pemain yang akan resmi jadi milik Fenerbahce Mesut Ozil sempat berkomentar terkait kondisi Muslim Uighur.

www.cnnindonesia.com

Özil condemns Muslim silence over Uighur people – DW – 12/16/2019

Former Germany midfielder Mesut Özil has criticized Muslim countries for not speaking up for minorities subjected to abuse in China. More than 1 million people have been sent to reeducation camps in the Xinjiang region.

www.dw.com

Mesut Ozil Bela Uighur, Media China Ancam Arsenal FC

Media China tidak senang dengan ucapan Mesut Ozil soal Uighur.

www.liputan6.com

China Undang Mesut Ozil ke Xinjiang Cek Kondisi Muslim Uighur

Pernyataan pemain Arsenal FC Mesut Ozil tentang kondisi muslim Uighur di Xinjiang menuai gerutu pihak Tiongkok.

www.liputan6.com

Indonesia was quick to respond because it was the “right” thing to do as many had already believed the fake news which was circulating in local news and social media. The government did not want to be seen as doing “nothing”. The complete silence is due to the fact that they knew it was NOT true.

I’m not saying the MSM is spreading fake news on EVERTHING, only on some issues concerning China.

American expat Cyrus Janssen explains in his video below WHY some companies (like H&M, Nike, Adidas, etc.) believe the fake news, and HOW one company (Sketchers) debunked the fake news.



The CIA is the “gang leader” of the Five-Eyes, so the UK has the MI6, Canada has the CSIS, Australia has the ASIS, and NZ has the NZSIS.

Five Eyes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I’m not a football fan, but I can imagine Mesut Ozil supporting separatist idea like many exiled Uyghurs. Either he truly believed the fake news like some in our forum, or he is completely aware that it is false accusations.

 

[ChrisTex]

Well good luck to you Dave. Keep believing everything has the CIA's hands in it and everything is a conspiracy theory.

 

[Dave70]

Well good luck to you Dave. Keep believing everything has the CIA's hands in it and everything is a conspiracy theory.

Excuse me, I never said EVERYTHING. I said "only on some issues concerning China" (post #86).

 

[HappyMan]

Either he truly believed the fake news like some in our forum, or he is completely aware that it is false accusations.

Dave, as far as I know you are the only one here who believes the CIA is fooling/controlling all the world's major media outlets. Perhaps there are others who are silent, but I doubt there are many, as there are only 38 viewers for this thread and people who believe in conspiracy theories are always ready to tell you about them.

So, do you believe the reputable media outlets are misleading us about anything else, or just every bad thing that they report about China?

 

[HappyMan]

In conversations with the BBC over the past few weeks, 22 people who have left Xinjiang to live abroad described a pattern of threats, harassment, and public character attacks they said were designed to deter them from speaking out about alleged human rights abuses back home.

The cost of speaking up against China

Uyghurs abroad describe a pattern of harassment and intimidation they say is designed to silence them.

www.bbc.com

 

[ChrisTex]

Excuse me, I never said EVERYTHING. I said "only on some issues concerning China" (post #86).

You have come across that way in the numerous posts when you have been defensive when people bring up points that point(no pun intended) to various other sources. Even when you are told good luck, you once again get defensive.

 

[Dave70]

Dave, as far as I know you are the only one here who believes the CIA is fooling/controlling all the world's major media outlets. Perhaps there are others who are silent, but I doubt there are many, as there are only 38 viewers for this thread and people who believe in conspiracy theories are always ready to tell you about them.

So, do you believe the reputable media outlets are misleading us about anything else, or just every bad thing that they report about China?

First of all, I’m not into conspiracy theories. The CIA controlling the media is FACTUAL. Didn’t you read post #67?

As I said, “only on some issues concerning China”, am I not clear enough? My focus in this thread is China, let’s not talk about “other” MSM fake news.

 

[Dave70]

In conversations with the BBC over the past few weeks, 22 people who have left Xinjiang to live abroad described a pattern of threats, harassment, and public character attacks they said were designed to deter them from speaking out about alleged human rights abuses back home.

The cost of speaking up against China

Uyghurs abroad describe a pattern of harassment and intimidation they say is designed to silence them.

www.bbc.com

The BBC has no credibility on their China news reporting. I guess you didn’t read post #69 too.

You will notice that the article is based on report published by the Uyghur Human Rights Project. UHRP is an Anti-China organization funded by US tax payer’s money.

You will also notice BBC’s bias with the statement “what appear to be highly staged videos”.

Aziz Isa Elkun claimed, “You could tell what they were saying was scripted...”.

Watch the video below, do you think the elderly woman was speaking from a script?


Debunked again!

 

[Dave70]

You have come across that way in the numerous posts when you have been defensive when people bring up points that point(no pun intended) to various other sources. Even when you are told good luck, you once again get defensive.

I am sorry I overlooked your "good luck" due to your inaccurate statement thereafter. I guess that's because I'm an engineer. Everything has to fit precisely. If I said A, you should not say it's B.

But everyone needs/wants "good luck", so my apologies again. So herewith, I'm thanking you for it.

 

[Dave70]

Exposed: BBC making fake news.

The BBC recently used a Chinese news clip regarding mainland China's intensive poverty alleviation campaign which assisted many poor Chinese in finding work not available in remote villages. The BBC edited the Chinese clip to paint the whole initiative as a "evil genocidal scheme". Compare both news clips in this video!

 

[HappyMan]

First of all, I’m not into conspiracy theories. The CIA controlling the media is FACTUAL. Didn’t you read post #67?

As I said, “only on some issues concerning China”, am I not clear enough? My focus in this thread is China, let’s not talk about “other” MSM fake news.

I did read it, briefly. I saw a Times article from 44 years ago. I saw a person who was director of the CIA, 34 years ago. And, I saw the speculation of a journalist whom I honestly know nothing about, other than what was on his Wikipedia page. Looking at that page, I can safely say that his work is not without controversy... including harsh criticism from the Times (which you deigned to cite) for writing that "tips sufficiently and with enough regularity into full-scale conspiracy to allow any careful reader to dismiss it."

I'm not the kind of person to ignore live interviews with Uyghur expats in favor of the aforementioned references. Of course I am not convinced. Get a grip.

 

[HappyMan]

The BBC has no credibility on their China news reporting. I guess you didn’t read post #69 too.

I probably did have a wee glance to see if you had any reputable sources or not. Then, assuming it was like the post here and the citations are meaningless, I probably moved on with my life, shaking my head at how much effort people will put into convincing themselves they know some truth that other people don't. It's kinda like a religion for some of you guys, huh?

I'm having trouble finding a source for your assertion that UHRP is funded by American taxes. Got anything reputable?

 

[HappyMan]

Exposed: BBC making fake news.

The BBC recently used a Chinese news clip regarding mainland China's intensive poverty alleviation campaign which assisted many poor Chinese in finding work not available in remote villages. The BBC edited the Chinese clip to paint the whole initiative as a "evil genocidal scheme". Compare both news clips in this video!

This is our problem, the video doesn't show what you say it does. Did they show the entirety of the Chinese news program? Nope. Did they make any false statements regarding the video? Nope. Was that video clip the heart of their story? Nope.

Their story was about a document that showed plans to disperse and re-educate the Uyghur population via work programs. A systemic attempt to alter the Uyghur people against their will. Your source did not counter this document.

The only noteworthy contribution they made was to say that the talking head the BBC used worked for an organization that was funded by the US government. I haven't been able to find a confirmation for that. I see the the VoCMF was established as a charity by Congress, but not where the ongoing funding is from. Got anything reputable?

Look, I'm not going to say that major media sources never get it wrong (though they didn't seem to here), but they do this thing where they report on their own mistakes... I like that. I don't think the government run media in China does that when the government tells them to publish false information. Nope, not unless they want to end up in a BBC story about jailed journalists.

Ya know, the CIA can't just jail journalists when they say something the CIA doesn't like, not unless the CIA wants all the other journalists to spend then next six months reporting on it.

We aren't guessing a out whether or not the CCP suppresses any information that is unflattering to it. It is a known policy. When they stop wearing their "I'm a liar who lies and doesn't let other people speak because they might say I am a liar" T-shirt, I might give some weight to their opinions.

 

[HappyMan]

Wow, another hour gone. I didn't really want to learn this much about random ngos and journalists, but here we are. I need a better hobby.

 

[Pak Tani]

Kudos to you @HappyMan, for reading into the 'evidence' delivered by Dave70. Personally, I cannot be arsed to watch a story of a Chinese Communist Party controlled news agency. Or from any other source from Dave70 after he warned against www.bitterwinter.org after it backfired and turned out to contain loads of articles about atrocities committed by the CCP against all kinds of minorities in (and outside of) China. He picks and chooses whatever supports his narrative (and he is a bit careless sometimes.)

From a different thread:

BTW, you said "this thread is a serious one", are you saying there can be another thread to discuss conspiracy theories?

If you allow me to start a thread on General Chat about "Conspiracy Theory: Origins of SARS-CoV-2", I will not mind the well deserved smacking or the number of 'Disagree' received. After all, the title says "Conspiracy Theory"

Let's take a Great Leap Forward to the current thread:

First of all, I’m not into conspiracy theories.

And that is how you will be remembered.