No Indonesian Culture

[SamR]

Coming to live in the West it's interesting that the default is to trust. Makes things so much smoother.

I think that’s because in the West, there’s little to no gap between how things are on paper and how things are in practice. In Indonesia, the surprise happens when how things are on paper and how things are in practice correlate with each other.

that the money collected from public are treated similarly to their own money.

I’ve always seen this as an extension of the Indonesian phenomena where it’s hard to get something (money or otherwise) back when you borrow it to someone because somehow they think they now own it.

In the West, it’s always “Sure, you can borrow it” and you know it’ll be returned to you next week.

In Indonesia it has to be “Sure you can borrow it but I need it back next week” and it needs to be said a good few times if you want to be sure your item is returned.

 

[Samoerai]

I think that’s because in the West, there’s little to no gap between how things are on paper and how things are in practice. In Indonesia, the surprise happens when how things are on paper and how things are in practice correlate with each other.


I’ve always seen this as an extension of the Indonesian phenomena where it’s hard to get something (money or otherwise) back when you borrow it to someone because somehow they think they now own it.

In the West, it’s always “Sure, you can borrow it” and you know it’ll be returned to you next week.

In Indonesia it has to be “Sure you can borrow it but I need it back next week” and it needs to be said a good few times if you want to be sure your item is returned.

Like renting house in Indonesia ... 30 juta per month.

Owner: "Huh, but pay 1 year (= 360 juta) upfront, iya?"
Me: "Why?"
Owner: "I have trust issues"
Me: "But we sign a contract"
Owner: "Contract here in Indonesia means shit"
Owner: "Show me the money ..."

 

[Nimbus]

This actually means something else, though it's also interesting

Defenestration - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's throwing someone out of the window (as part of a revolution or lynching)

Indonesia can benefit from occasional defenestration of “orang partai” in government.

 

[Bob]

Three decades of institutionalized corruption by Suharto taught Indonesians to suspect each other, and they haven’t recovered much from that.

Most Americans have little problem saying they don’t like you to your face; most Indonesians actively avoid being unpleasant upfront, but they’d backstab you easily. Of course this creates trust issues.

To make matters worse, most Indonesians are still living in survival mode, where every single day is a battle to stay alive. As they say, all’s fair in love and war.

When you add a culture of superfluous bureaucracy created by a European colonial administration and a military dictatorship, you often get a perfect shitstorm.

I know you're not a fan of Suharto but didn't that start long before he was born, during the Dutch days?

 

[pantaiema]

Three decades of institutionalized corruption by Suharto taught Indonesians to suspect each other, and they haven’t recovered much from that.

Most Americans have little problem saying they don’t like you to your face; most Indonesians actively avoid being unpleasant upfront, but they’d backstab you easily. Of course this creates trust issues.

To make matters worse, most Indonesians are still living in survival mode, where every single day is a battle to stay alive. As they say, all’s fair in love and war.

When you add a culture of superfluous bureaucracy created by a European colonial administration and a military dictatorship, you often get a perfect shitstorm.

The Suharto legacy of damaging the country over three decades of ruling is not just corruption, manipulation, abuse of power but also the culture of scapegoat to get support. This was another living evidence that Suharto scapegoating the communist party to get support from the west. During his reign there were a lot of unidentified dead body on the riverbank, forest, etc. The children of the communist party are left with stigma, difficult to get employed, can not become a civil servant, to join the army. etc. The school children were brainwashed thinking that people have an affiliation with communism are deserved to be killed.

These two people were student where their Indonesian's passport were seized from them while the were studying in former USSR and CZ. There are quite a few of similar people are now living in Czech/Slovakian republic as they were not allowed to return to Indonesia during the Suharto's regime.

 

[Nimbus]

I know you're not a fan of Suharto but didn't that start long before he was born, during the Dutch days?

Back during the Dutch days Indonesians were not in charge, except maybe a small class of nobles.

Right after independence the new republic was struggling, but at least there was a real democracy and an attempt at good governance. In 1959 Suharto was about to be court-martialed for smuggling by (then colonel) Ahmad Yani. Who was his accomplice? None other than Lim Sioe Liong a.k.a. Sudono Salim. It was rather convenient that Ahmad Yani was one of the generals kidnapped and shot in September 30, 1965.

The guy who was sidelined for corruption ended up at the top when most of the senior generals above him were misteriously kidnapped and killed. Coincidence?

 

[flavus]

Right after independence the new republic was struggling, but at least there was a real democracy and an attempt at good governance

To be fair democracy died before Suharto - it started with Sukarno's Guided Democracy which apparently (though not covered in most Indonesian history textbooks) was after other political parties freaked out that the Communists swept the local elections and so the national one was cancelled

 

[fastpitch17]

To be fair democracy died before Suharto - it started with Sukarno's Guided Democracy which apparently (though not covered in most Indonesian history textbooks) was after other political parties freaked out that the Communists swept the local elections and so the national one was cancelled

And there lies the answer to so many questions that may never be answered. (Not covered in mist Indonesian history textbooks) If any textbook or book that Indonesians have access too. So much never reported on let alone written somewhere. Reports on what may have happened are many times fabricated to keep the wrong polished to be a right. Indonesia will never know much of it's actual history because it is never written properly or his kept from them.

Suharto was a dictator set on enriching his family and grow powerful to do whatever he thought necassary to achieve that. The only good thing Suharto did was keep the islamist radicals in check.

 

[Nimbus]

To be fair democracy died before Suharto - it started with Sukarno's Guided Democracy which apparently (though not covered in most Indonesian history textbooks) was after other political parties freaked out that the Communists swept the local elections and so the national one was cancelled

Maybe today most history textbooks are different, but back when I was in school Suharto loved to boast that his “Orde Baru” government was better than Sukarno era “Demokrasi Terpimpin”. New Order supposedly brought elections back, although everybody knew the system was rigged. It was still guided democracy but with a shinier veneer of freedom.

It was sad that Sukarno turned to megalomania toward the end of his reign. If only the bookish Hatta was in charge, history would have been very different.

 

[Nimbus]

And there lies the answer to so many questions that may never be answered. (Not covered in mist Indonesian history textbooks) If any textbook or book that Indonesians have access too. So much never reported on let alone written somewhere. Reports on what may have happened are many times fabricated to keep the wrong polished to be a right. Indonesia will never know much of it's actual history because it is never written properly or his kept from them.

Suharto was a dictator set on enriching his family and grow powerful to do whatever he thought necassary to achieve that. The only good thing Suharto did was keep the islamist radicals in check.

Part of the problem is low interest in history. The field is viewed academically as dumping ground for people who are not good at science and engineering. It’s not possible to cover up everything 100%, especially today when people are more free to talk. However, this freedom means nothing when there are few historians digging for real stories and writing them down. When eyewitnesses pass away, their unwritten stories are lost forever.

I’m very interested in history, but I also know that I can’t make a living in the field. It doesn’t help that back then digging for truth was an activity hazardous to your health.

I personally feel that Suharto was two steps forward and one step back. He deserved some credit for developing Indonesia, to the point where our economy was actually ahead of China until the late 80s. The country went from having widespread famine to agricultural self sufficiency in two decades. The Keluarga Berencana program was a true success. It’s sad that Suharto’s structural corruption had to come with them.

 

[fastpitch17]

Part of the problem is low interest in history. The field is viewed academically as dumping ground for people who are not good at science and engineering. It’s not possible to cover up everything 100%, especially today when people are more free to talk. However, this freedom means nothing when there are few historians digging for real stories and writing them down. When eyewitnesses pass away, their unwritten stories are lost forever.

I’m very interested in history, but I also know that I can’t make a living in the field. It doesn’t help that back then digging for truth was an activity hazardous to your health.

I personally feel that Suharto was two steps forward and one step back. He deserved some credit for developing Indonesia, to the point where our economy was actually ahead of China until the late 80s. The country went from having widespread famine to agricultural self sufficiency in two decades. The Keluarga Berencana program was a true success. It’s sad that Suharto’s structural corruption had to come with them.

You will need to explain the success of Suharto's Keluarga Berencana program. This nation has had a population explosion with only recently recording a slowdown. Do you feel this growth all came after 88? Self sufficiency was maybe before the population growth and when nasi wasn't so much the every meal mainstay.

Indonesian history is a rare commodity if someone wants a good understanding if it. Indonesia do not like to put in print anything that may show negativity towards it. There are papers and reports that have been done from outside the nation by scholars and journalist that people can access but many of those get the thumbs down because they are not home grown so they can not be correct.

Find the history of the Japanese WWII occupation. Anything that talks about inhuman treatment towards Indonesian has seemed to disappear. I think that could be owed to Sukarno wanting to have the Japanese blessing and support for Independence. Indonesia sued the Dutch for mistreatment but never even mentioned Japan.

 

[Nimbus]

You will need to explain the success of Suharto's Keluarga Berencana program. This nation has had a population explosion with only recently recording a slowdown. Do you feel this growth all came after 88? Self sufficiency was maybe before the population growth and when nasi wasn't so much the every meal mainstay.

Indonesian history is a rare commodity if someone wants a good understanding if it. Indonesia do not like to put in print anything that may show negativity towards it. There are papers and reports that have been done from outside the nation by scholars and journalist that people can access but many of those get the thumbs down because they are not home grown so they can not be correct.

Find the history of the Japanese WWII occupation. Anything that talks about inhuman treatment towards Indonesian has seemed to disappear. I think that could be owed to Sukarno wanting to have the Japanese blessing and support for Independence. Indonesia sued the Dutch for mistreatment but never even mentioned Japan.

The population continues to grow, but at an ever slower pace since around 1970.

The huge dip of rate change around 1964-1966 was obviously due to the massacres.

As for self sufficiency, Indonesia received an award from the FAO for surplus rice production in 1984. It was short lived, but it was achieved nonetheless.

Baca

Baca

museum.pertanian.go.id

This wasn’t repeated until recently by Jokowi from 2019 to 2021.

Swasembada Pangan Tercapai dengan Infrastruktur Pertanian yang Makin Baik

JAKARTA - Lembaga Internasional, Pusat penelitian beras dunia, International Rice...

psp.pertanian.go.id

Accounts of Japanese mistreatments don’t disappear, there’s just no interest to dig them up, because there’s very little interest in history overall. A book about the Mandor Incident was republished as recently as 2009, which was much more recent from the version I read in the 80s.

Peristiwa Mandor berdarah

On Mandor tragedy, massacre of thousands of people by Japanese troops in Mandor, Kalimantan Barat, Indonesia, June 28, 1944.

books.google.com

 

[pantaiema]

Maybe today most history textbooks are different, but back when I was in school Suharto loved to boast that his “Orde Baru” government was better than Sukarno era “Demokrasi Terpimpin”. New Order supposedly brought elections back, although everybody knew the system was rigged. It was still guided democracy but with a shinier veneer of freedom.

It was sad that Sukarno turned to megalomania toward the end of his reign. If only the bookish Hatta was in charge, history would have been very different.

This is the fact about Suharto New order

• All civil servants and people working for State owned enterprises would need to automatically choose a party which keep nominating Suharto e.g Golongan Karya ("Party of Functional Group). The number of people under this category are huge if compared to the population of people eligible to vote (e.g adult Indonesian people).
• All of head of villages, regents will need to have Golongan Karya (Party of Functional Group) to win in their territories. Otherwise they will be punished such as to be replaced, making it difficult for the member of their family to become a civil servant.
• In the general election and presidential candidate, there is always a single candidate. It begs the question what actually the people were voting in the general election ?
• The member of his family and inner cycle were doing business benefiting from facility, monopoly or hostile take over.
• Under his reign in Indonesia over three decades, Indonesia was either the most corrupt countries in the world or belongs to top ten most corrupt countries in the worlds.
• "the Father of Development" where in fact under his rule, Indonesia was still considered as a developing country with the income per capita was not much better than the least developed countries.
• What is written in the history book is severely manipulated seeing him as a hero. A good living example is testimony from living evidence from the video in post #105.
• The most manipulative history written in the history book in Indonesia in the effort to brainwash school children is the 1965 history. It is a coup d'etat but portraying him as a hero (see the response from BardAI and ChatGPT)
• Another manipulation in the history is "rice self sufficiency* seeing him as a hero.

What could be proud of this regime ?? Dictatorship, Great manipulator, Corruption, Collusion, Nepotism, Low Income per-capita ??

 

[Samoerai]

Soeharto deserved some credit for developing Indonesia, to the point where our economy was actually ahead of China until the late 80s.

Too bad he didn't had a vision regarding the infrastructure to support the growing economy and population ...

 

[harryopal1]

"...Accounts of Japanese mistreatments don’t disappear, there’s just no interest to dig them up, because there’s very little interest in history overall. A book about the Mandor Incident was republished as recently as 2009, which was much more recent from the version I read in the 80s.,,,"

It seems very little is taught in Japan about WW2 atrocities. It is only during this last 30 years or so that the reality of the brutal atrocities perpetrated against Australia's indigenous people has started to become widely known. In 2003 the then Australian Prime Minister rejected "black armband history" . Meaning, we don't want to know about this negative stuff. I suspect he also saw there would be demands for compensation and reparation.

 

[flavus]

Too bad he didn't had a vision regarding the infrastructure to support the growing economy and population ...

Beyond letting his family enrich themselves from infrastructure projects that is

Kala Mbak Tutut Main Jalan Tol dan Ngutang Rp 1,07 Triliun

Tiga perusahaan milik Mbak Tutut terkait utang dengan pemerintah. Ketiganya adalah bisnis jalan tol.

www.cnbcindonesia.com

(I suspect the article author was being really sarcastic in his choice of adjectives, by the way)

 

[Bob]

The population continues to grow, but at an ever slower pace since around 1970.

View attachment 3217

The huge dip of rate change around 1964-1966 was obviously due to the massacres.

As for self sufficiency, Indonesia received an award from the FAO for surplus rice production in 1984. It was short lived, but it was achieved nonetheless.

Baca

Baca

museum.pertanian.go.id

This wasn’t repeated until recently by Jokowi from 2019 to 2021.

Swasembada Pangan Tercapai dengan Infrastruktur Pertanian yang Makin Baik

JAKARTA - Lembaga Internasional, Pusat penelitian beras dunia, International Rice...

psp.pertanian.go.id

Accounts of Japanese mistreatments don’t disappear, there’s just no interest to dig them up, because there’s very little interest in history overall. A book about the Mandor Incident was republished as recently as 2009, which was much more recent from the version I read in the 80s.

Peristiwa Mandor berdarah

On Mandor tragedy, massacre of thousands of people by Japanese troops in Mandor, Kalimantan Barat, Indonesia, June 28, 1944.

books.google.com

The dip in population rate in the mid 60's can also be attributed to the economy being the worst it ever was. People were starving.

 

[Samoerai]

Beyond letting his family enrich themselves from infrastructure projects that is

That's a different vision .. lol.

 

[Bob]

Too bad he didn't had a vision regarding the infrastructure to support the growing economy and population ...

Fact is he did. His family gained a lot in the process but things got done.

 

[Samoerai]

Fact is he did.

Which infrastructure projects .. the "rakyat" benefit from, then and today? Is there a main road from West to East Java?