The Uyghur and China discussion thread

[harryopal1]

The reality seems to be that if a Chinese citizen proclaims against the "truth" as dictated by the CCP they are in big trouble. That poor doctor who was harassed early on for questioning the official line on Covid in Wuhan..

The CCP government of China seems to be as described by Orwell with 1984. Constant camera reconnaissance with facial recognition immediately recognizing someone who has a poor social credit rating that then results in an inability to apply for many kind of jobs or travel easily is certainly Orwellian. Yes, I can imagine all the assertions that it controls crime and safety and security of the people for the greater good.

Unfortunately the human propensity for corruption leaks across most governments including communist so this social credit system and camera identification provides a ready means to immediately identify and control anyone who criticizes those at the top of the tree benefiting most from their positions.

For all the problems involved with western style democracies UK, USA, Australia and many other Commonwealth and European countries we can point the finger and call out corrupt politicians who are taken to task and without the person identifying them being thrown into gaol for upsetting the social order.

You will have to excuse those of us living with this kind of freedom finding it hard to believe anything the CCP says be it regarding the Uygher or territorial disputes in the South China Sea.

 

[Dave70]

You aren't the only one on this forum who has spent time in China. There are at least a couple of people here who have spent a year or more there.
People there are afraid to say the "wrong" thing. I've seen that myself. They will tell you that bad things will happen to someone who refuses to support the CCP. Again, my own experience.

Your claims sounds absurd to me because usually Chinese people in China do not wish to discuss “politics” with Westerners.

The government controls the media and restricts factual information that makes it look bad. This is well documented by reasonable sources.

I agree, see my answer post #74.

You don't need some mysterious "propaganda of hate" to see that the CCP is rotten. They are an authoritarian government who seeks to control the thoughts and expressions of thought of their citizens to an unreasonable degree. Do you not understand that that is bad?

Yes, communism is bad, authoritarian government is bad. But what can we do, who are we to judge them? The Chinese love their country, and their CCP (aka CPC). Why? Because the government has been working for the people, it has lifted more people out of poverty than any other country in the world and at record time too. Who cares about the loss of some personal freedom compared to living in fear (crime) and hunger (poverty)?

China has invaded no one, has traded with many African countries and is bringing them out of poverty, looks after its people (When COVID-19 hit, Xi Jingping said ‘We can make money later, people come first’), uses vaccine diplomacy to win allies rather than bombs to kill perceived enemies, it pays its bills on time, buys primary produce at fair rates, contributes to global initiatives.

The USA hates the way China does things and worries that the disenfranchised in the USA start to cause civil unrest and end the cruel, selfish and evil plutocracy that governs the country for its own benefit.

 

[Pak Tani]

Nevertheless, I did not find any fake news produced by any Chinese media so far.

In the meanwhile, in a different thread, you post a preposterous article that claims that the origin of COVID19 is from a military bio-warfare facility in Washington brought to China by American soldiers during military games:

Breaking/Exclusive: US Brought COVID19 to China with Fake Army Team for Military Games, Evidence Mounting

In October 2019, the US brought 172 (really 369) military athletes to Wuhan for the World Military Games. Despite having the largest military in the world, ten fold, the US came in 35th behind nations like Iran, Finland and Slovenia. No video or photos exist of the US team, no records were kept, a huge team but a pitiful performance for the best military in the world.

The US team did so badly that they were called “Soy Sauce Soldiers” by the Chinese. In fact, many never participated in any event and stayed near the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, where the disease is said to have originated only days after the US left the area.

The US team went home on October 28, 2019 and within 2 weeks, the first human contact cases of COVID 19 were seen in Wuhan. The Chinese have not been able to find “patient zero” and believe he was a member of the US team.

They also have sources that say the US had misrepresented influenza that Trump claims has killed thousands, an influenza carried to China by the US team, an influenza that was really COVID 19, a disease developed in a military bio-warfare facility in the state of Washington, now “ground zero” in the US for COVID 19.

The Chinese claim, something censored in the US, that the inattentive attitude and disproportionately below average results of American athletes in the game indicate they might have been in for other purposes and they might actually be bio-warfare operatives, and that their place of residence during their stay in Wuhan was also close to the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, where the first known cluster of cases occurred.

Exclusive: US Army Brought COVID-19 to China with Fake ‘Military Games’ Team (March 2020 story) | VT Foreign Policy

www.veteranstoday.com

This does not only prove your inability to spot fake news, it shows your intentions to cast doubts in in the minds of the reader by -again- blaming the U.S. for evil actions (the pandemic) while China is just a poor victim.
I think your public denial of what is going on in Xinjiang is a slap in the face of the victims and their families.

I am contributing here because it is the right thing to do (to expose the lies, disinformation, and propaganda of hate). I know this will be a thankless job, not only that, I am sure I am being disliked by many.

Don't worry, I'm sure your loyalty to the Communist Party of China will not go unnoticed, comrade!

 

[harryopal1]

".....who are we to judge them?"

The advantage of civilized societies is that they can and do influence reactionary governments. It is a common theme of bad governments that these are "internal matters" and therefore should not be remarked upon by others. So as with events in Myanmar at the moment it is perfectly proper for the military to slaughter its citizens?

"Who are we to judge them?" The international community can take that role. Does this mean the CCP or Myanmar military will listen? Perhaps not but sometimes that international pressure does influence decision making and then when censure is backed with sanctions it can and often does have an effect.

Does this mean all international criticism will be correct? Of course not but that does not that mean we therefore should abdicate any sense of moral concern for fellow human beings in other countries. Look at the international Black Lives Matter cause which has shaken up societies around the world. It is time for China to be shaken up from its tiresome rhetoric seeking to justify oppression from the individual level to the societal level.

Yes, China amazingly did lift millions out of poverty but that does not then justify oppressive and ongoing inhumane treatment of the Ugyhers, Tibetans or other members of the human race.

 

[Dave70]

In the meanwhile, in a different thread, you post a preposterous article that claims that the origin of COVID19 is from a military bio-warfare facility in Washington brought to China by American soldiers during military games:

Wait a minute! What does my statement "Nevertheless, I did not find any fake news produced by any Chinese media so far" (from post #119) have anything to do with the article from www.veteranstoday.com.

Veterans Today is not a Chinese media or website, it is American.

Don't worry, I'm sure your loyalty to the Communist Party of China will not go unnoticed, comrade!

Nobody in China even knows that I'm posting as Dave70 in this forum, I don't even have any Chinese friend or business partner who is a member of the CPC.

BTW, I said "I'm not into conspiracy theory", and I mean IN THIS THREAD (response to your post #100).

 

[Dave70]

Yes, China amazingly did lift millions out of poverty but that does not then justify oppressive and ongoing inhumane treatment of the Ugyhers, Tibetans or other members of the human race.

That's the problem, Harryopal. It is simply NOT TRUE that there is oppression and ongoing inhumane treatment of the Uyghurs, Tibetans or other members of the human race in China.

 

[Pak Tani]

Wait a minute! What does my statement "Nevertheless, I did not find any fake news produced by any Chinese media so far" (from post #119) have anything to do with the article from www.veteranstoday.com.

Veterans Today is not a Chinese media or website, it is American.

My point was that your general ability to spot fake news is awfully flawed. So terribly flawed that you posted that ridiculous article from veteranstoday.com
It's either that...or you did know that the article was fake news, but you posted it anyway to serve your agenda. Or both, if that's even possible.

 

[harryopal1]

So we just believe the Chinese Communist Party which totally controls information and new sources and ignore the myriad of independent reporters from a multiplicity of news agencies and countries?

Of course Hitler had similar problems pre war when all these nasty things were being said about persecution of Jews, Gypsies and other ethnic groups.

I guess you would also argue that the military did not slaughter students at Tianamen Square? Another CIA propaganda coup?

 

[R Cameron]

As I said, many of my sources are Western expats in China. Others are my Chinese friends and business partners, but none of them is a CCP member.

And what are their sources? Chinese controlled state media, no? Or did they go to the "camps" in Xinjiang and do their own investigative journalism?

Clearly Chinese media and "Western" media have entirely different versions of reality for these camps and conditions of Uighers in Xinjiang. Someone is lying; who has the greater motive and ability?

Western journalism is far from perfect, but there is far greater freedom and variety than what is available in China. Just look at The Guardian, The Intercept, Glenn Greenwald, etc. who were publishing sensitive and embarrassing state secrets released by Edward Snowden, and they were not stopped. I wonder what happened to the poor Chinese person who leaked the 400 page "Xinjiang Papers" detailing the operating procedures for these 'camps' and propaganda to tell family and media? I wonder if any Chinese media reported on that operating manual for the camps?

Western media is not a monolith, and there are very few issues with a wide consensus, so the idea that the CIA is controlling it all in dozens of countries, while the Chinese controlled media is pure and uncorrupted, is laughable.

 

[HappyMan]

Western media is not a monolith, and there are very few issues there is a wide consensus on, so the idea that the CIA is controlling it all in dozens of countries, while the Chinese controlled media is pure and uncorrupted, is laughable.

That is really the crux of the issue, isn't it? The government in China has made it very, very, difficult for the rest of the world to either: a) take their word for it regarding human rights issues, b) believe statements coming from their media sources, or c) believe statements given to foreign journalists in front of minders.
If they want to be believed, they shouldn't do all of the things a government does when it is hiding things. (Not a principle I believe in for individual citizens, but for governments, heck yeah.)

In case anyone is unaware of what happens to journalists who fail to hold the official line, this woman was sentenced to four years of jail time for "picking quarrels and provoking trouble" when she reported on Wuhan. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55463241

 

[harryopal1]

Here is another CIA manipulation I suppose. An Australian clothing store chain with an emphasis on ethical treatment of employees has been hammered by the CPC. Story reported today The Age in Melbourne.

"Last week, the Communist Youth League and the People’s Liberation Army called out an H&M statement dating back to September that expressed concern about reports of Uyghurs in forced labor. That turned the company into a symbol for foreign companies meddling in internal Chinese politics. Then store locations vanished from online maps, Chinese e-commerce platforms dropped the brand and about 20 H&M stores were shut, some by landlords."

So simply expressing concerns about reports of Uygher forced labour is a serious sin according to the CPC. How is one supposed to accept statements of the Chinese government when it engages in such heavy handed action against anyone even raising a question?

Here is the link to the full story.

Unmade in China: H&M CEO Helena Helmersson’s terrible first year

Only 14 months into the role, Hennes & Mauritz CEO Helena Helmersson has already suffered more challenges than some long-time CEOs face during their careers.

www.theage.com.au

 

[HappyMan]

https://homebrave.com/home-of-the-brave//the-test

 

[Dave70]

My point was that your general ability to spot fake news is awfully flawed. So terribly flawed that you posted that ridiculous article from veteranstoday.com
It's either that...or you did know that the article was fake news, but you posted it anyway to serve your agenda. Or both, if that's even possible.

You are entitled to your opinion on me. And regarding the Veterans Today article, I think it is still relevant because the WHO virus origin report is inconclusive. It’s not over until it’s over.

 

[Dave70]

So we just believe the Chinese Communist Party which totally controls information and new sources and ignore the myriad of independent reporters from a multiplicity of news agencies and countries?

Of course Hitler had similar problems pre war when all these nasty things were being said about persecution of Jews, Gypsies and other ethnic groups.

I guess you would also argue that the military did not slaughter students at Tianamen Square? Another CIA propaganda coup?

If you read post #67, you will understand why I don’t trust MSM news about China. On the other hand, I perfectly understand why you don’t trust Chinese media. What did I do? I read both sides of the story. But 3 factors formed my opinion; 1. Evidence of MSM fake news (see post #69 on contradicting testimonies and the video about CNN’s giant hole of their story). 2. The Organization of Islamic Cooperation findings after their due diligence. 3. My common sense and logic (see post #84).

 

[Dave70]

And what are their sources? Chinese controlled state media, no? Or did they go to the "camps" in Xinjiang and do their own investigative journalism?

Clearly Chinese media and "Western" media have entirely different versions of reality for these camps and conditions of Uighers in Xinjiang. Someone is lying; who has the greater motive and ability?

Western journalism is far from perfect, but there is far greater freedom and variety than what is available in China. Just look at The Guardian, The Intercept, Glenn Greenwald, etc. who were publishing sensitive and embarrassing state secrets released by Edward Snowden, and they were not stopped. I wonder what happened to the poor Chinese person who leaked the 400 page "Xinjiang Papers" detailing the operating procedures for these 'camps' and propaganda to tell family and media? I wonder if any Chinese media reported on that operating manual for the camps?

Western media is not a monolith, and there are very few issues with a wide consensus, so the idea that the CIA is controlling it all in dozens of countries, while the Chinese controlled media is pure and uncorrupted, is laughable.

You know, I can throw the same questions back at you. Did you witness any of the alleged crime in Xinjiang? Did you do your own investigative journalism? Or, you just believe what the MSM reported?

Who has the greater motive and ability? The US, of course. Did you watch the film “The Coming War on China” (post #58)?

For the record, I NEVER said “the Chinese controlled media is pure and uncorrupted”.

 

[Dave70]

Here is another CIA manipulation I suppose. An Australian clothing store chain with an emphasis on ethical treatment of employees has been hammered by the CPC. Story reported today The Age in Melbourne.

"Last week, the Communist Youth League and the People’s Liberation Army called out an H&M statement dating back to September that expressed concern about reports of Uyghurs in forced labor. That turned the company into a symbol for foreign companies meddling in internal Chinese politics. Then store locations vanished from online maps, Chinese e-commerce platforms dropped the brand and about 20 H&M stores were shut, some by landlords."

So simply expressing concerns about reports of Uygher forced labour is a serious sin according to the CPC. How is one supposed to accept statements of the Chinese government when it engages in such heavy handed action against anyone even raising a question?

Here is the link to the full story.

Unmade in China: H&M CEO Helena Helmersson’s terrible first year

Only 14 months into the role, Hennes & Mauritz CEO Helena Helmersson has already suffered more challenges than some long-time CEOs face during their careers.

www.theage.com.au

That's because the accusations are FALSE.

American expat Cyrus Janssen explains in his video below WHY some companies (like H&M, Nike, Adidas, etc.) believe the fake news, and HOW one company (Sketchers) debunked the fake news.

You can watch the video on post #86

 

[harryopal1]

My point in referring to the H&M story was not about whether the Uygher forced labour story was true or false but that just to ask the question was so unacceptable. To be jumped upon in such a heavy handed fashion is indicative of this government's ruthless response if people do not unquestioningly follow the "correct" line.

 

[Derf]

I wonder how the US does on human rights.
The black population of that country is roughly 13.4%, but roughly 34% of its prisoners are black.
The united states accounts for around 4.25 % of the world's population, but has around 25% of the world's prison population.
The majority of those prisoners are held without trial. Actually, pending trial, but a simple choice of word that allow misinterpretation of a sentence is handy if you want to make fake news sound real.

Blacks are murdered in the street by cops, and suffer massive social injustice over their lives. Their chances of being stopped for minor or supposed traffic offences are massively higher than a white person, and they are commonly arrested or even being murdered by cops without committing any offence.
Racism is a very clear issue, especially among Trump supporters, many of whom want slavery brought back.
I wonder if it would be a good idea for China to send peacekeeping troops to the United states in the hope of stopping that country's genocide against America's black population.

More seriously, and on topic, we have little idea what's really happening in China because the vast majority of the news comes from people with an interest in bending the news to suit them. China does it all the time, and the states are no better.
The upshot is, something is very probably going on, but we are unlikely to find out the truth because we're fed a diet of total trash instead of factual news.
Not that I trust China at all, but the states has a pretty bad human rights record and they do tend to start a lot of wars.

 

[harryopal1]

An insight into the extreme nature of CPC surveillance broadcast today the by Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

 

[Dave70]

An insight into the extreme nature of CPC surveillance broadcast today the by Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

Are you proud of your country hacking the government website of another country?