Secular Indonesian groups warn govt to save democracy

Helpful Herbert

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With regard to the building permits for churches (as mentioned in the article), if all sides could stop taking religion so seriously, they would all get less stressed by issues like this. The best way to achieve this would be to eliminate religion completely from the school curriculum. From my observation that is where the problem starts.
 

dafluff

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serious_fun

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Why does a Catholic Asian News organization even need to exist? I think ill give that one a pass when searching for my news in Asia.

:sleep: There are over 1.2 billion Catholics around the world, and perhaps they're entitled to read from a source that isn't filtered through an anti-Catholic perspective? But, yeah, you're certainly free to ignore them if you'd like.

Thanks for the reply Helpful Herbert.

Classic internet forum replies: 1 clear response for every 2 criticisms of the source.:yo:
 

gemima

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:sleep: There are over 1.2 billion Catholics around the world, and perhaps they're entitled to read from a source that isn't filtered through an anti-Catholic perspective? But, yeah, you're certainly free to ignore them if you'd like.

Thanks for the reply Helpful Herbert.

Classic internet forum replies: 1 clear response for every 2 criticisms of the source.:yo:
A lot of the issues in the world nowadays stem from people NOT being critical of the source of their news. We live in the age of spin.
I'm Irish, so very well versed in the horrific abuses of the catholic church/ associated catholic organizations. Wouldn't trust them as far as i can throw them.
Get your news from where you like but balance it with the understand of what spin the journalist/ editor/ news org is putting it through please!

Anyway - I thought that the islamic parties get a very small % of the popular vote here? I'm in now way an expert in local politics but I was surprised when I looked this up a few years ago.
 

dafluff

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A lot of the issues in the world nowadays stem from people NOT being critical of the source of their news. We live in the age of spin.
I'm Irish, so very well versed in the horrific abuses of the catholic church/ associated catholic organizations. Wouldn't trust them as far as i can throw them.
Get your news from where you like but balance it with the understand of what spin the journalist/ editor/ news org is putting it through please!

Anyway - I thought that the islamic parties get a very small % of the popular vote here? I'm in now way an expert in local politics but I was surprised when I looked this up a few years ago.

Islamic parties such as PKS, PAN, PBB do indeed only get a small percentage of the vote, but this is overlooking the fact that the electorate in general is very conservative. Jokowi had to add the leader of the Indonesian Ulema Council as his VP pick because he was seen as not Muslim enough. And this is how Jokowi's son in law is campaigning in Medan for the mayor post:

 

Nimbus

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In the age of fake news and government-sponsored disinformation campaigns, it’s very important to scrutinize the source.

Here is the original from Tempo:

The statement was made in a seminar sponsored by Public Virtue Institute and Erasmus Huis.
 

harryopal

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Having faith in a religion and belief in an afterlife is obviously sustaining for billions of people around the world but it seems at the far end of most formal religions are extremely intolerant views that hardly service the notion of compassion and love for one's fellow humans.

As for Catholicism, quite apart from recent revelations about corruption at the highest levels of the Vatican and the staggering world wide revelations about abuse of minors across many decades I find it hard to think of the Catholic church without reflecting on the influence of the Vatican in stamping out notions of birth control around the world and continuing these policies despite the obvious over population of the world with all the associated problems.

As for the John Lennon/ Yoko Ono dream "imagine... that there was no more religion" I am afraid that is just a dream. Even in "secular" countries religious groups are always working hard to push for laws that conform to their notions of how to live. Still, I agree with attempts to diminish the influence of religious organizations on governments.
 

centurion

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Having faith in a religion and belief in an afterlife is obviously sustaining for billions of people around the world but it seems at the far end of most formal religions are extremely intolerant views that hardly service the notion of compassion and love for one's fellow humans.

As for Catholicism, quite apart from recent revelations about corruption at the highest levels of the Vatican and the staggering world wide revelations about abuse of minors across many decades I find it hard to think of the Catholic church without reflecting on the influence of the Vatican in stamping out notions of birth control around the world and continuing these policies despite the obvious over population of the world with all the associated problems.

As for the John Lennon/ Yoko Ono dream "imagine... that there was no more religion" I am afraid that is just a dream. Even in "secular" countries religious groups are always working hard to push for laws that conform to their notions of how to live. Still, I agree with attempts to diminish the influence of religious organizations on governments.

The last witch burned by the Church was in 1722. The last witch in the world was executed in 2020.
Despite the atrocities of the Church-before, today, you make, in this case, the legitimate victim-religious minorities guilty for exercising their faith and rightfully complaining about oppression, and no, they are not oppressed in Starbucks. This is called "blame the victim", same as a provocatively dressed woman that is raped and accused of "provocation".

I am no catholic nor Christian, and I consider secularism as a good thing, for the record.
 

harryopal

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The last witch burned by the Church was in 1722. The last witch in the world was executed in 2020.
Despite the atrocities of the Church-before, today, you make, in this case, the legitimate victim-religious minorities guilty for exercising their faith and rightfully complaining about oppression, and no, they are not oppressed in Starbucks. This is called "blame the victim", same as a provocatively dressed woman that is raped and accused of "provocation".

I am no catholic nor Christian, and I consider secularism as a good thing, for the record.

I am sorry, I do not quite get the point you are trying to make. I do not blame the billions of religious believers but refer to extremism and the politically active elements of religions which try to impose their views irrespective of the rights of others. I don't see how I am blaming the victims,
 

centurion

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@harryopal
Secularists and minorities complain about oppression and growing Islamization in a Catholic magazine and you start quoting the atrocities of the Catholicism/Church and making a false equivalency between today's church's actions (i.e. birth control policies, sex scandals) and minority, as it looks like, systemic religious suppression in Indonesia(i.e. forbidding to build churches even with building permits, burning churches, attacking religious services, even communal violence).

I believe you have a noble intention to give a balanced opinion but I think is no way the same. Indonesia is on the wrong path, and this is how real identity politics look like.
 

Nimbus

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Oh please, when any organized religion gets big enough, people always manage to corrupt it.

It is undeniable that religious fundamentalism was, is, and will continue to be a problem in Indonesia. But, before you get all excited, let me point out that Evangelicals gave America Trump. They’re putting a guy who is fundamentally unqualified to be president in charge of enough nuclear warheads to destroy the world, all because they want Christianity to rule USA.

Two wrongs don’t make a right. I’m bringing this point because the media piece of religious groups love to vilify worshippers of other gods, while turning a blind eye to their own problems.

A Catholic news outlet pointing fingers at Muslims is about as credible as a Muslim newspaper criticizing Catholics.
 

centurion

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@Nimbus
I do not remember when the last time Evangelical rednecks burned/demolished sacral buildings of other faiths on a systemic scale, throwing faeces on people congregating, demolishing synagogues and suppressing religious liberties. It is a false equivalency and relativisation. The last witch burned by the Church was in 1722. The last witch in the world was executed in 2020, but luckily not in Indonesia.

I do not need a Catholic magazine to point me on a fact that I can see every day in Indonesian MSM, even anecdotally in my neighbourhood. I suppose you are not for a long time in Indonesia, but the country is exposed to 20-year Salafist indoctrination paid by Saudi Arabia and that is taking a toll. It will need decades and generations to back the country in normal, if ever. I interpret the latest Government suppression of civil liberties as the last weapon to keep the country under control, while citizens will pay the price.

And as you called first the T-word, Trump is the most peaceful president from Woodrow Wilson, like it or not. He did not start any war (cynics would say -except the II US Civil War). I suggest keeping that subject in the Trump section.
 

Helpful Herbert

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"the country is exposed to 20-year Salafist indoctrination paid by Saudi Arabia and that is taking a toll"

Very true. On a lighter note, I have heard that Lithium will become a key part of the economy this century, and the main exporter may be .... Chile. Traders are referring to Chile as the new Saudi Arabia. Let's hope the drop off in oil revenues stops the export of Saudi doctrine, and countries like Indonesia can start the process of recovery. Maybe one day it will be Chile exporting a repressive misogynist culture around the world on the back of its huge lithium riches. [I admit I know very little about Chile].
 

Ruserious

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I do not need a Catholic magazine to point me on a fact that I can see every day in Indonesian MSM, even anecdotally in my neighbourhood

I agree to your point about rising Islamic fundamentalism in Indonesia but I still maintain that I do not want a Catholic newspaper to be the one raising these issues. There are still plenty of unbiased news sources around to fill that role.
 

centurion

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@Ruserious
I quoted "Indonesian MSM" (mainstream media) for reporting this news as well. However, if they take a strong stance, they can receive a backlash. I exclude some elitist intellectual news outlets-JP, Tempo, etc that I follow.
 

Nimbus

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@Nimbus
I do not remember when the last time Evangelical rednecks burned/demolished sacral buildings of other faiths on a systemic scale, throwing faeces on people congregating, demolishing synagogues and suppressing religious liberties. It is a false equivalency and relativisation. The last witch burned by the Church was in 1722. The last witch in the world was executed in 2020, but luckily not in Indonesia.

I do not need a Catholic magazine to point me on a fact that I can see every day in Indonesian MSM, even anecdotally in my neighbourhood. I suppose you are not for a long time in Indonesia, but the country is exposed to 20-year Salafist indoctrination paid by Saudi Arabia and that is taking a toll. It will need decades and generations to back the country in normal, if ever. I interpret the latest Government suppression of civil liberties as the last weapon to keep the country under control, while citizens will pay the price.

And as you called first the T-word, Trump is the most peaceful president from Woodrow Wilson, like it or not. He did not start any war (cynics would say -except the II US Civil War). I suggest keeping that subject in the Trump section.

You’ll get no argument from me about the problem with church burnings and other violence perpetrated by radicalized Muslims in Indonesia, it happens and it’s indefensible. I am not saying that the problem doesn’t exist, nobody here is saying it either. The issue is the news source; there’s plenty of credible sources other than a self-proclaimed Catholic news network.

I have crossed swords with Islamic fundamentalists all the way since high school, and I read Indonesian sources without Google translate, so I don’t need your lecture about the subject. I actually provided an Indonesian source that puts the topic statement in context. The Tempo article is far more detailed and better written than the linked UCA News piece.

Trump is the most peaceful president? I suppose you can say that. He unilaterally withdrew US troops from Syria and probably caused additional tens of thousands of to die from attacks by either Turkey or Russian-backed Assad. He wants to withdraw from Afghanistan without any concrete plan, basically allowing the Taliban to move in again. We know how ‘peaceful’ that was the last time around.


Let’s praise Neville Chamberlain for being peaceful while we’re at it.

I live in Trump country and deal with Trump supporters on a daily basis, I suggest you stay out of this subject.
 

colroe

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You’ll get no argument from me about the problem with church burnings and other violence perpetrated by radicalized Muslims in Indonesia, it happens and it’s indefensible. I am not saying that the problem doesn’t exist, nobody here is saying it either. The issue is the news source; there’s plenty of credible sources other than a self-proclaimed Catholic news network.

I have crossed swords with Islamic fundamentalists all the way since high school, and I read Indonesian sources without Google translate, so I don’t need your lecture about the subject. I actually provided an Indonesian source that puts the topic statement in context. The Tempo article is far more detailed and better written than the linked UCA News piece.

Trump is the most peaceful president? I suppose you can say that. He unilaterally withdrew US troops from Syria and probably caused additional tens of thousands of to die from attacks by either Turkey or Russian-backed Assad. He wants to withdraw from Afghanistan without any concrete plan, basically allowing the Taliban to move in again. We know how ‘peaceful’ that was the last time around.


Let’s praise Neville Chamberlain for being peaceful while we’re at it.

I live in Trump country and deal with Trump supporters on a daily basis, I suggest you stay out of this subject.
I am curious, why should the OP "stay out of this subject" because you live in "Trump country"? Donald Trump is the duly elected President of the USA so in my opinion the whole of the USA is "Trump country".
 

Nimbus

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I am curious, why should the OP "stay out of this subject" because you live in "Trump country"? Donald Trump is the duly elected President of the USA so in my opinion the whole of the USA is "Trump country".
He said that I should not talk about Trump on this thread, as he thinks I lack the knowledge about the guy. He was trying to prove his superior handle on Trump by pointing out that Donald is the most peaceful U.S. president in a while. I’m simply returning the favor.
 

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