The Uyghur and China discussion thread

[ChrisTex]

I'll just make a quick response to your question, and deal with R Cameron's later.

To answer your question, my wife is a Catholic, she got it from her friend.

Fair enough. Thank you.

 

[Pak Tani]

https://bitterwinter.org/who-is-afraid-of-bitter-winter/

Since you introduced bitterwinter.org to us by linking to it, it must be a website you find reliable and credible.

Here a link from that same website:
https://bitterwinter.org/i-was-a-teacher-in-a-concentration-camp-women-and-the-uyghur-genocide/
A first hand experience of a woman who witnessed torture of Uyghur prisoners. Any comments?

 

[HappyMan]

Since you introduced bitterwinter.org to us by linking to it, it must be a website you find reliable and credible.

Here a link from that same website:
https://bitterwinter.org/i-was-a-teacher-in-a-concentration-camp-women-and-the-uyghur-genocide/
A first hand experience of a woman who witnessed torture of Uyghur prisoners. Any comments?

I'll comment: Oh, snap!

 

[Dave70]

Since you introduced bitterwinter.org to us by linking to it, it must be a website you find reliable and credible.

Here a link from that same website:
https://bitterwinter.org/i-was-a-teacher-in-a-concentration-camp-women-and-the-uyghur-genocide/
A first hand experience of a woman who witnessed torture of Uyghur prisoners. Any comments?

I'm still working on a long post to be posted in this thread soon. But I'll comment on your post first.

Notice that Bitter Winter is "A Magazine on Religious Liberty and Human Rights". How can it be a Pro-China website? It isn't, but like the MSM, sometimes it publish articles which hurt the US effort against China. Any one can be careless sometimes.

Next, the contributor of the article is Zubayra Shamseden, a Chinese Outreach Coordinator at the Uyghur Human Rights Project (UHRP), a documentation and advocacy group based in Washington, DC. She also chairs the Human Rights Committee of the World Uyghur Congress. For your information, the World Uyghur Congress has been working against China for many years, isn't it obvious they are based in the USA?

 

[Pak Tani]

Dave, that website of yours is a gold mine! It has a special China section of 272 pages(!), each page containing several links to articles about atrocities comitted by the CCP against minorities. Many articles about the evil treatment of Uyghurs, but also on slave labor, organ harvesting, systemic rape of Tibetan boys and girls and a lot more!.

 

[Dave70]

Dave, that website of yours is a gold mine! It has a special China section of 272 pages(!), each page containing several links to articles about atrocities comitted by the CCP against minorities. Many articles about the evil treatment of Uyghurs, but also on slave labor, organ harvesting, systemic rape of Tibetan boys and girls and a lot more!.

Careful what you read on Bitter Winter, it is funded by CESNUR.

CESNUR - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They literally accept any article from any contributor as long as it smears China.

 

[Dave70]

I respect the decision of R Cameron to back out. I’m not posting this to challenge him or anyone. I’m not here to expose the dark side of the CIA. Or defend China. I’m here to raise awareness that fake news is circulating about China. And it is making the Chinese people very angry. The USA clearly wants to start a war with China, if more Americans realized they are being fooled by the MSM, hopefully it could defuse a full-scale hot war. We all don’t want WW3 to happen, except the lunatics.

Those who have watched the film ‘The Coming War on China’ will mostly be convinced that the USA has been waging a war against China. And since the USA controls the MSM, the CIA has at its disposal the MSM for propaganda and disinformation on China. You may ask about evidence, how about an article from The New York Times (an MSM in its own right).

Worldwide Propaganda Network Built by the C.I.A. (Published 1977)

www.nytimes.com

Former CIA Director William Colby had said “The CIA owns everyone of any significance in the major media.”

Source: https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/10/16/cia-owns-everyone-significance-major-media/

And my favorite, William Casey, CIA Director 1981-1987 said, “We’ll Know Our Disinformation Program Is Complete When Everything the American Public Believes Is False.”

For better understanding, I recommend reading Presstitutes Embedded in the Pay of the CIA: A Confession from the Profession. It’s written by the late Dr. Udo Ulfkotte, a German journalist. The book is available at Amazon or Periplus.

Now, if I tell you my sources are articles from China, you may say the same thing about me like what R Cameron said of thegrayzone.com, a “no-name [sic] blog”. The website is not even Chinese, it is American. Moreover, the mentioned article was co-written by a famous journalist, Max Blumenthal > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Blumenthal

I have traveled many times to China, and since I do business with the Chinese, I become interested in their country. Not only that, I follow events and the news there. It takes a long-time China observer like me to spot the half-truth and lies in the MSM. Chinese media is selective, they will only publish what suits the government. The censorship is mainly for political reasons, as well as to maintain its control over the populace. However, they don’t publish fake news. Why? I guess it’s in their culture of shame, and the concept of face. On the other hand, “everything goes” for the MSM, they even pick contents from radical blogs (on the China issue, of course).

So how to figure out what’s true or false about China? And who’s my source? Stay tuned, I’ll continue on next posting.

Note: I decide to break-up my post into segments to avoid becoming too long. The next posting will depend on how much free time I got.

 

[Balifrog]

We, the "educated, developped West" has IMO no business in "teaching" other countries how to run their internal politics. As simple as that.

That is basically a form of neo colonialism. We have seen how well that works out. Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Iran, Iraq etc ......

And the irony is that we are selective concerning who we apply those "moral rules" to.
Why the US did not stop ANY business with Saudi Arabia since 9/11 ? Or since the horrible.execution of the journalist ? Oops, it is a too important customer for the defense industry....
Thruth is, the US is scared about China becoming the 1st economic power in the world (which it will, simply because they have the biggest population, and a rigorous leader). Of course they also aim to become a military top power.

Let China run their country like they want. Just keep an eye that they not invade us. Although economically they have done that already, with our complete agreement. It is us who sell industries to them, use them to assemble stuff that would not be economical to assemble in the West.
My moto during years working in various countries, and not the most democratic ones, was "I am here to do a job, get the project done and have my Western employer make money, not to judge or worse, to discuss / critizise openly their internal politics"
Hell, how do I feel when the US try to teach us,Europeans, spy on us, threathen us with economic sanctions... Example : the Northstream gas pipeline project, WTH is it the US's business to tell us we should not buy gas from Russia ?
I think it is time to bring out those pannels from the 60 and 70's "Yankee, go home !"

And before you ask, no I am not a member of the CCP !

 

[Dave70]

Part 2: Continuation from post #67

How to figure out what’s true or false about China?

You look at both sides of the story, from the MSM and the alternative news. Of course, that necessitates an open and broad mind. But spotting contradicting testimonies of the Xinjiang “victims” in the MSM is the easiest, you don’t even have to look at alternative news.

Victim #1: Tursunay Ziawudun (also spelled as Ziyawudun)

30 October 2019 on Radio Free Asia > She gave no claim of being raped or observed any raping.

15 February 2020 on BuzzFeed News > “I wasn’t beaten or abused” she said. Police told the woman to take off her necklace and earrings.

On September 2020 > The US-based Uyghur Human Rights Project pick her up (to use her for their agitation against China).

03 February 2021 on BBC > She said she was “tortured” and “gang raped” on three occasions, each time by 2 or 3 men. She also said the police “trampled on her belly” and her earrings were “yanked out”, causing her ears to bleed.

Victim #2: Sayragul Sautbay (or Sauytbay)

02 August 2018 on The Globe and Mail > She said she did not personally see any violence. She also said, “There was no meat in the camps”.

After she joined the Swedish Uyghur Association, a part of the World Uyghur Congress (a US-backed Anti-China organization), her testimony changed.

18 October 2019 on Haaretz > She claimed to have seen “all kinds of torture” in the centers.

04 February 2020 on Al Jazeera > She said, “Every Friday, we were forced to eat pork meat”.

Here’s how to make documentary in the styles of BBC.



CNN also made a giant hole of their story, blurring out something to cover a lie. Explained by Canadian Daniel Dumbrill in the video below;

 

[Dave70]

Part 3: Continuation from post #69

A Xinjiang resident heard shocking claims about his community in the Western media and contacted a YouTuber on livestream. Neither side had axes to grind as the caller was Khazak and the YouTuber is Taiwanese (surnamed LIU). Straight talk about forced pork-eating, organ harvesting, brainwashing, and other topics.

You can read the transcript of the livestream chat below. For Mandarin speakers, or anyone who wants to hear the speakers’ tone of voice, this is the link to the video



LIU: Why is there so much ethnic tension in Xinjiang?

XINJIANG RESIDENT: There didn’t used to be. Did you ever hear of Xinjiang being a problem province before the 90s? No, because everyone was equally poor back then, regardless of whether you were Uighur, Han, Kazakh, Tajik, whatever. But when economic reforms began, the Han started to get richer because they could access capital and business networks out east where all of the money was being made. There was also massive Han immigration to the region, to the point where Urumqi is now 78% Han. Even my hometown is now over 60% Han. I would say that most urban centers in Xinjiang now are majority Han. This is not some deliberate plan by the government to ship more Han people to Xinjiang. Rather, these Han immigrants saw business opportunities in Xinjiang and had access to capital and business networks in the rest of China that minorities didn’t have. Anyway, these two things, ethnic wealth inequality and Han migration, are what caused the rise in ethnic tensions in the region.

LIU: Okay, I have to ask. I don’t believe it, but this is what’s being reported in Western media. Are Muslims being forced to eat pork in these so-called re-education camps?

XINJIANG RESIDENT: No, that’s ridiculous. The (CCP) party isn’t stupid. In fact, I think the party is quite clever. Look, you have to take a step back and think about what the party is trying to accomplish in Xinjiang. They are trying to properly govern this restive region and make it a productive part of the country, and in order for them to do that, they have to LOWER ethnic tensions, not raise them. To think that they would do something so patently offensive to most Muslims is absurd.

LIU: Is there organ harvesting at the re-education camps?

XINJIANG RESIDENT: Again, ridiculous. Where did this accusation even come from? It’s probably Falun Gong, isn’t it?

LIU: Are Muslims being brainwashed in the re-education camps?

XINJIANG RESIDENT: How do you define brainwashing? Are you defining brainwashing as forcing Muslims to renounce Islam? Because if you think the government is doing that, then once again, that’s a ridiculous claim. Remember, the party is trying to govern this region, not pour more fuel on the fire. I lived abroad for a few years, and I became friends with a few Christians. They bought me groceries, drove me around, and invited me over for dinner. But whenever we ate together, we would have to say grace, and they wanted me to go to church with them. Isn’t that a form of brainwashing as well? Look, I have no doubt they have patriotic education classes in these camps, but it’s mostly classes about how good of a job China and the party are doing and about how extremism, separatism, and terrorism are bad. They are certainly not forcing people to renounce their beliefs. Now, over time as a result of these classes, but more importantly, the improved economic conditions in Xinjiang, will more and more Uighurs and other minorities in Xinjiang become less religious? Of course they will, but that’s a choice they make, not one forced upon them by the government.

XINJIANG RESIDENT: Also, I have to object to the term “re-education” camp. They are more like vocational camps where people are taught technical skills and Mandarin language skills. Also, law-abiding citizens don’t end up in these camps, only people who have a criminal record. Petty crime was rampant in Xinjiang back in the 90s and 2000s, as the government tended to turn a blind eye to petty crime committed by minority groups because again, they didn’t want to inflame ethnic tensions in this region. Obviously, that policy didn’t work as we saw with the spate of riots and terrorist attacks in the late 2000s and early 2010s, so the government decided to try something different.

XINJIANG RESIDENT: I can speak for myself and I think for most people in Xinjiang when I say that things are much better now. Contrary to what the Western media portrays, we actually welcome the security presence. The guys in uniforms with guns is what keeps terrorists and criminals from running amuck in our region. Look, I’m not going to deny that Uighurs and other minorities in Xinjiang are monitored more heavily than the Han population, but we also receive a lot more preferential policies such as affirmative action programs and income subsidies, so it kind of goes both ways.

XINJIANG RESIDENT: One more thing I’d like to add. Everything is a matter of perspective. When I was a kid, I had trouble learning Mandarin because I come from a Kazakh family, and we don’t speak Mandarin or any other Chinese dialect at home. I was struggling in my Mandarin language class, so my Han Chinese teacher would keep me and some other minority students after class and give us extra lessons. Personally, I’m very grateful to her. It’s because of her that I am able to speak fluent Mandarin and eventually go to college. But what I considered study hall, someone else might consider detention. So what I’m trying to say is that nothing is black and white. It’s all a matter of perspective.

 

[HappyMan]

I'm feeling kind of sad that our forum is hosting so much misleading and untrue information, but I don't want to spend days and days arguing with strangers who won't accept plain truth. I guess this is how the false narrative wins.

 

[harryopal1]

I cannot imagine many people in China would say things critical of the government when being observed. Of course they will deny any suggestions of improper treament of Uyghers. Public confession of guilt and bland assertions of denial are the usual form.

Dave says, "It is all a matter of perspective." The only "true" perspective if that of the CCP. Like Happy Man, there seems little point in continuing to debate these issues with Dave.

 

[Dave70]

I'm feeling kind of sad that our forum is hosting so much misleading and untrue information, but I don't want to spend days and days arguing with strangers who won't accept plain truth. I guess this is how the false narrative wins.

You’re the HappyMan, no need to be sad if you are losing an argument.

It is not my wish to argue with you or anyone, I’m here to present facts to correct misinformation as many believed the false narrative on China spread by the MSM.

I’m kind of sad too that some of you “look down” on Muslim countries which did not condemn China. They know better what is really happening with the Muslims in China, and they all knew it is just CIA propaganda and disinformation.

 

[Dave70]

Maybe if China had a Free Press or allowed foreign journalists to operate without restriction Dave could provide some proof for some of this. What we have instead is China jailing expat journalists. https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...-the-most-journalists-for-second-year-running

I'm not going to take their word for it that they are good guys, not when they are currently suppressing both local and foreign independent news sources. Honest people might be annoyed that you ask for proof, but the don't send you to jail for it.

After decades of ideology war, the Chinese realize that it’s stupid to open their field to MSM who always come with an agenda. Once the Chinese let them in, they will start to define the “reality” by selling a well-selected part of the truth. Their “correspondents” often give misleading and distorted information, even blatant lies that breed misunderstanding, distrust and hatred. China needs stability and peace instead of chaos and inflammatory fake news. Media manipulation with an agenda results in hatred between different communities, color revolutions, civil wars, countries falling apart. Look at the Middle East, they don’t need that.


Above video by Brian Berletic, a geopolitical analysis based in Bangkok, Thailand.

 

[Dave70]

Actually, Indonesia does know what is going on, and has chosen not to participate in what they refer to as "megaphone diplomacy". https://m.merdeka.com/dunia/saat-pemerintah-jokowi-tak-mau-campuri-china-soal-muslim-uighur.html?page=all

Perhaps they are afraid of of response similar to this one. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-asia-56474847

China is well known for its bully tactics. The effect is similar to Mexico's reluctant acceptance of refugees rejected by the US. They didn't like Trump and his bullying, but they put their duty to their own people above the needs of Central/South American foreigners. The situation sucks, but the first fault is obviously with the bully, China in this case.

The article you cite published by Merdeka on 28 December 2019 was based on the allegations of Sayragul Sauytbay. Her story is already debunked as explained in my post #69.

 

[ChrisTex]

You’re the HappyMan, no need to be sad if you are losing an argument.

It is not my wish to argue with you or anyone, I’m here to present facts to correct misinformation as many believed the false narrative on China spread by the MSM.

I’m kind of sad too that some of you “look down” on Muslim countries which did not condemn China. They know better what is really happening with the Muslims in China, and they all knew it is just CIA propaganda and disinformation.

So what about what happened in Mymmar? At one point it was all over the news and then silence until recent events(apples and oranges when comparing to what happened before and now)). You could also look at the situation in Yemen which hardly got any attention.

Now if you say don't believe the media and everything they say, I will agree with you. It doesn't matter where the news is coming from(Fox, CNN, BBC, Sky, etc...), take what they say as a grain of salt and look into it yourself. Now when I was asking you the specific questions about Christians, it is because I know people who have been in China and experienced that. Maybe not in the say region as the Uyghur, but if what I have been told based on first hand knowledge, I can believe it is happening to the Uyghur.

 

[Dave70]

So what about what happened in Mymmar? At one point it was all over the news and then silence until recent events(apples and oranges when comparing to what happened before and now)). You could also look at the situation in Yemen which hardly got any attention.

Now if you say don't believe the media and everything they say, I will agree with you. It doesn't matter where the news is coming from(Fox, CNN, BBC, Sky, etc...), take what they say as a grain of salt and look into it yourself. Now when I was asking you the specific questions about Christians, it is because I know people who have been in China and experienced that. Maybe not in the say region as the Uyghur, but if what I have been told based on first hand knowledge, I can believe it is happening to the Uyghur.

OK, so what happened in Myanmar?

Listen to what Philippine Foreign Affairs Secretary has to say, "the Myanmar problem is British legacy".

 

[ChrisTex]

OK, so what happened in Myanmar?

Listen to what Philippine Foreign Affairs Secretary has to say, "the Myanmar problem is British legacy".

You don't remember the Roygna(sp) situation that was maybe a year or two ago? I am not talking about the current situation that is in the news.

 

[Dave70]

You don't remember the Roygna(sp) situation that was maybe a year or two ago? I am not talking about the current situation that is in the news.

Yes, he talked about the Rohingya situation. It's just a 7 minute video, please watch.

 

[HappyMan]

You’re the HappyMan, no need to be sad if you are losing an argument.

It is not my wish to argue with you or anyone, I’m here to present facts to correct misinformation as many believed the false narrative on China spread by the MSM.

I’m kind of sad too that some of you “look down” on Muslim countries which did not condemn China. They know better what is really happening with the Muslims in China, and they all knew it is just CIA propaganda and disinformation.

The problem is not winning or losing. The problem is that your opinions have no basis in reality. It's like trying to convince a delusional person that there are no invisible rats in their kitchen... you just can't do it. Nothing can stop them from imaging an explanation for why the rats are there and no one else can see them. They believe their own delusions more than any number of factual statements from other people.

If you want evidence that the Chinese are committing atrocities, it is there in spades on reliable and trust worthy media sites. If you won't believe the obvious truth as presented by the professionals, I have little chance of breaking through your delusions.

The thing is that I like this place and I hate the spreading of misinformation and hoaxes, so it is disturbing to me to see your posts here. I understand why the mods would never take them down, but other people with similar delusions will find your posts here and be validated in their wrong opinions. Having you here is like watching a spreading infection and knowing you can't do anything to stop it. Just sad.