Secular Indonesian groups warn govt to save democracy

Lee Bale

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Rest assured, I'm not trying to change your worldview on what is worth knowing or not. I was just suggesting that what is being offered in the MSM as the best truth money can buy best be taken with a grain of salt. Lies about Iraq do effect people even if their kids were not sent there, their taxes for 17 yrs were wasted on that mess which could have been otherwise used for something better. JFK might be irrelevant to you but it does not mean that what/how it was done did not have an effect on how the nation was governed after it happened.

We are all different and will have different reason why we might want to check information being streamed to us by MSM. Mine was simple, curiosity.


My understanding of the lay of the land today leads me to the conclusion that there are no respectable and reliable mainstream news sources. Right off the bat I crossed off New York Times after their great job in 2003. NPR went down the toilet right around the time first Bush was president and completely fell off the cliff in 2001. CNN, BBC and FOX reliable ? Not for me. Independent journalism on a large scale is nearly dead.



I never suggested that you would be best informed going to news articles. From my comment,


Trying to find truth in news articles without knowing fairly well history of the region and the players is surely setting one up to swallow crap. Let me just cut you off the pass, I don't mean every news articles about a lost dog or the building of a bridge. But then who knows, journalist today are so deep in crap for their journalistic honesty that even these stories might be somehow contrived.

Weirdly poignant to this topic, we are doing source examination with our grade eight classes in humanities at the moment. This website is a fair example of independent media in my opinion: https://www.fairobserver.com/.

As far as I'm concerned, as a teacher I guess, is that you guys are all big boys and girls and have the critical faculties available to you to make your own minds up. It's the kids I'm trying to save :))
 

Henry_SLB

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Weirdly poignant to this topic, we are doing source examination with our grade eight classes in humanities at the moment. This website is a fair example of independent media in my opinion: https://www.fairobserver.com/.

As far as I'm concerned, as a teacher I guess, is that you guys are all big boys and girls and have the critical faculties available to you to make your own minds up. It's the kids I'm trying to save :))
Glad to be of service. ;)

"we are doing source examination "
I find this interesting.
How do you approach this ? Case studies ? If so what sort of cases and what questions to do you ask the students to answer ?
 

Lee Bale

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Glad to be of service. ;)

"we are doing source examination "
I find this interesting.
How do you approach this ? Case studies ? If so what sort of cases and what questions to do you ask the students to answer ?

We give them a number of sources from different websites (Fair Observer, HK News, Fox News, Britannica encyclopedia etc.). Then, ask them to read articles of their choice from one of the sources and apply questions from a checklist. The questions are linked to an acronym that we have borrowed, intended as a mnemonic device, C.A.R.S (http://novella.mhhe.com/sites/00798...s, Support),highest level of quality possible.).

This encourages the kids to think about the credibility, reasonableness, reliability and source as abstract measures to weigh the value of the source that they are discussing. Collaboration is facilitated through discussion and thoughts are shared on the comments section for the task in Google Classroom. The teacher then offers praise for comments that identify bias and offer good analysis. Next week, the kids will be offered a number of case studies to investigate sources from, I'm still thinking about this but will probably use Stalin's editing of historical images to erase party rivals from history, so to speak. Need to think about how to scaffold it for them and source enough examples 👍
 

Henry_SLB

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This encourages the kids to think about the credibility, reasonableness, reliability and source as abstract measures to weigh the value of the source that they are discussing. Collaboration is facilitated through discussion and thoughts are shared on the comments section for the task in Google Classroom. The teacher then offers praise for comments that identify bias and offer good analysis. Next week, the kids will be offered a number of case studies to investigate sources from, I'm still thinking about this but will probably use Stalin's editing of historical images to erase party rivals from history, so to speak. Need to think about how to scaffold it for them and source enough examples 👍

Good to see students being introduced to the muddy waters of source material. Starting with this topic in 8th grade is challenging as the life experience of the individual is limited. But heck, you have to start somewhere.

I like the use of Stalin as I suspect I know which images you are referring to.
Photo manipulation
but to be fair to the Commies
Fox News under fire

If I was running the class I suspect I would be fired that same week or the next day after assigning this project. Here is one of my favorite go to examples of information warfare. I'd include a picture along with an article for my case. One half of the class would be assigned to be the defense lawyers and the other the prosecution during the trial of "Was Colin telling the Truth ?" The teams would be asked to present a case for and against. This is a beautiful cases because so many images were used when it was developing :LOL:

15 yrs ago

 

HappyMan

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Rest assured, I'm not trying to change your worldview on what is worth knowing or not. I was just suggesting that what is being offered in the MSM as the best truth money can buy best be taken with a grain of salt. Lies about Iraq do effect people even if their kids were not sent there, their taxes for 17 yrs were wasted on that mess which could have been otherwise used for something better. JFK might be irrelevant to you but it does not mean that what/how it was done did not have an effect on how the nation was governed after it happened.

We are all different and will have different reason why we might want to check information being streamed to us by MSM. Mine was simple, curiosity.


My understanding of the lay of the land today leads me to the conclusion that there are no respectable and reliable mainstream news sources. Right off the bat I crossed off New York Times after their great job in 2003. NPR went down the toilet right around the time first Bush was president and completely fell off the cliff in 2001. CNN, BBC and FOX reliable ? Not for me. Independent journalism on a large scale is nearly dead.



I never suggested that you would be best informed going to news articles. From my comment,


Trying to find truth in news articles without knowing fairly well history of the region and the players is surely setting one up to swallow crap. Let me just cut you off the pass, I don't mean every news articles about a lost dog or the building of a bridge. But then who knows, journalist today are so deep in crap for their journalistic honesty that even these stories might be somehow contrived.

Actually, NPR and PRI contributors have produced many stories on the causes and effects of the mismanagement of the Iraq War (belatedly, of course). They have done loads of targeted, in depth, stories on just about every aspect of the war I can think of. They even reported on the lives and work or Iraqi reporters...

The New York Times produced a very intriguing series called Caliphate about a supposed ISIS terrorist (Syria, not Iraq) . It was popular. It won awards. The reporter was lauded. Then, the veracity of the primary source for the series was called to question. Now, The Washington Post, BBC News, the LA Times, and The Guardian have all run stories about the potential flaws in Caliphate. This is why the MSM is so invaluable, they are willing to expose their own and each other's flaws... most of the time.

If you don't want MSM, your other option is... what? Smoke signals from the next valley over? Someone's unsubstantiated opinions available via Twitter? A publication that kindly clarifies the bias right in the name (Catholic, in this case)?

Only Fox News viewers would consider Fox News a reliable source. They even went so far as to defend themselves in court by claiming their host should not be taken literally. https://www.npr.org/2020/09/29/9177...s-tucker-carlson-tells-you-so-say-fox-s-lawye They don't belong in a list with the BBC or CNN.

History books are for history, yo.
 

Nimbus

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The attack on mainstream media has a similar pattern to the attack on scientists. The argument is always that “they’re often wrong” and “they’re biased”. I don’t doubt that professional journalists and scientists are not free from error, because they’re human. What makes them the best source of truth that we have is because they’re willing to correct themselves, and they always work & compete to get to the truth.

If MSM is always wrong, then what’s the alternative? Openly biased source published by your own tribe, politicians, and clergy?

This reminds me of Churchill’s famous words:
Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time...

Mainstream media is the worst source of news, except for all the others.
 

harryopal

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There is also the not inconsiderable benefit of keeping on their toes authorities across the spectrum of government and businesses by exposing corruption, ineptitude and bad management.

When citizens seek address relating to some difficulty the usual advice from the authorities, government or otherwise, is we will look into it but don't make a public fuss it will only make things worse. But when there is a mainstream media fuss the oft heard response is, "Oh there has been a misunderstanding and the problem has now been rectified." And some poor person who has been on the wrong end of the stick for months suddenly has their social welfare entitlement restored or the toxic fumes from an incinerator have stopped.

Vigorous, free media organizations, for all their faults, are necessary elements in maintaining freedoms and some semblance of democracy.
 

Henry_SLB

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If you don't want MSM, your other option is... what? Smoke signals from the next valley over? Someone's unsubstantiated opinions available via Twitter? A publication that kindly clarifies the bias right in the name (Catholic, in this case)?
There are many very knowledgeable people on foreign affairs, economy, politics and finance who present their analysis on their own web sites or sites that specialize in those topics. There are also news sources that have nothing to do with what we take as MSM yet they do write articles or offer translated articles from other countries etc. That's where I go. Such website often take stories or events appear in say New York Times and show a different side to the story. Information access does not end with MSM though it is MSM that drives the general opinion in any country, so don't get huffy that I am picking on the US.

I use my own judgment where to go and what to read. I don't need hand holding to be told where the Oracle of Truth in news media resides. Most definitely not by MSM. I could be wrong in what I pick but hey, that's Life. I have my opinion and you yours. Who knows who is write because I definitely don't know. I just have a belief that it is me.

So you don't think Twitter has anything to offer. Little do you know. Twitter has many people that ,judging by your responses, can safely be said to know far more than your flippant allusion to "unsubstantiated opinions". It just take a little bit of effort to find them.

Prof Francois Balloux
Prof. Michael Mina
Catherine Austin Fitts
Barstool News

[/QUOTE]
History books are for history, yo.
[/QUOTE]
The history is needed to understand the players in the drama because a freedom fighter one day can be made to be a terrorist the next. To understand this you need to know history to see how this game is played. Things don't happen in vacuum. But "Yo", I suspect you are not ready yet to understand this layer of the onion.
CNN at its best
How about this one,
Eye Witness
So US MSM couldn't pick this girl's BS apart ? They simply got it wrong. I bet to this day there is no NYT or WaPo story to set the record straight.
 

HappyMan

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If we are just throwing random links at each other now... Here ya go, debunked: https://www.metabunk.org/threads/de...jaco-and-the-fake-live-gulf-war-reports.1140/ Mind you, I didn't bother looking for additional sources on this, since I'm just refuting a random YouTube video. Metabunk did, though. They have attached concurrent interviews and newspaper articles explaining the set-like backgrounds that were constructed at the Dharhan International Hotel (in Saudi Arabia).

The first link was enough of a waste of time. Not bothering with the second.
 

HappyMan

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The history is needed to understand the players in the drama because a freedom fighter one day can be made to be a terrorist the next. To understand this you need to know history to see how this game is played. Things don't happen in vacuum. But "Yo", I suspect you are not ready yet to understand this layer of the onion.
Sure, buddy, context is everything. That is why one well sourced and thorough article from a reputable source is worth more than a deluge of 280 character tweets. Good journalism provides context that you just can't fit into a tweet.
 

Henry_SLB

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If we are just throwing random links at each other now... Here ya go, debunked: https://www.metabunk.org/threads/de...jaco-and-the-fake-live-gulf-war-reports.1140/ Mind you, I didn't bother looking for additional sources on this, since I'm just refuting a random YouTube video. Metabunk did, though. They have attached concurrent interviews and newspaper articles explaining the set-like backgrounds that were constructed at the Dharhan International Hotel (in Saudi Arabia).

The first link was enough of a waste of time. Not bothering with the second.
Exchanging information and not flinging mud leads to better understanding.

Having being branded a Trump agent on EXPAT I have to run to get to work hacking the voting systems ;)
Thanks and Cheers
 

HappyMan

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Exchanging information and not flinging mud leads to better understanding.

Having being branded a Trump agent on EXPAT I have to run to get to work hacking the voting systems ;)
Thanks and Cheers
You not going to cop to the BS in your CNN link, then? I didn't throw mud in that response, by the way. But your willingness to provide misleading but intelligent sounding drivel is starting to get under my skin. I either let the crap stain my lovely forums, or waste my time trying to clean up after you. Really annoying.
 

HappyMan

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Don't worry, I know a echo chamber when I see one.

Enjoy the silence.
Silence can be preferable to the sound of one man farting.
For your edification, you might note that in post number 72 you failed to respond to the topic and instead implied that I was slinging mud.

If you take offence to my general tone, that may be fair. Further, if you can explain why your YouTube link regarding CNN is not complete hogwash and why you don't feel the need to retract or edit it, I may apologize.

Accusing someone of being in an echo chamber because they reject "alternative (nonfactual) facts" is either nonsensical or disingenuous. Your choice.
 

HappyMan

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How about this one,
Eye Witness
So US MSM couldn't pick this girl's BS apart ? They simply got it wrong. I bet to this day there is no NYT or WaPo story to set the record straight.
Hell, I went and looked this up, too. The NYTimes did run an award winning op-ed on this... was right there in Wikipedia. Why don't you look these things up before you post them? https://www.nytimes.com/1992/01/06/opinion/remember-nayirah-witness-for-kuwait.html

This video was testimony before Congress, btw. It was then cited by Bush repeatedly. The story didn't get covered because of some conspiracy by the MSM, it got covered because it was news. Perhaps it was sloppy of the press to expect testimony before the US Congress to be factual and well vetted. To be certain, we have all learned that not all presidential statements can be taken at face value.
 

HappyMan

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Is anyone else thinking that if I was less of an asshole we wouldn't be losing a new and active forum member, or is that just me?
 

dafluff

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Is anyone else thinking that if I was less of an asshole we wouldn't be losing a new and active forum member, or is that just me?

Don't worry about it. He came in here and "shared" his lengthy opinions freely, shared some questionable links and material, but as soon as he encountered an opposing opinion he cried "echo chamber" and left...oh well, no big loss.
 

Nimbus

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Echo chamber? I feel that I’m getting challenged here all the time. Where is this place he’s talking about. I want a little rest for once.
 

ChrisTex

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Echo chamber? I feel that I’m getting challenged here all the time. Where is this place he’s talking about. I want a little rest for once.

At Fried Chicken Masters in Block M.
 

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