No Indonesian Culture

Beyond letting his family enrich themselves from infrastructure projects that is


(I suspect the article author was being really sarcastic in his choice of adjectives, by the way)
Until now the legacy of the former Indonesian president Suharto as a master of manipulation still thrive and inherited to their children, his grandchildren. Just look at the recent dispute between The Indonesian government with CMNP (PT Citra Marga Nusaphala Persada) featuring Yusuf Hamka (YH) as a puppet. They are using religious sentiment featuring a generous millionaire Yusuf Hamka portraying him as a good Chinese Muslim. YH shares in this CMNP is lower than 6%.

In fact the debt is multiple trillions as part of the bank Yama bailout and this has never been paid. The CMNP the board of directors or board of commissioners are Tutut children (Suharto's grand daughter, Danty Indriastuty). But later when the case emerged, their names have mysteriously disappeared.

For the first video minutes 00:00 - 02.03
For the second video refer to the presented fact/evidence rather than the person himself.
 
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Which infrastructure projects .. the "rakyat" benefit from, then and today? Is there a main road from West to East Java?
Daendels had De Groote Postweg (The Great Postroad) built in 1808-1811, connecting West-Java to East-Java and Batavia to Soerabaja.
 
Which infrastructure projects .. the "rakyat" benefit from, then and today? Is there a main road from West to East Java?
Roads, healthcare, markets, refineries, telecommications, airports, harbor facilities, etc. Infrastructure benefits the people, directly or indirectly, pretty much by definition.
 
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Roads, healthcare, markets, refineries, telecommications, airports, harbor facilities, etc. Infrastructure benefits the people, directly or indirectly, pretty much by definition.
The quote was about Soeharto .. what vision he had about building infrastructure that benefits us today in Indonesia?
 
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  • The most manipulative history written in the history book in Indonesia in the effort to brainwash school children is the 1965 history. It is a coup d'etat but portraying him as a hero (see the response from BardAI and ChatGPT)

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Actually, he did stop the 30th September Coup, and took over the country. Chat GPT is not a reference.
 
Actually, he did stop the 30th September Coup, and took over the country. Chat GPT is not a reference.
I agree that citing generative AI search engines is not a good idea, but the G30S aftermath is a bloody countercoup at best, and a purge and mass murder most likely (and there are reasonable questions about Suharto's actual involvement)

 
This is the fact about Suharto New order
  • All civil servants and people working for State owned enterprises would need to automatically choose a party which keep nominating Suharto e.g Golongan Karya ("Party of Functional Group). The number of people under this category are huge if compared to the population of people eligible to vote (e.g adult Indonesian people).
  • All of head of villages, regents will need to have Golongan Karya (Party of Functional Group) to win in their territories. Otherwise they will be punished such as to be replaced, making it difficult for the member of their family to become a civil servant.
  • In the general election and presidential candidate, there is always a single candidate. It begs the question what actually the people were voting in the general election ?
  • The member of his family and inner cycle were doing business benefiting from facility, monopoly or hostile take over.
  • Under his reign in Indonesia over three decades, Indonesia was either the most corrupt countries in the world or belongs to top ten most corrupt countries in the worlds.
  • "the Father of Development" where in fact under his rule, Indonesia was still considered as a developing country with the income per capita was not much better than the least developed countries.
  • What is written in the history book is severely manipulated seeing him as a hero. A good living example is testimony from living evidence from the video in post #105.
  • The most manipulative history written in the history book in Indonesia in the effort to brainwash school children is the 1965 history. It is a coup d'etat but portraying him as a hero (see the response from BardAI and ChatGPT)
  • Another manipulation in the history is "rice self sufficiency* seeing him as a hero.
What could be proud of this regime ?? Dictatorship, Great manipulator, Corruption, Collusion, Nepotism, Low Income per-capita ??

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As a guy who was actually in the MPR/DPR complex protesting Suharto on the day he resigned, I’m not eager to praise him. However, I believe in historical accuracy above ideology.

Suharto is a mixed story. There is no denying that he was responsible for between 200K to 3 million deaths (Sarwo Edhie Wibowo’s numbers) of accused PKI members, and his corruption was legendary. However, he skimmed from a largely working economy. As bad as Indonesia was, it still wasn’t as bad as Venezuela, or Zimbabwe, or even the Philippines. He wasn’t great, but on the grand scheme of things Indonesia could have gotten much worse. A lot of Indonesians would hate me for saying this, but if Sukarno stayed in power for much longer, Indonesia could have been a failed state.

Under a more competent ruler Indonesia would have been more successful economically than Malaysia. Instead it’s just a mediocre state, but not a failed one.
 
A lot of Indonesians would hate me for saying this, but if Sukarno stayed in power for much longer, Indonesia could have been a failed state.
Agreed, too many people seem to think either/or - if they hate the New Order regime then Sukarno must be great, and if they hate the current era then it must have been better under "Bapak" 😞
 
Daendels had De Groote Postweg (The Great Postroad) built in 1808-1811, connecting West-Java to East-Java and Batavia to Soerabaja.
In The Netherlands we call the main infrastructure facilities, like dykes, bridges, roads and waterways ... "kunstwerken" (= great pieces of art). A statement of 'pride'. See the link "Working to make the Netherlands safe, secure, attractive and accessible for all." The department "Rijkswaterstaat" has been responsible for road and water since 1798.


 
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A lot of Indonesians would hate me for saying this, but if Sukarno stayed in power for much longer, Indonesia could have been a failed state.
To be frank, I'm always amazed how Sukarno would get off scot free in these kinds of discussions and nobody would say anything about inflation reaching 500% (https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiperinflasi_Indonesia_1963-1965). There's a lot wrong about Suharto but he got it right that Indonesia had to focus on the economy when he first took over.

As for the G30S, I'm waiting for historians to officially say that it was a mess. The whole "trying to pinpoint a single mastermind" exercise usually only reveals the political agenda or the biases of the person trying to make the argument.
 
Unfortunately, while the theory of Marxist/Leninism suggest the development of the workers' paradise. the reality has been that what follows is elitism, corruption, loss of freedoms and degeneration into totalitarianism. Sadly, had he remained in power, it is probable that even had Sukarno not followed the negative trends of Marxist/ Leninism no doubt the US would have sought to destroy the economy as they did with Cuba and the CIA would have employed the range of devious if not evil devices employed anywhere American interests are seen to be endangered. It is well established the CIA was much involved in the purge of the left by Suharto.

As for evaluating the merits of achievements of extreme right or leftwing states, well Facist Mussolini was praised for having the trains run on time. And there is evidently still nostalgia for Hitler, Pinochet, Franco and Stalin. We humans are a complicated lot. No wonder Aliens just flash by in their flying saucers and tend not to stay.
1688351159480.png
 
Unfortunately, while the theory of Marxist/Leninism suggest the development of the workers' paradise. the reality has been that what follows is elitism, corruption, loss of freedoms and degeneration into totalitarianism. Sadly, had he remained in power, it is probable that even had Sukarno not followed the negative trends of Marxist/ Leninism no doubt the US would have sought to destroy the economy as they did with Cuba and the CIA would have employed the range of devious if not evil devices employed anywhere American interests are seen to be endangered. It is well established the CIA was much involved in the purge of the left by Suharto.

As for evaluating the merits of achievements of extreme right or leftwing states, well Facist Mussolini was praised for having the trains run on time. And there is evidently still nostalgia for Hitler, Pinochet, Franco and Stalin. We humans are a complicated lot. No wonder Aliens just flash by in their flying saucers and tend not to stay.
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What do you mean about following the negative trends, not going full red, going full red but with a more utopian governance, or something else?
Don't forget the British and Australians in your list of evil manipulators.
 
What do you mean about following the negative trends, not going full red, going full red but with a more utopian governance, or something else?
Don't forget the British and Australians in your list of evil manipulators.
The negative trends were, as I said, elitism, corruption, loss of freedoms and degeneration into totalitarianism. And no, I certainly have not forgotten the British and Australian governments which were also passionate with their anti Communist activities. Australia was also eager to turn a blind eye to the events as they unfolded in East Timor. There is evidence that Australian monitoring of Indonesian army communications during that period of occupation and terror was also something that the Whitlam government did not want to know about.
 
Unfortunately, while the theory of Marxist/Leninism suggest the development of the workers' paradise. the reality has been that what follows is elitism, corruption, loss of freedoms and degeneration into totalitarianism.
Marxism/Leninism does not degenerate into totalitarianism. It is by definition a totalitarian system.
 
Marxist/Leninsim was not by definition a totalitarian system. Lenin early on praised the nature of democracy and Stalin claimed the Soviet Union had genuine democracy while the United States had fake democracy. There were democratic institutions established in Russia while in practice the nature of the Russian political system soon became undemocratic. However, I don't want to split hairs. Many Communist countries claim to be democratic.

In 1945 Ho Chi Minh, declared Vietnam's independence under the new name of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (DRVN) in a speech that invoked the United States Declaration of Independence and the French Revolution's Declaration of the Rights ...

I was able to visit Vietnam shortly after the end of the war and learned what the reality of a Communist government meant as a way of life. I soon understood why so many Vietnamese risked their lives in trying to get out of the country.
 
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The negative trends were, as I said, elitism, corruption, loss of freedoms and degeneration into totalitarianism. And no, I certainly have not forgotten the British and Australian governments which were also passionate with their anti Communist activities. Australia was also eager to turn a blind eye to the events as they unfolded in East Timor. There is evidence that Australian monitoring of Indonesian army communications during that period of occupation and terror was also something that the Whitlam government did not want to know about.
Yes those are common detriments when a country gets a Marxist / communist government. But as Indonesia had not gone communist under Sukarno, I was trying to figure out if you were saying the US and allies would have continued their efforts against him even if he reined in the local reds.
Had he joined or moved closer to joining the bloc then yes Uncle Sam and buds would have taken aggressive action regardless of how benevolent the government may have been. After all their priority was access to markets and supply sources.
 

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