No Indonesian Culture

[harryopal1]

Yes those are common detriments when a country gets a Marxist / communist government. But as Indonesia had not gone communist under Sukarno, I was trying to figure out if you were saying the US and allies would have continued their efforts against him even if he reined in the local reds.
Had he joined or moved closer to joining the bloc then yes Uncle Sam and buds would have taken aggressive action regardless of how benevolent the government may have been. After all their priority was access to markets and supply sources.

I do think the US would have moved to undermine Sukarno had he not been deposed. This was a period when there was a kind of holy war mentality in the US where there was seen to be a danger that Communism would sweep across many developing and underdeveloped countries,. The US was funding military dictatorships which were actively engaged with torturing and disappearing perceived leftist enemies.

(Sorry. I had written, "... undermine Suharto" when I meant Sukarno. Now edit corrected.)

 

[Bob]

I do think the US would have moved to undermine Suharto had he not been deposed. This was a period when there was a kind of holy war mentality in the US where there was seen to be a danger that Communism would sweep across many developing and underdeveloped countries,. The US was funding military dictatorships which were actively engaged with torturing and disappearing perceived leftist enemies.

Yes the Dulles brothers were a bane to the planet. Maybe they had good intentions but their methods and the extent of their actions were ultimately counterproductive.

 

[harryopal1]

Yes the Dulles brothers were a bane to the planet. Maybe they had good intentions but their methods and the extent of their actions were ultimately counterproductive.

That depends upon how you define "good intentions." They were greedy vicious men determined to protect the interests of the United Fruit Company by whatever means were necessary. They epitomized the ugly side of American imperialism and capitalistic greed.

 

[Nimbus]

I do think the US would have moved to undermine Sukarno had he not been deposed. This was a period when there was a kind of holy war mentality in the US where there was seen to be a danger that Communism would sweep across many developing and underdeveloped countries,. The US was funding military dictatorships which were actively engaged with torturing and disappearing perceived leftist enemies.

(Sorry. I had written, "... undermine Suharto" when I meant Sukarno. Now edit corrected.)

What do you mean by “would have”? The CIA was actively moving against Sukarno because he was viewed as left-leaning or at least not hostile enough to communists. The Dutch loved to paint the Indonesian independence movement as communist in nature.

Allen Lawrence Pope - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This was the time when USA toppled democratic leaders like Iran’s Mosadegh while supporting dictators like Cuba’s Batista.

 

[centurion]

Marxist/Leninsim was not by definition a totalitarian system. Lenin early on praised the nature of democracy and Stalin claimed the Soviet Union had genuine democracy while the United States had fake democracy.

You have never heard of the dictatorship of the proletariat? You should study more deeply communism and Marxism/Leninism/Maoism.

You have the Soviet Union as a perfect example.

 

[Samoerai]

Another culture you often find as part of Asian traditions, if you invite someone for a meeting, even it is not a business meeting, you are generally obliged to provide meals. Otherwise you will be seen as stingy, rude.

I just heard a story a couple of days ago from 2 (single) female doctors.

They went to Italy for vacation. Over there they were invited by two Italian men for a picnic.
The doctors were very disappointed, they told me, because the men didn't take them for dinner to a restaurant. I asked "What about the picnic .. no food?" No, they said, only wine and some olives.
The doctors' conclusion: "Italian men are very stingy".

Well, I am not Italian. But, from what I know in general in Italy. A picnic is considered more romantic then a dinner in a restaurant. When it's summer, people are more outdoor and have activities. No food during the picnic? Yes, that surprised me too, but in general Italian men are considered 'mama's boys' ... totally not about preparing dinner. And the wine? That proofs .. Western culture is a drinking culture ...

 

[flavus]

I just heard a story a couple of days ago from 2 (single) female doctors.

They went to Italy for vacation. Over there they were invited by two Italian men for a for a picnic.
The doctors were very disappointed, they told me, because the men didn't take them for dinner to a restaurant. I asked "What about the picnic .. no food?" No, they said, only wine and some olives.
The doctors' conclusion: "Italian men are very stingy".

Well, I am not Italian. But, from what I know in general in Italy. A picnic is considered more romantic then a dinner in a restaurant. When it's summer, people are more outdoor and have activities. No food during the picnic? Yes, that surprised me too, but in general Italian men are considered 'mama's boys' ... totally not about preparing dinner. And the wine? That proofs .. Western culture is a drinking culture ...

Flipping the table, I wonder what the Italian me think about the doctors. Did they show up empty handed?

 

[harryopal1]

Picnic traditions vary from place to place. In Australia if someone invites you for a picnic you would assume they were providing food and drink but nonetheless you would arrive with a contribution be it a bowl of salad, fruit or wine. It seems probable the Italian men assumed the women would bring the food.

 

[Samoerai]

Picnic traditions vary from place to place. In Australia if someone invites you for a picnic you would assume they were providing food and drink but nonetheless you would arrive with a contribution be it a bowl of salad, fruit or wine. It seems probable the Italian men assumed the women would bring the food.

Maybe .. bringing the food would be a logical expectation, if those doctors would be Italian. In Italy it would be a challenge for the Indonesian doctors to organize the food, not speaking the language (in Italy not a lot of people speak English). And the descriptions on all the packages in the supermarket are in Italian. Not easy, is my own experience.

Definitely ... it is a culture clash.

 

[harryopal1]

Maybe .. bringing the food would be a logical expectation, if those doctors would be Italian. In Italy it would be a challenge for the Indonesian doctors to organize the food, not speaking the language (in Italy not a lot of people speak English). And the descriptions on all the packages in the supermarket are in Italian. Not easy, is my own experience.

Definitely ... it is a culture clash.

I daresay the doctors must eat despite supermarket problems with items in a different language. Had the doctors arrived with some kind of Indonesian dishes I imagine the Italians would have been delighted. Can't help but wonder if the doctors came from well to do backgrounds where servants prepared all the food. But not so much a culture clash as rather a fizzle.

 

[Samoerai]

Maybe .. bringing the food would be a logical expectation, if those doctors would be Italian. In Italy it would be a challenge for the Indonesian doctors to organize the food, not speaking the language (in Italy not a lot of people speak English). And the descriptions on all the packages in the supermarket are in Italian. Not easy, is my own experience.

I daresay the doctors must eat despite supermarket problems with items in a different language. Had the doctors arrived with some kind of Indonesian dishes I imagine the Italians would have been delighted. Can't help but wonder if the doctors came from well to do backgrounds where servants prepared all the food. But not so much a culture clash as rather a fizzle.

Still .. knowing European culture .. a picnic is just about wine and some snacks .. it's "du pain, du vin ..et du boursin".

 

[serious_fun]

Yes the Dulles brothers were a bane to the planet.

Oh ja, those devils caused incalculable misery and death...they were even involved with the disastrous Versaille Conference in 1919!! The book entitled The Devil's Chessboard reveals a lot about them.

 

[pantaiema]

I just heard a story a couple of days ago from 2 (single) female doctors.

They went to Italy for vacation. Over there they were invited by two Italian men for a picnic.
The doctors were very disappointed, they told me, because the men didn't take them for dinner to a restaurant. I asked "What about the picnic .. no food?" No, they said, only wine and some olives.
The doctors' conclusion: "Italian men are very stingy".

Well, I am not Italian. But, from what I know in general in Italy. A picnic is considered more romantic then a dinner in a restaurant. When it's summer, people are more outdoor and have activities. No food during the picnic? Yes, that surprised me too, but in general Italian men are considered 'mama's boys' ... totally not about preparing dinner. And the wine? That proofs .. Western culture is a drinking culture ...

I think it is not just in Italy but anywhere in western countries. In any western country, if you go to a restaurant, bar/pub you are expected to pay for your own lunch, dinner. drinks . This is especially true if you are in similar standing e.g you could effort to pay for your own meals/drinks. Keep in mind they are female doctors, they are not students, or school children. The exception is when the people say they invite/treat you, such as in special occasions.

People could for instance invite other people for a barbecue if they have a garden especially in a summer day. But this does not take a lot of time to prepare and does not cost a lot of money. If the number of people are quite sizeable people will normally invite other people to contribute for instance to bring drinks, salads, etc.

Probably these Indonesian female doctors do not know that in Europe. typically Italians are not considered stingy. It is the Dutch people are well known for their frugality and stinginess.

 

[Samoerai]

I think it is not just in Italy but anywhere in western countries. In any western country, if you go to a restaurants, bars/pubs you are expected to pay for your own lunch, dinner. drinks . This is especially true if you are in similar standing e.g you could effort to pay for your own meals/drinks. Keep in mind they are female doctors, they are not students, or school children. The exception is when the people say they invite/treat you, such as in special occasions.

Probably these Indonesian female doctors do not know know that typically Italians are not considered stingy in Europe. It is the Dutch people are well known for their frugality, stinginess.

All true .. but the point I am trying to make is the differences in cultures .. "drinking culture" in Europe versus the "eating culture" in Indonesia. That's why I quoted you in the first place in post #149

 

[pantaiema]

All true .. but the point I am trying to make is the differences in cultures .. "drinking culture" in Europe versus the "eating culture" in Indonesia. That's why I quoted you in the first place in post #149

I agree with this. This is because drinking alcohol are very restrictive in Indonesia. But the natural barrier is the cost. Alcohol drinks are heavily taxed in Indonesia.

In western, unless it is specially booked for a special occasion, restaurants are not considered as a place to socialise, as you are not expected to stay there spending hours for chatting.

But since early 2000 there are a lot "kafe (café)" spring out in the major cities especially to cater for schoolmates reunion taking advantage the networking opportunity coming from the emergence of social media. But kafe in Indonesia are typically small restaurants where various drinks, juices are served.