Vaccine effectiveness and Herd Immunity

[R Cameron]

Do you know how many people have died in the US after taking the COVID vaccine in 2021? According to the VAERS it is approximately 5,000.

That is patently false. The CDC is explicitly clear in multiple places all over the VAERS website that the data contained is unverified, submitted by anyone, and should not be used to assert any type of statistic or causal relationship.

Why is the reporting so much higher than others? There is a simple and unexciting answer;

One, this is the first large new-vaccine rollout of the modern era of internet on 24-hour cable news, so millions more people are aware of the VAERS system and likely to use it.

Two, this pandemic and the vaccines specifically have been politicized to the extreme, further increasing the propensity for people to abuse the VAERS system (people have self-reported turning into The Hulk) or simply report very minor and temporary side effects that are expected and of no concern.

 

[R Cameron]

Like I said before and will say again about VAERS, this is the only data we have. What other data can I use?

The CDC follows up on every death reported to VAERS, it's their submission form, not their results. If you want real data, you wait for the CDC to publish their real data, not their submission form.

In hindsight, with how this has all been politicized, they probably shouldn't make that data public, but of course taking it down now would understandably look terrible.

 

[nd_eric_77]

Two, this pandemic and the vaccines specifically have been politicized to the extreme, further increasing the propensity for people to abuse the VAERS system (people have self-reported turning into The Hulk) or simply report very minor and temporary side effects that are expected and of no concern.

(Deleted a silly joke)

 

[Hawk256]

The CDC follows up on every death reported to VAERS, it's their submission form, not their results. If you want real data, you wait for the CDC to publish their real data, not their submission form.

In hindsight, with how this has all been politicized, they probably shouldn't make that data public, but of course taking it down now would understandably look terrible.

Just curious, how many deaths from the vaccine will be considered acceptable?

 

[gemima]

Just curious, how many deaths from the vaccine will be considered acceptable?

As long as the number of deaths is a lot less than the risk of death from the disease the vaccine is protecting against. Public health experts weigh this up - it's their job.

Billions have had the vaccines now around the world and how many have died from them? Vs how many have died from COVID (or from not being able to access hospital care due to the hospitals being overwhelmed).
If the vaccines were so dangerous we'd be seeing people die from them - I know no one who has had anything beyond a sore arm and a few headaches. But I know many people who have died of COVID.

 

[Hawk256]

As long as the number of deaths is a lot less than the risk of death from the disease the vaccine is protecting against. Public health experts weigh this up - it's their job.

I guess we know where you stand on the Trolley Problem then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

 

[gemima]

I guess we know where you stand on the Trolley Problem then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

Are you implying that no one should have a vaccine against a virus that we know is killing about 1% (maybe more) of people it infects because a handful of people may die after getting a vaccine? A handful of people die crossing the road or getting out of bed in the morning.
Life is never without risk. We navigate them daily. I choose to trust the safety net the vaccines provide to make my life safer.

 

[Ruserious]

I guess we know where you stand on the Trolley Problem then.

Yes no question. Let one go to save 5.
Your view seems to be to let the 5 die whilst you sit around and debate the question.

 

[Hawk256]

Yes no question. Let one go to save 5.
Your view seems to be to let the 5 die whilst you sit around and debate the question.

I don't think you understand the Trolley Problem. The problem is not to to save 5 people or 1 person, the problem is do you actively participate and kill one innocent person to save 5 peolple. Maybe for you that is an easy call. IF you ever the one pulling the switch, I hope you are as confident. What if it was a loved one that you had to kill to save 5 others? Would that make a difference?

 

[Hawk256]

Are you implying that no one should have a vaccine against a virus that we know is killing about 1% (maybe more) of people it infects because a handful of people may die after getting a vaccine? A handful of people die crossing the road or getting out of bed in the morning.
Life is never without risk. We navigate them daily. I choose to trust the safety net the vaccines provide to make my life safer.

I'm not implying that at all. What I am saying is that when you force someone to take the vaccine, you could be effectively pulling the switch. There is no right or wrong answer to the Trolley Problem. Each person will have their own opinion.

 

[gemima]

I'm not implying that at all. What I am saying is that when you force someone to take the vaccine, you could be effectively pulling the switch. There is no right or wrong answer to the Trolley Problem. Each person will have their own opinion.

Where have I ever said I want to force people to take vaccines?
You do you my dear; it would be better for the population if the majority rolled up their sleeves to get the vaccine.
In most countries, this will be achieved without forcing people to have them (Indo isn't one of these countries and life here is going to be difficult without one over the coming months/ years).
I feel like this is a silly discussion because it seems like you will take/ have taken Sinovac anyway.

 

[Hawk256]

I feel like this is a silly discussion because it seems like you will take/ have taken Sinovac anyway.

I have taken Sinovac and yes it is a silly discussion.

 

[R Cameron]

Just curious, how many deaths from the vaccine will be considered acceptable?

1 in every 1888 people in the entire world have already died from Covid19 (4.175m deaths, 7.88b population) and it isn't even close to done with us, if we let it run its course without vaccines, I think it likely to reach 1 in every 1000 people in the world will have died from it.

So, if vaccine deaths are 1 in 1 million, that is a 1000x improvement. I would be very happy with that.

And I have seen zero reason to believe vaccine deaths are more than 1 in 1 million of general population. Perhaps vaccine deaths are 1 in 10,000 in 80+ year olds with heart problems, still 1000 times better than Covid for them.

 

[Hawk256]

So, if vaccine deaths are 1 in 1 million, that is a 1000x improvement. I would be very happy with that.

Do you want personally talk to the 7,900 people that would die in your hypothetical situation, would you like to pull the switch yourself or does it make it OK because they are just numbers in an equation?

 

[john madden]

What was silly has turned pathetic.

 

[William King]

And the best one, at last somebody says it !
"He added: "We know it still doesn't eradicate the disease, it just makes it milder."

What do you mean at last? Everyone, literally everyone has been saying that since before any vaccine was available!

 

[William King]

According to the VAERS it is approximately 5,000.

VAERS is a pubically accessible and editable platform.

CDC says 3. Not 5,000.

 

[fastpitch17]

Do you want personally talk to the 7,900 people that would die in your hypothetical situation, would you like to pull the switch yourself or does it make it OK because they are just numbers in an equation?

Put a million people right in front of me. I would look them all in the eye and pull the switch. The alternative would be for the virus to pull it's switch. The virus switch would fall a much greater number. The question isn't about switches or people grabbing others out of a crowd and choosing death for them. The question is which way do more survive? We all know that answer.

 

[Hawk256]

Put a million people right in front of me. I would look them all in the eye and pull the switch. The alternative would be for the virus to pull it's switch. The virus switch would fall a much greater number. The question isn't about switches or people grabbing others out of a crowd and choosing death for them. The question is which way do more survive? We all know that answer.

I have never questioned which way more will survive. I have only asked questions that force thought. You feel you you would be doing the right thing, that is commendable but doesn't make it the absolute right answer. Not everyone would be comfortable executing a million people. The bottom line is people have different opinions and would react different ways. Who decides which one is right and which one is wrong? Why try to force someone to follow your thoughts exactly?

 

[fastpitch17]

I have never questioned which way more will survive. I have only asked questions that force thought. You feel you you would be doing the right thing, that is commendable but doesn't make it the absolute right answer. Not everyone would be comfortable executing a million people. The bottom line is people have different opinions and would react different ways. Who decides which one is right and which one is wrong? Why try to force someone to follow your thoughts exactly?

What million. Out of the million 7,900 would fall. The other 992,100 would be alive. That seems to be the smartest right answer and if someone disagreed I would need to question their mental capabilities. Some died after receiving the Smallpox Vaccine. Some died after receiving the Polio Vaccine. Some died after receiving today's MMR Vaccines. Still, look where we are with them. Imagine where we would be without those vaccines. Yes, the right answer is definately, pull the switch.