Jokowi Rumored in Golkar Party Coup

[Samoerai]

Demonstation today ... will this be the starting point of revolusi?

Still going on ...

 

[Bob]

I agree to some extent, as many of those who graduate from these boarding schools are not the sharpest knife in the drawer. There is usually a reason they end up in such schools. After graduating, it is unlikely they can compete on equal footing with other students for spots in reputable state universities. Many are admitted due to political quotas. When people are struggling to make ends meet, and have nothing more productive to do, they will accept small amounts of pocket money to join street protests, mob, vandalism or take actions they believe align with their faith.

As mentioned earlier, this group successfully pressured the government to charge 'Ahok' with blasphemy. In other countries that are not governed by religious law, would something like this even be considered blasphemy? It might be thrown out by the court before proceedings even begin.

It is also important to note that some of their members are motivated by a sick ideology, not just financial incentives. For example, some have carried out suicide bombings. However, the most critical aspect is the direction set by their leaders. I have also provided a link in my previous post #14.

FPI: Perjuangkan Syariat Islam dalam UU Bukan Pelanggaran

Ketua FPI Jakarta Habib Muhsin Alatas mengatakan bahwa usaha memperjuangkan syariat Islam dalam perundang-undangan tak melanggar konstitusi.

www.cnnindonesia.com

"Kita memperjuangkan syariat Islam di dalam perundang-undangan secara konstitusional itu tidak ada halangan, bukan melanggar konstitusi," Kata Muhsin Alatas dalam konferensi pers Acara Milad HRS Center pertama di Hotel Balairung, Jakarta Timur, Selasa (3/9/2019).
"We are fighting for Islamic law in legislation constitutionally, there are no obstacles, it does not violate the constitution," said Muhsin Alatas in a press conference for the first HRS Center Milad Event at the Balairung Hotel, East Jakarta, Tuesday (3/9/2019).

This is their top leader, not the foot soldiers who are paid to engage in mob actions, vandalism, and demonstrations on the streets. Claiming that they have no aspiration to enforce sharia law in Indonesia in my opinion is absurd.

Where do the boarding school students fit in to that narrative and when did any FPI members commit suicide bombings? It seems like you're mixing unrelated things to make them sound scary.

 

[pantaiema]

Where do the boarding school students fit in to that narrative and when did any FPI members commit suicide bombings? It seems like you're mixing unrelated things to make them sound scary.

The links are already posted in Post #14
"Head of Public Relations of the Indonesian National Police, Brigadier General Rusdi Hartono, said that the 19 terrorist suspects from the Jamaah Ansharut Daulah (JAD) Makassar group were members of the Islamic Defenders Front (FPI)."

"The Spoke man of National Police Commission (Benny Mamoto) Reveals 37 Defendants of Terrorism have FPI Background."

Some FPI leaders, such as their ex-leader Habib Rizieq, run "pesantren," a traditional religious boarding schools in Indonesia where some children may be indoctrinated. The current FPI leader, Muhsin Alatas, also run a big traditional religious boarding school. This is why they have followers who can be easily swayed by religious sentiment, along with a packed lunch and small pocket money.

Kumpulan Berita Pesantren Fpi Terbaru Dan Terkini

Berita Pesantren Fpi: Harusnya yang disomasi pihak yang menjual tanah.

www.suara.com

 

[Hawk256]

The links are already posted in Post #14
"Head of Public Relations of the Indonesian National Police, Brigadier General Rusdi Hartono, said that the 19 terrorist suspects from the Jamaah Ansharut Daulah (JAD) Makassar group were members of the Islamic Defenders Front (FPI)."

"The Spoke man of National Police Commission (Benny Mamoto) Reveals 37 Defendants of Terrorism have FPI Background."

Some FPI leaders, such as their ex-leader Habib Rizieq, run "pesantren," a traditional religious boarding schools in Indonesia where some children may be indoctrinated. The current FPI leader, Muhsin Alatas, also run a big traditional religious boarding school. This is why they have followers who can be easily swayed by religious sentiment, along with a packed lunch and small pocket money.

Kumpulan Berita Pesantren Fpi Terbaru Dan Terkini

Berita Pesantren Fpi: Harusnya yang disomasi pihak yang menjual tanah.

www.suara.com

So the government said so. It must be true.

 

[pantaiema]

So the government said so. It must be true.

Interesting way of thinking. But Let us break this down step by step.

Indonesia, like many other countries, follows the principle of separation of powers, known in Trias Politica.

• Legislative Power: This branch is responsible for creating laws, overseeing the executive branch, and representing the interests of the citizens. In Indonesia, this role is fulfilled by the Parliament.
• Executive Power: This branch is tasked with implementing and enforcing laws, developing government policies, and managing the everyday operations of the state.
• Judicial Power: This is carried out by the Supreme Court and other judicial bodies, including judges, prosecutors, and both defence and prosecution lawyers.

All these branches are considered equal and operate independently of one another, as stated in the Constitution of Indonesia (UUD 1945).

Beside the fact mentioned in the earlier posts, Here are some facts about FPI and convicted terrorism:

• The Islamic Defenders Front (FPI) has been banned
• Several FPI members have been tried in court and convicted of terrorism. A notable case is that of "Munarman," the former Secretary-General of FPI.

Former FPI Senior Figure Munarman Convicted of Terrorism

His verdict came nearly a year after former FPI leader Rizieq Syihab was sentenced to four years in jail.

jakartaglobe.id

"Jakarta court on Wednesday declared a former secretary-general of hardline group Islamic Defenders Front, or FPI, guilty of terrorism and sentenced him to three years in prison." They have been convicted and seen by several independent bodies.

In civil cases, it might be easier for individuals to bribe others, but bribing everyone across three independent branches of government is next to impossible. The Indonesian judicial system maintains enough independence that it would be challenging to corrupt all levels of the system across three separate bodies in a coordinated manner. Although there have been instances of corruption in Indonesia's judicial system but this is mainly in the civil case. The fact that multiple independent bodies reviewed and upheld the convictions of FPI members, including Munarman, suggests that these decisions were not easily influenced by bribery or pressure from the executive branch.

 

[fastpitch17]

Interesting way of thinking. But Let us break this down step by step.

Indonesia, like many other countries, follows the principle of separation of powers, known in Trias Politica.

• Legislative Power: This branch is responsible for creating laws, overseeing the executive branch, and representing the interests of the citizens. In Indonesia, this role is fulfilled by the Parliament.
• Executive Power: This branch is tasked with implementing and enforcing laws, developing government policies, and managing the everyday operations of the state.
• Judicial Power: This is carried out by the Supreme Court and other judicial bodies, including judges, prosecutors, and both defence and prosecution lawyers.

All these branches are considered equal and operate independently of one another, as stated in the Constitution of Indonesia (UUD 1945).

Beside the fact mentioned in the earlier posts, Here are some facts about FPI and convicted terrorism:

• The Islamic Defenders Front (FPI) has been banned
• Several FPI members have been tried in court and convicted of terrorism. A notable case is that of "Munarman," the former Secretary-General of FPI.

Former FPI Senior Figure Munarman Convicted of Terrorism

His verdict came nearly a year after former FPI leader Rizieq Syihab was sentenced to four years in jail.

jakartaglobe.id

"Jakarta court on Wednesday declared a former secretary-general of hardline group Islamic Defenders Front, or FPI, guilty of terrorism and sentenced him to three years in prison." They have been convicted and seen by several independent bodies.

In civil cases, it might be easier for individuals to bribe others, but bribing everyone across three independent branches of government is far more difficult. The Indonesian judicial system maintains enough independence that it would be challenging to corrupt all levels of the system across three separate bodies in a coordinated manner. Although there have been instances of corruption in Indonesia's judicial system, especially in civil cases, the fact that multiple independent bodies reviewed and upheld the convictions of FPI members, including Munarman, suggests that these decisions were not easily influenced by bribery or pressure from the executive branch.

It is obvious you have no understanding of each of these branches of government in Indonesia. Just because (this it what it says) exist doesn't mean, this is how it's done. Each branch has a chain everything goes up. In the case of Judicial, there are the investigators who turn their work over to their superiors to approve and sign off on. It then goes to the AG to make determinations if the investigation was proper and the evidence exist. This could go back and forth numerous times until the AG is satisfied. Then all go before the judges who will determine guilt or not and what, it any penalties will be applied if there is a guilty verdict. Anywhere along this process things can change. Evidence can not be found or somehow disappears. Witnesses testimony gets thrown out. The AG ask for a sentence much lighter than another might get for the same crime. Allowing someone influencial to be replaced by their paid scapegoat. The entire case just goes quiet and is never heard about again. Not all work there way up the chain. Some work there way down. All have taken place here.

 

[Hawk256]

It is obvious you have no understanding of each of these branches of government in Indonesia. Just because (this it what it says) exist doesn't mean, this is how it's done. Each branch has a chain everything goes up. In the case of Judicial, there are the investigators who turn their work over to their superiors to approve and sign off on. It then goes to the AG to make determinations if the investigation was proper and the evidence exist. This could go back and forth numerous times until the AG is satisfied. Then all go before the judges who will determine guilt or not and what, it any penalties will be applied if there is a guilty verdict. Anywhere along this process things can change. Evidence can not be found or somehow disappears. Witnesses testimony gets thrown out. The AG ask for a sentence much lighter than another might get for the same crime. Allowing someone influencial to be replaced by their paid scapegoat. The entire case just goes quiet and is never heard about again. Not all work there way up the chain. Some work there way down. All have taken place here.

And then just like that, fashpitch17 and I are on the same page about something. What a wonderful world. Change focus to the US for second and look at all the times the blame was put on someone else for nefarious reasons and then they get caught with their pants down. The government said so makes me less likely to belive something given their history and that goes not only for Indonesia or the US but most world govermenets.

 

[Samoerai]

Still going on ...

Hari senin ... lagi

 

[pantaiema]

It is obvious you have no understanding of each of these branches of government in Indonesia.

Neither do I believe you know better than I do

And then just like that, fashpitch17 and I are on the same page about something. What a wonderful world. Change focus to the US for second and look at all the times the blame was put on someone else for nefarious reasons and then they get caught with their pants down. The government said so makes me less likely to belive something given their history and that goes not only for Indonesia or the US but most world governments.

We live in the real world, not a utopia. Democracy and the separation of powers (trias politica) are not an exact science; there is evidence they can be manipulated and abused.

For instance, in Indonesia, there is a history of manipulation within these three branches of power, during the Suharto rule like this example:

Election fraud

I used to hear that Suharto was the only candidate, and people would protest by "golput" aka golongan putih - leaving the ballot blank. I looked it up. The 2004 election was the first time the people voted directly for President.

www.expatindo.org

However, it comes down to the likelihood of abuse. If the chances of abuse are high (say, over 50%), then the system would be considered useless, and no country would adopt it or no political scientist would support it. Additionally, when such a system is abused, history shows that it is only a matter of time before the abuses are exposed or the system collapses. The fact that Indonesia is still using as mandated in the constitution, most democratic countries in the world still rely on this system, the systems speaks for itself. Is there really a better system than the trias politica for a country like Indonesia ?

And remember, based on the previous posts, we are discussing this in the context of The Islamic Defenders Front (FPI), based on the statement:
"So the government said so. It must be true."

Certainly not, This isn't an exact science, so there's always a possibility of misjudgement. But what are the odds that they are wrong? Common sense rules it is more reasonable to trust the police, the police commission, the court's decision, where evidence is presented and examined by both sides, rather than rely on a random people who offers no evidence or legal references apart from their personal interest. Moreover, the case has attracted attention from all three branches of government and millions of Indonesians, largely due to the role of social media. There is also still a possibility that the case could be reopened if new evidence surfaces that might overturn the conviction.

There have also been recent instances in Indonesia where power has been abused, such as in the recent case regarding the age requirements for the President, Vice President, or Governor, the constitutional court. However, as mentioned earlier, when such abuses occur, history shows that they are eventually exposed, especially with the increased role of social media and greater press freedom in Indonesia today. Look at the public's reaction when the Constitutional Court ruled on the minimum age for President/Vice President or Governor. Is this reaction comparable to the response to the conviction of the FPI members?

 

[fastpitch17]

Neither do I believe you know better than I do



We live in the real world, not a utopia. Democracy and the separation of powers (trias politica) are not an exact science; there is evidence they can be manipulated and abused.

For instance, in Indonesia, there is a history of manipulation within these three branches of power, during the Suharto rule like this example:

Election fraud

I used to hear that Suharto was the only candidate, and people would protest by "golput" aka golongan putih - leaving the ballot blank. I looked it up. The 2004 election was the first time the people voted directly for President.

www.expatindo.org

However, it comes down to the likelihood of abuse. If the chances of abuse are high (say, over 50%), then the system would be considered useless, and no country would adopt it or no political scientist would support it. Additionally, when such a system is abused, history shows that it is only a matter of time before the abuses are exposed or the system collapses. The fact that Indonesia is still using as mandated in the constitution, most democratic countries in the world still rely on this system, the systems speaks for itself. Is there really a better system than the trias politica for a country like Indonesia ?

And remember, based on the previous posts, we are discussing this in the context of The Islamic Defenders Front (FPI), based on the statement:
"So the government said so. It must be true."

Certainly not, This isn't an exact science, so there's always a possibility of misjudgement. But what are the odds that they are wrong? Common sense rules it is more reasonable to trust the police, the police commission, the court's decision, where evidence is presented and examined by both sides, rather than rely on a random people who offers no evidence or legal references apart from their personal interest. Moreover, the case has attracted attention from all three branches of government and millions of Indonesians, largely due to the role of social media. There is also still a possibility that the case could be reopened if new evidence surfaces that might overturn the conviction.

There have also been recent instances in Indonesia where power has been abused, such as in the recent case regarding the age requirements for the President, Vice President, or Governor, the constitutional court. However, as mentioned earlier, when such abuses occur, history shows that they are eventually exposed, especially with the increased role of social media and greater press freedom in Indonesia today. Look at the public's reaction when the Constitutional Court ruled on the minimum age for President/Vice President or Governor. Is this reaction comparable to the response to the conviction of the FPI members?

Evidently you think you live in utopia because you certainly are not living in a real world here.

 

[Hawk256]

Certainly not, This isn't an exact science, so there's always a possibility of misjudgement. But what are the odds that they are wrong? Common sense rules it is more reasonable to trust the police, the police commission, the court's decision, where evidence is presented and examined by both sides, rather than rely on a random people who offers no evidence or legal references apart from their personal interest. Moreover, the case has attracted attention from all three branches of government and millions of Indonesians, largely due to the role of social media. There is also still a possibility that the case could be reopened if new evidence surfaces that might overturn the conviction.

I could name the cases one after another where the exact opposite is true and then you would just say they are exception. Go ahead and live in your little fantasy world where the govement only tells you tthe truth and only has your best interestets at heart.

 

[Shadrach]

I could name the cases one after another where the exact opposite is true and then you would just say they are exception. Go ahead and live in your little fantasy world where the govement only tells you tthe truth and only has your best interestets at heart.

Remember the Ministry of Truth, in 1984

 

[pantaiema]

I could name the cases one after another where the exact opposite is true and then you would just say they are exception. Go ahead and live in your little fantasy world where the govement only tells you tthe truth and only has your best interestets at heart.

A justice system, making judgement would be totally useless, ineffective if there were an obvious misjudgment rate of over 50%. This is because, the natural tendency dictates that an ordinary person, anyone without skill, any prior knowledge or evidence has a 50% chance of being correct by just guessing the outcome, similar to flipping a coin and randomly guessing heads or tails.

Now, consider that more than three million cases are decided in Indonesian courts each year. Can you find even a fraction of those say, one million, or even just 10% of that that were clearly misjudged? Let alone with more freedom in the press and the current role of social medias.

Let’s also not to forget the 'trias politica' principle adopted by Indonesia, as outlined in the constitution is widely used across the vast majority of democratic countries worldwide. This is also in the context of FPI (Islamic Defender Front) court ruling.
"So the government said so. It must be true."

I keep posing this question: Can you name a better system than the 'trias politica'? Anyone who could invent such a system would be written in history as having a similar standing to renowned political philosophers like John Locke or Montesquieu.

 

[Hawk256]

A justice system, making judgement would be totally useless, ineffective if there were an obvious misjudgment rate of over 50%. This is because, the natural tendency dictates that an ordinary person, anyone without skill, any prior knowledge or evidence has a 50% chance of being correct by just guessing the outcome, similar to flipping a coin and randomly guessing heads or tails.

Now, consider that more than three million cases are decided in Indonesian courts each year. Can you find even a fraction of those say, one million, or even just 10% of that that were clearly misjudged? Let alone with more freedom in the press and the current role of social medias.

Let’s also not to forget the 'trias politica' principle adopted by Indonesia, as outlined in the constitution is widely used across the vast majority of democratic countries worldwide. This is also in the context of FPI (Islamic Defender Front) court ruling.
"So the government said so. It must be true."

I keep posing this question: Can you name a better system than the 'trias politica'? Anyone who could invent such a system would be written in history as having a similar standing to renowned political philosophers like John Locke or Montesquieu.

It almost sounds like you want to argue just to hear yourself talk. I never said the majority or any percentage of cases were made up and/or fixed. It clearly happens and usually a group that mainstream government doesn't like ends up with blame. Do you realy think that it hasn't happened and won't contiue to happen for political reasons? Calling someone a terrorist or a child molester are the quickest ways to do so. Ask the guy that published 3D printed gun files against the US governments wish. In less that a month after posing them he was arrested in Japan by request of the US governement for child porn charges. If he had been a Muslim, it would have been terrorist. charges.

 

[Bad_azz]

It almost sounds like you want to argue just to hear yourself talk. I never said the majority or any percentage of cases were made up and/or fixed. It clearly happens and usually a group that mainstream government doesn't like ends up with blame. Do you realy think that it hasn't happened and won't contiue to happen for political reasons? Calling someone a terrorist or a child molester are the quickest ways to do so. Ask the guy that published 3D printed gun files against the US governments wish. In less that a month after posing them he was arrested in Japan by request of the US governement for child porn charges. If he had been a Muslim, it would have been terrorist. charges.

I have certain people on an ignore list for specific reasons & their propensity to spout non-stop unfounded drivel is one reason.
I know a fair bit about Indonesian politics/politicians and corruption , and prison. I know some of them personally.
I have certainly heard prisoners here use the arguments you & FP are making, about being scapegoats and standing in for higher ups etc.

 

[fastpitch17]

A justice system, making judgement would be totally useless, ineffective if there were an obvious misjudgment rate of over 50%. This is because, the natural tendency dictates that an ordinary person, anyone without skill, any prior knowledge or evidence has a 50% chance of being correct by just guessing the outcome, similar to flipping a coin and randomly guessing heads or tails.

Now, consider that more than three million cases are decided in Indonesian courts each year. Can you find even a fraction of those say, one million, or even just 10% of that that were clearly misjudged? Let alone with more freedom in the press and the current role of social medias.

Let’s also not to forget the 'trias politica' principle adopted by Indonesia, as outlined in the constitution is widely used across the vast majority of democratic countries worldwide. This is also in the context of FPI (Islamic Defender Front) court ruling.
"So the government said so. It must be true."

I keep posing this question: Can you name a better system than the 'trias politica'? Anyone who could invent such a system would be written in history as having a similar standing to renowned political philosophers like John Locke or Montesquieu.

I'll give you a number to run with. The Attorney General's Office has a 99% conviction rate. Amaizing. The same office is also known to have hung and dried cases that somehow just, poof, disappear. The police themselves seem to somehow lose evidence and investigation paperwork on a regular basis since they never got around to actually entering data into a computer.

It's Indonesia. It's who you know and how much money you are willing to part with that decides your legal path.

 

[harryopal1]

It is a problem in a society that does not want to restrict religious freedom or the right to express ideas and difficult to legislate against the blatant abuse of freedom. The history of most religions includes periods of love and tolerance and times of hate and oppression.

 

[Bad_azz]

I'll give you a number to run with. The Attorney General's Office has a 99% conviction rate. Amaizing. The same office is also known to have hung and dried cases that somehow just, poof, disappear. The police themselves seem to somehow lose evidence and investigation paperwork on a regular basis since they never got around to actually entering data into a computer.

It's Indonesia. It's who you know and how much money you are willing to part with that decides your legal path.

And who is higher up the food chain that wants you to take the rap for them

 

[Hawk256]

And who is higher up the food chain that wants you to take the rap for them

Probably a good pay day too for someone that doesn't have a lot of options. If you are lucky enough to actually get paid that is.

 

[pantaiema]

Do you realy think that it hasn't happened and won't contiue to happen for political reasons? Calling someone a terrorist or a child molester are the quickest ways to do so. Ask the guy that published 3D printed gun files against the US governments wish. In less that a month after posing them he was arrested in Japan by request of the US governement for child porn charges. If he had been a Muslim, it would have been terrorist. charges.

This is answered in Post #29
"Certainly not, This isn't an exact science, so there's always a possibility of misjudgement. But what are the odds that they are wrong? Common sense rules it is more reasonable to trust the police, the police commission, the court's decision, where evidence is presented and examined by both sides, rather than rely on a random people who offers no evidence or legal references apart from their personal interest."