The Uyghur and China discussion thread

HappyMan

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Ohh come on HappyMan, you are obviously a CIA or MI5 stooge and Dave will see through your cover. As he says, "I know the truth.
I do find this whole situation bizarre. Dave seems to have spent a lot of time writing up his assertions that the CIA is after oil in China. Really, a lot for a forum with such small readership. Now we have a seven-on-one argument with no common basis of reality between us. It is highly unlikely anyone will take his sources seriously.What's the point? If I were him I don't think I would bother. It's just so much effort.
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ChrisTex

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Well he did fail to respond to my response on the persecution of Christians and the church raids. So are those Christians extremist?

I wonder what Dave would say about North Korea and the images they show that everyone is happy and all is well. Yes I am actually curious about this.

Now what does this have to do with the original article in the thread? I am glad you asked as in both the things we brought with China and if you go further back to communist Eastern Europe, things are censored and if the powers to be don't like it(speech. religion, people group), you might disappear.
 

Dave70

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Well he did fail to respond to my response on the persecution of Christians and the church raids. So are those Christians extremist?

I wonder what Dave would say about North Korea and the images they show that everyone is happy and all is well. Yes I am actually curious about this.

Now what does this have to do with the original article in the thread? I am glad you asked as in both the things we brought with China and if you go further back to communist Eastern Europe, things are censored and if the powers to be don't like it(speech. religion, people group), you might disappear.

I guess church raids happen because the church is illegal, does it make sense? If that's prosecution of Christians, then I have no problem with your definition. Nevertheless, I did saw some Christian churches in China so these must be the legal ones.

There have been crackdowns due to infiltration of some Christian churches in China, especially those created and financed by American evangelical Christians and the CIA itself, which serve as platforms to foment the overthrow of the Chinese government. This is a fact known and discussed even by Vatican scholars, including Gianni Valente, as reported in the article https://bitterwinter.org/who-is-afraid-of-bitter-winter/

Yes, people in China are poor and starving, just like in North Korea. But wait, how come millions of Chinese can travel abroad every year? They are considered big spenders, and how come they all returned to their country to continue their unhappy life? ChrisTex, you can't compare China with North Korea.
 

Dave70

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I do find this whole situation bizarre. Dave seems to have spent a lot of time writing up his assertions that the CIA is after oil in China. Really, a lot for a forum with such small readership. Now we have a seven-on-one argument with no common basis of reality between us. It is highly unlikely anyone will take his sources seriously.What's the point? If I were him I don't think I would bother. It's just so much effort.
Dbmm tjho IbqqzNbo: Uif tipf jt po uif puifs gppu. Uif tipf jt po uif puifs gppu.

You are right HappyMan, so much effort, I should not bother at all. I can see you are a considerate person. But ChrisTex keep pushing me with his question, and I answered out of courtesy. Actually no problem if I have the time. I'm my own boss, so time is flexible, but sometimes I'm really busy with my work. Don't take me as a China expert though, because I'm not. I just say what I know which is true. If I don't know about the issue, I will not answer it.
 

ChrisTex

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I guess church raids happen because the church is illegal, does it make sense? If that's prosecution of Christians, then I have no problem with your definition. Nevertheless, I did saw some Christian churches in China so these must be the legal ones.

There have been crackdowns due to infiltration of some Christian churches in China, especially those created and financed by American evangelical Christians and the CIA itself, which serve as platforms to foment the overthrow of the Chinese government. This is a fact known and discussed even by Vatican scholars, including Gianni Valente, as reported in the article https://bitterwinter.org/who-is-afraid-of-bitter-winter/

Yes, people in China are poor and starving, just like in North Korea. But wait, how come millions of Chinese can travel abroad every year? They are considered big spenders, and how come they all returned to their country to continue their unhappy life? ChrisTex, you can't compare China with North Korea.

No worries if you are busy with work. You had for a while responding in a rapid fire way so I thought you were ignoring the question. So my apologies for that. For the record, I wasn't trying to turn this into a 7 on 1 thing, but respond to your comment about post #53 and not calling you a Chinese asset. Now if you are a Chinese operative, any way you can find some information on a mobile gaming company for me? ;)

Wait, so the CIA is backing churches now? Honestly, this is a new one and I had not heard of this before.

No, persecution of Christians who might be having a Bible study in their own home, home church, or discipling a new believer. You know, what the Romans used to do to Christians way back when? Unless the churches you mention about overthrowing the Chinese government are the Chinese version of Westboro Baptist Church(church in name only. WBC is more like a cult)/David Kurish(sp), the people I had mentioned and knew from post #76 aren't trying to overthrown any government.

The article you posted and I could be wrong, comes across mainly addressing the Catholic church, saying the Pentacostal church is backed by Rockefeller, and mentions The Church of Almighty God(first time I had heard of this church). If you are using the Church of Almighty God as an example of an illegal church, I would agree with you as just the snippets I found from Wikipedia(it gave a brief summary and explained it slightly better than the link you provided) does make it sound like a cult as it comes across as having some really messed up doctrine. Again, this is the first time I had heard of them.

Again, you missed the point when I brought up North Korea. Do you actually believe everything you have seen where people look happy and all is well? I am going to guess and you can correct me if I am wrong, but probably not. We have all heard the stories about people who as the media puts it, 'escaped from North Korea' which is about the same as people from Cuba who deflected to the US or any time during the Cold War. My point is, just because a country tries to say nothing is wrong, everyone is happy, doesn't mean it is true. Look at January 2020 with the former Indonesia Health Minister and covid saying there is nothing to worry about. Same thing with China.
 

R Cameron

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I have said earlier, I traveled to China for business in the years past, before COVID-19. Of course, also as tourist all over China including Xinjiang. You have to walk the streets, meet the people and talk to them, mostly Uyghurs in Xinjiang selling everything from food to gift items. You can even meet them in nightclubs dancing the night away. Yes, the Uyghurs (not Han Chinese).

That feels like you are trying to simply avoid my question.

Again, my question was, "How do you know this truth? Have you spent time in the Xinjiang province in recent years? Or what news sources do you trust to obtain this truthful account?"

Have you been to these "camps" and seen that the people are treated well and are free to leave? You seem to think that your positive experiences in parts of China means the CCP is not capable of these serious allegations. I have many positive experiences in the USA, but I am also capable of acknowledging that the government is a part of many abuses of human rights.

So I ask again, if you have not personally witnessed these camps, what is your source of news that you know delivers the True Truth?
 

Helpful Herbert

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The people I met in North Korea seemed pretty happy as far as I could tell. A lot happier than people I see on my trips to Europe in any case.
 

HappyMan

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You are right HappyMan, so much effort, I should not bother at all. I can see you are a considerate person. But ChrisTex keep pushing me with his question, and I answered out of courtesy. Actually no problem if I have the time. I'm my own boss, so time is flexible, but sometimes I'm really busy with my work. Don't take me as a China expert though, because I'm not. I just say what I know which is true. If I don't know about the issue, I will not answer it.

From the first time I saw Trump on TV during the primaries, I could tell he had a bad case of narcissism and it was clear that he thought selfishness was a fine and moral trait. I thought that type of person was really unlikely to put the average citizen first. When he did something terrible for most people but good for his backers, I was not surprised. But, you shouldn't assume someone is a bad actor just because they unashamedly say they are. So, I would look at his actions from both sides and see which made more sense, complete incompetence or self-service. In my mental composite of the man it was obvious that he was doing the things he did because they would benefit him and he didn't care about other people.

I have a similar response to the CCP based off of what I know of them. They block anything that disagrees with the party line from their nation's internet. They imprison journalists without cause or evidence of wrongdoing. They threaten any dissenting members of their populace and neighbors and follow through on those threats. They take clearly illogical but self-serving positions (south China Sea, for example). They run their country in an opaque manner. Now, we have evidence from a preponderance of sources that they are performing human rights violations against the Uyghur.
You say there is a dispute regarding the facts. For me, I choose to look at it from both sides again. Is it more likely that a benevolent CCP is helping a willing Uyghur population (while coincidentally blocking their contact with their relatives in the outside world), or that a heavy handed bunch of authoritarians are abusing the Uyghur? For me, it is clear that the CCP is being true to their nature as a governing body and abusing any who would dare resist their selfish and authoritarian desires.
 
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harryopal

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The people I met in North Korea seemed pretty happy as far as I could tell. A lot happier than people I see on my trips to Europe in any case.
Communist governments have a long track record of carefully guiding citizens to show happy faces. Officials representing local areas are quick to report those who do not behave as model citizens. Russia post war hoodwinked many intellectuals and celebrities such as Paul Robeson who described Russia as the workers' paradise. This while Stalin presided over a slave state. Friends who visited China in 1970 came back thrilled at the happiness and honesty of all the Chinese they met and without an inkling of the horrors of the cultural revolution and so it was with a succession of foreign leaders who visited China soon after.

In Vietnam shortly after the end of the war and travelling in both north and south I was given a "minder" who tried to make sure I did not speak with people who had not been cleared. At formal meetings the sense of oppressive monitoring was palpable. I do recall a meeting with Hmong in the mountains with the official minder explaining how happy the Hmong were to turn over traditional lands to the state for the benefit of all. I challenged this assertion and recall how miserable looking the village leader was in trying to maintain the correct line. I was able to elude my minder by shooting out to go jogging from wherever I stayed and met informally with people in both north and south. It was an enlightening experience.

Seeing happy faces often covers the reality of dissatisfaction and distrust of governments. At least in many less than utopian democratic states people can shout and vent their spleen at government representatives. The hammer soon falls on unhappy people who have the temerity to look unhappy, or worse, protest in countries such as China.
 

scouser59

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My experience working in china , the truth was hard to come by , people lied continuously .
If you pushed people for the truth they were scared , for obvious reasons . With all the bad things going on with the muslims and their re education camps , it smells like Nazi Germany . It would not surprise me if a 3rd world war came from current chinese arrogance in the south china sea , Taiwan etc .
 

Dave70

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That feels like you are trying to simply avoid my question.

Again, my question was, "How do you know this truth? Have you spent time in the Xinjiang province in recent years? Or what news sources do you trust to obtain this truthful account?"

Have you been to these "camps" and seen that the people are treated well and are free to leave? You seem to think that your positive experiences in parts of China means the CCP is not capable of these serious allegations. I have many positive experiences in the USA, but I am also capable of acknowledging that the government is a part of many abuses of human rights.

So I ask again, if you have not personally witnessed these camps, what is your source of news that you know delivers the True Truth?

I will answer all of your questions after this whole China thing is taken off this thread to a new one as suggested by Ruserious on post #93.

In the meantime, let me also ask you a couple of questions, 1. Do you believe or not that MSM has been making fake news about the Uyghurs? 2. Why do you think none of the Muslim countries condemn China if the allegations are true? 3. Do you think the USA genuinely cared about the Muslims (particularly those in Xinjiang)?
 

R Cameron

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I will answer all of your questions after this whole China thing is taken off this thread to a new one as suggested by Ruserious on post #93.
More BS avoidance. You won't answer questions, but you'll pose your own

In the meantime, let me also ask you a couple of questions, 1. Do you believe or not that MSM has been making fake news about the Uyghurs? 2. Why do you think none of the Muslim countries condemn China if the allegations are true? 3. Do you think the USA genuinely cared about the Muslims (particularly those in Xinjiang)?
1. Generally, no. There may be exceptions, but the consensus from widely varied media sources draw a consistent overall picture.
2. Fear. Money. For example.
3. The USA is not a monolith; absolutely I think many Americans and American reporters genuinely care about Muslims, ethnic detention camps, and specifically the Uighers.
 

Dave70

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More BS avoidance. You won't answer questions, but you'll pose your own


1. Generally, no. There may be exceptions, but the consensus from widely varied media sources draw a consistent overall picture.
2. Fear. Money. For example.
3. The USA is not a monolith; absolutely I think many Americans and American reporters genuinely care about Muslims, ethnic detention camps, and specifically the Uighers.

Actually, I thought I already answered your question #87 with #88. But I realized you wish to know my "source", it will be a long answer and I do not wish to be responsible for derailing this thread (mind you, harryopal started the whole thing with post #52).

Anyway, thank you for your answers.
1. The "widely varied media sources" are all MSM, right?
2-1. I think you look down on those Muslim countries... money over principles???
2-2. Your source is WION which is an Anti-China news site (India is part of the US alliance).
3. Yes, the USA care so much about Muslims that they killed more Muslims than all other countries combined.

As I said, we can debate further if this whole China thing is moved to a new thread. 7 against 1, no problem. Let's dig more dirt if you want.
 

ChrisTex

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Random question Dave, where did you originally find the website bitter winter?
 

Dave70

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Random question Dave, where did you originally find the website bitter winter?

I'll just make a quick response to your question, and deal with R Cameron's later.

To answer your question, my wife is a Catholic, she got it from her friend.
 

Dave70

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As a prelude, I recommend watching 'The Coming War on China'. A film by award winning journalist John Pilger, he reveals what the news doesn’t – that the world’s greatest military power, the United States, and the world’s second economic power, China, both nuclear-armed, may well be on the road to war. Nuclear war is not only imaginable, but planned. The greatest build-up of NATO military forces since the Second World War is under way on the western borders of Russia. On the other side of the world, the rise of China is viewed in Washington as a threat to American dominance. To counter this, President Obama announced a ‘pivot to Asia’, which meant that almost two-thirds of all US naval forces would be transferred to Asia and the Pacific, their weapons aimed at China. A policy which has been taken up by his successor Donald Trump, who during his election campaign said “We can’t continue to allow China to rape our country and that’s what they’re doing”.

 

R Cameron

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Nah @Dave70 , I'm not interested in any further China discussion with you. You won't so much as name sources, think every source on Uighur abuse is some international media cabal, and parrot the CCP talking points precisely. I don't engage beyond maybe 20 minutes of self-entertainment with flat-Earthers, and likewise I am done engaging with your antics.
 

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