Election fraud

[Bob]

I used to hear that Suharto was the only candidate, and people would protest by "golput" aka golongan putih - leaving the ballot blank.

I looked it up. The 2004 election was the first time the people voted directly for President.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

I realised that politicians here are different from in the West. They all try their hardest to get votes for parliament. But as soon as the results are in, they all line up to try and join the new president's coalition so that they can get ministerial seats, along with the limousines, flunkeys, allowances etc. that come with the position. Any principles they previously had are quickly forgotten. No-one wants to be in opposition, they are purely interested in their personal rewards.
I realised this while watching Surya Paloh and Prabowo shaking hands the other day.

 

[snpark]

Next you will be saying that people become politicians to help the people, not to become rich lol

I am yet to hear Taylor Swift say she just wants to be a musician and it is not about fame or money or btw please buy all my albums again I am only worth $500m and my ticket prices are $500 each

 

[pantaiema]

I looked it up. The 2004 election was the first time the people voted directly for President.

Good to learn and to understand the way the Indonesian president was elected during Suharto's rule. The change of Indonesia's general elections system after decades of abused of the constitution does not negate the reality of a single nominee being put forward in the People's Consultative Assembly (Majelis Permusyawaratan Rakyat or MPR).

During Suharto's rule, the method of becoming President in Indonesia (or Prime Minister in other nations) is different than those seen in other countries. In Europe for instance in DE, UK, FR among others, the Chancellors/Prime Ministers/Presidents are usually resumed by the leader of the party voted by the voters with the most seats in parliament. It was not like that in Indonesia.

In Indonesia before the system was changed, the president was nominated and elected through an indirect process by People's Consultative Assembly (MPR), rather than through direct elections by the People's Representative Council (DPR). While the DPR is formed by the member of parliament, who majority of them are elected by the voters, there are still reasonable number of members are directly appointed as well as mandatory voting for a particular party. It's essential to note the differences in the composition and selection process of the DPR and MPR. MPR membership are DPR + members who are not directly elected by voters but appointed. In fact, the number of members in the MPR at that time was twice that of the DPR, according to the regulations outlined in UU_No16_1969 and PP_No2_1976. If necessary, and without hesitation to state it bluntly, this ratio could easily be adjusted to whatever multiplier if needed by a manipulator.

Even in the People's Representative Council (DPR) the members were not just the one elected by voters, but in addition there were around 20% of DPR members were appointed directly from the Indonesian Police & Armed Forces (ABRI) which is literally picked up by him. Not to mention it is mandatory that ALL civil servants, civil servants pensioners and their family members to vote 'Golkar'. There were more than 5m civil servants; on the top of that civil servants pensioners and their family members. Compare that in percentage with the number of active voters (not to be compared with the whole Indonesian population). The role of the head of villages, subdistricts, regents, etc are making sure that Suharto's main political vehicle, the Working Group party (Golkar) win majority in those regions or they would be replaced.

During Suharto's rule, there was always only single presidential candidate put forward in People's Consultative Assembly (MPR). The composition of the membership of MPR, the role of 'golkar' and mandatory vote of all civil servants, the absence of multiple candidates and the lack of meaningful debate or voting in the MPR meant that Suharto's re-election was effectively almost guaranteed.

Many individuals with rational thinking understand that it's a manipulative system, but no one dares to spell it out. Who else could defeat a single candidate? As stated before Suharto downfall wasn't due to electoral defeat but rather the courage of democracy activists, some of whom paid with their own and their family lives.

 

[pantaiema]

I realised that politicians here are different from in the West. They all try their hardest to get votes for parliament. But as soon as the results are in, they all line up to try and join the new president's coalition so that they can get ministerial seats, along with the limousines, flunkeys, allowances etc. that come with the position. Any principles they previously had are quickly forgotten. No-one wants to be in opposition, they are purely interested in their personal rewards.
I realised this while watching Surya Paloh and Prabowo shaking hands the other day.

Even though the current general election system in Indonesia is still open for abuse manipulation especially with those who could be influenced by money, religious sentiments, etc; But at least, it is far better than the GE system under Suharto.

 

[atlantis]

I can't really see them bribing millions and millions of people.

I don't know 1 (one) person in my staff, close and extended family who did not receive an offer (and for the most accepted) of money for a vote, particularly for the DPR and DPR-D election. But not only hard cash, beras and other sembako also.

Since you had to vote for not only president/vice president but also DPR/DPD and DPRD votes have earnt a nice amount to many. Tim sukses of candidates raided every lingkungan a week or so prior election with their proposal and my province is not an exception.

Sometimes it has been done more insidiously. An example: A short time before the election (I think it was a month or so before election) 4 trucks entered the pasar at dawn FULL of karung of rica (cabe rawit) from Surabaya all marked with the photo of a candidate, name and color of his partai. At that time the rica we usually get from Gorontalo was 150K per kilo and it was taking a toll on every Manadonese who can't live without rica. The 4 trucks unloaded and started to sell at 60K per kg the rica to both traders and bystanders remembering them that it was a private operatin of candidate X from partai Y and that we should remember how good of a man he and his partai friends are the day of election.

A large majority of Indonesian have far less income than what the UMP is and Rp 100.000 (it was the average going rate for cash for vote for the last election where I live, with more wealthy candidate proposing 150K) is "an offer you can't refuse" when you are on such a low income. Also remember that it was Rp 100K per head and if the rumah tangga has 5 or 6 voters it's a total amount which makes more than a little sense.

The days before elections ALL my staff were joking about it and how much they get in money, rice, cooking oil...etc. They were happy, and to be honest I was happy for them. They have little political conscience and understanding and one can argue that "things will never change if we accept it" or "this is illegal...etc" but I was happy and I've encouraged them verbally to take as much as they can from the fat pigs.

I consider that Indonesian are usually loyal. They could take the money and vote for someone else but I think most didn't and voted for where the money came from. I've asked to a few of my staff about the outcome of their vote and the conversation usually went like that:
Me, jokingly: Hey Lita, ngana da pilih pa sapa?
Lita: PDI-P bapa. Dong da kase doi kwa.
All staff made a direct link to the money they received and their vote.
This is a casual conversation I probably had with dozens of other people of the same social status of my staff prior to the election in many different places I go daily like warehouses, pasar, offices...etc . The type of conversation where you exchange banalities about the weather or the price of rice.

In the weeks prior to election, even though it was not broadcasted on loudspeakers, there was no mystery of the amounts potentially given against votes.

For many people with a low income, the election of this DPR or this other one is not something which will change your life on the long run. People are pragmatic and understand that taking the money in exchange of a vote is improving THE day or week.

 

[Brian86]

Very insightful @atlantis So if they already received 100,000 from one candidate and then the opposition offers them 150,000, what do they do? Turn it down? Take both and vote for the 150 candidate?

 

[snpark]

Of course take it all
Then vote or don't for whoever you want

They can't track who you voted for or took money from since its illegal to buy votes and is canvassing funds anyway
So take whatever they offer

 

[pantaiema]

People said, they can't track who you voted for or who you took the money from ? While this assertion may be true to some extent, it doesn't necessarily reflect the beliefs or concerns of some voters; Just as some individuals still hold beliefs in witches could multiply their money, cure their diseases. There are segments of the voters, particularly in rural or remote areas, who susceptible to such things; let alone augmented with intimidation and coercion.

I've heard stories from the past, particularly during Suharto's era, where some people were led to believe, either fooled or coerced, that their ballot papers had been pre-marked.

In today's era, individuals who aren't technologically savvy or familiar with modern gadgets might be easily fooled by advancements like micro cameras, silent drone, etc. Additionally, the vigilance of campaign teams, such as the 'banser' squads, who keep watch over every corner of their respective regions, cannot be overlooked.

While there's undoubtedly a possibility of fraud case, I believe it's highly improbable that it could change the outcome of the president, even after considering that there is a need for a second round election due to the absence of a clear majority.

 

[snpark]

Yes maybe maybe they can track a vote/r but do they give out receipts for accepting 100rb to promise to vote for someone if that is illegal?
When I buy my cocaine I don't get a receipt or warranty lol
Or is it down like shopping vouchers? 100rb discount at Carrefour and they can work it out from the credit card payment?

 

[pantaiema]

Yes maybe maybe they can track a vote/r but do they give out receipts for accepting 100rb to promise to vote for someone if that is illegal?
When I buy my cocaine I don't get a receipt or warranty lol
Or is it down like shopping vouchers? 100rb discount at Carrefour and they can work it out from the credit card payment?

As it is illegal why would anyone in their right mind would want to do that ??. But people do not need a receipt to intimidate people, don't they, to make people feel guilty, especially those who do not even know their right.

 

[snpark]

Argh not you again nit picking and missing the point.

Here let me explain in English. Or you could re-read my whole post.

When they "pay" for your vote and you accept 100rb for vote for Mr Jones, do they write your name down in a book as receiving 100rb and check later who you voted for??
No! Of course not.
Why? Because it's illegal. That's my whole point.
So feel free to take any cash handouts. There cannot be any fallback because what they are doing is illegal! Are they going to arrest you because you didn't vote for Jones? Did you sign a contract? No!

Now however if they gave you a coupon for 100rb at Carrefour then maybe they can trace that back to your name through credit card etc.

But still. Then what? How to prove if you didn't vote for Jones? And so what? They can't arrest you for it. It's illegal

So like I said as another example, if you do something illegal do you keep records? Does the coke dealer give out receipts? No!

That's what I meant. It's an analogy. An example.

Stop taking everything so literally. I appreciate English isn't your first language so stop splitting hairs. You just stir things up to troll people and add nothing to the conversation in this case.

It's Ramadan. Be peaceful.

 

[pantaiema]

Argh not you again nit picking and missing the point.

Here let me explain in English. Or you could re-read my whole post.

When they "pay" for your vote and you accept 100rb for vote for Mr Jones, do they write your name down in a book as receiving 100rb and check later who you voted for??
No! Of course not.
Why? Because it's illegal. That's my whole point.
So feel free to take any cash handouts. There cannot be any fallback because what they are doing is illegal! Are they going to arrest you because you didn't vote for Jones? Did you sign a contract? No!

Now however if they gave you a coupon for 100rb at Carrefour then maybe they can trace that back to your name through credit card etc.

But still. Then what? How to prove if you didn't vote for Jones? And so what? They can't arrest you for it. It's illegal

So like I said as another example, if you do something illegal do you keep records? Does the coke dealer give out receipts? No!

That's what I meant. It's an analogy. An example.

Stop taking everything so literally. I appreciate English isn't your first language so stop splitting hairs. You just stir things up to troll people and add nothing to the conversation in this case.

It's Ramadan. Be peaceful.

Stop using wordplay with semantics. Did I imply anything to the contrary? Naturally, anyone would accept financial assistance, take it as much as they could possibly get for living expenses if it were offered to them. And what exactly am I trolling ??

 

[snpark]

Stop using wordplay with semantics. Did I imply anything to the contrary? Naturally, anyone would accept financial assistance, take it as much as they could possibly get for living expenses if it were offered to them. And what exactly am I trolling ??

You know what you are doing. Happy Easter

Stop editing your posts after you posted them as well

 

[serious_fun]

Argh not you again nit picking and missing the point.

[snip]

Stop taking everything so literally. I appreciate English isn't your first language so stop splitting hairs. You just stir things up to troll people and add nothing to the conversation in this case.

It's Ramadan. Be peaceful.

 

[pantaiema]

Argh not you again nit picking and missing the point.

Here let me explain in English. Or you could re-read my whole post.

When they "pay" for your vote and you accept 100rb for vote for Mr Jones, do they write your name down in a book as receiving 100rb and check later who you voted for??
No! Of course not.
Why? Because it's illegal. That's my whole point.
So feel free to take any cash handouts. There cannot be any fallback because what they are doing is illegal! Are they going to arrest you because you didn't vote for Jones? Did you sign a contract? No!

Now however if they gave you a coupon for 100rb at Carrefour then maybe they can trace that back to your name through credit card etc.

But still. Then what? How to prove if you didn't vote for Jones? And so what? They can't arrest you for it. It's illegal

So like I said as another example, if you do something illegal do you keep records? Does the coke dealer give out receipts? No!

That's what I meant. It's an analogy. An example.

Stop taking everything so literally. I appreciate English isn't your first language so stop splitting hairs.You just stir things up to troll people and add nothing to the conversation in this case.

It's Ramadan. Be peaceful.

I repeatedly inquire about what I'm supposedly trolling. Understanding the message doesn't require excessive scrutiny. Some individuals possess the ability to decipher messages even with limited information. By the way, I'm fluent in four languages, not to mention proficiency in low-level languages. How many languages do you speak before criticizing others' language abilities?

Regarding the notion of statements that "add nothing to the conversation," let's examine it from a different perspective. What's exactly the value in reiterating the obvious, such as the illegality of buying votes or engaging in bribery, that people won't provide receipts for such illicit transactions. But how many individuals in this forum require reminders of these basic facts?

In Indonesia, especially in rural regions as mentioned in post #29, this could pose a considerable probkem especially during the general election. Additionally, as previously highlighted by another member, Indonesians, particularly those with less education, are commonly acknowledged for their loyalty. Individuals who are unfamiliar with this cultural trait in Indonesia might need to learn more about Indonesian culture for a more integration.

 

[snpark]

English, British, Australian, Canadian, there is 4 for a start, then passable Arabic, Bahasa Indonesia, French, German, Spanish, Tagalog, Thai, Greek, Korean, Russian, and maybe a few others. But that is not the point.
Happy Easter bro

 

[harryopal1]

Endless TV coverage across the channels with the assertions of election fraud being heard by the court. My inadequacy with the language leaves me with little idea about where it is going. Is there a challenge about the legitimacy of Gibran's entitlement to stand as vice president? My impression is that whatever irregularities the numbers still stack up for Prabowo and I hate to think what would be the outcome of it led to a court order for another election.

A summary would be appreciated.

 

[MamangDudul]

English, British, Australian, Canadian, there is 4 for a start, then passable Arabic, Bahasa Indonesia, French, German, Spanish, Tagalog, Thai, Greek, Korean, Russian, and maybe a few others. But that is not the point.
Happy Easter bro

Did you have a girlfriend in all of these countries?

 

[snpark]

Did you have a girlfriend in all of these countries?

Lo siento no hablo Espanol. Pero comprende bastante

You should only worry if your GF speaks 10 languages lol