EV in Indonesia

[Hawk256]

I remember a professional photographer friend of mine in about 2005 saying that he would always use film, because digital just couldn't replace it. I guess the bosses of Kodak thought the same.

At a certain point there was a tipping point, from memory it was about 2007-9. After that, good luck in finding a film camera, film to put in it, a place to develop it etc.

EVs are not at that point yet, but it will come sooner than later, and is inevitable.

Photographers made the choice to go digital on the their own. Quite unlike EVs. the governments wern't pushing for and regulating for no more film cameras. So far the EV growth is directly related to them being forced out on the people.

 

[Balifrog]

Photographers made the choice to go digital on the their own. Quite unlike EVs. the governments wern't pushing for and regulating for no more film cameras. So far the EV growth is directly related to them being forced out on the people.

Spot on ! When horse carriage were being replaced by automobiles, nobody issued a law banning horse carriages in 5 or 10 years !

 

[Helpful Herbert]

You can't force someone to buy a car. Even with a govt discount on the tax (which may not last), it is still a huge investment for most people. Changing your camera is a few hundred dollars max, changing your car is $10k-$20k plus. No-one will do it unless it makes sense for them, and at some point the EVs will be so far ahead of ICE cars the decision will be obvious. Another interesting stat is that less than 1% of people that buy EVs ever go back to an ICE car.

 

[Balifrog]

Another interesting stat is that less than 1% of people that buy EVs ever go back to an ICE car.

Sorry, that's the Teslarati "poll", not really neutral !

Study reveals less than 1% of EV owners wish to switch back to ICE

A recent study from the Global EV Drivers Alliance (GEVA) has determined that less than 1% of electric vehicle drivers wish to switch back to driving a gasoline or diesel-powered car. GEVA’s study is quite extensive, as it involved 23,254 respondents across 18 countries. These include Austria...

www.teslarati.com

Plenty other polls mention between 20 and 40 % !

EV owners eyeing gas

Across Europe, 19 percent of electric vehicle owners are likely or very likely to switch back to a traditional combustion engine vehicle, according to a McKinsey Mobility Consumer Pulse Survey.

www.mckinsey.com

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/25/ev-owners-want-to-buy-gas-cars-again.html

Always check several sources.

And don't forget HERTZ reversing it's "go E.V." policy ....

Hertz Will Shrink Electric Fleet After Being Burned by Tesla’s Price Cuts (Published 2024)

The rental car company blamed the sharp drop in the value of electric vehicles and higher repair costs for its decision to sell 20,000 cars.

www.nytimes.com

Why Hertz is dropping thousands of electric cars from its fleet

Hertz is selling off 20,000 EVs in the US, citing their higher repair costs. It'll buy more combustion-powered vehicles instead.

www.carexpert.com.au

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Interesting!
One thing I am concerned about is mati lampu. Imagine you are driving along and there is a mati lampu. Everything switches off, you can't open the door or windows or do anything. Is it possible that could happen? Or is there a manual override, at least to get out of the car?

 

[Shadrach]

Sorry, that's the Teslarati "poll", not really neutral !

Study reveals less than 1% of EV owners wish to switch back to ICE

A recent study from the Global EV Drivers Alliance (GEVA) has determined that less than 1% of electric vehicle drivers wish to switch back to driving a gasoline or diesel-powered car. GEVA’s study is quite extensive, as it involved 23,254 respondents across 18 countries. These include Austria...

www.teslarati.com

Plenty other polls mention between 20 and 40 % !

EV owners eyeing gas

Across Europe, 19 percent of electric vehicle owners are likely or very likely to switch back to a traditional combustion engine vehicle, according to a McKinsey Mobility Consumer Pulse Survey.

www.mckinsey.com

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/25/ev-owners-want-to-buy-gas-cars-again.html

Always check several sources.

And don't forget HERTZ reversing it's "go E.V." policy ....

Hertz Will Shrink Electric Fleet After Being Burned by Tesla’s Price Cuts (Published 2024)

The rental car company blamed the sharp drop in the value of electric vehicles and higher repair costs for its decision to sell 20,000 cars.

www.nytimes.com

Why Hertz is dropping thousands of electric cars from its fleet

Hertz is selling off 20,000 EVs in the US, citing their higher repair costs. It'll buy more combustion-powered vehicles instead.

www.carexpert.com.au

This will change in time when the cost of fossil fuels skyrocket. We are at the mercy of the petrochemical companies. Like someone said before. No one imagined camera's with film would be outdated by digital camera's.
It is only a matter time, and it won't come too soon. Gasoline, and Diesel engines are inefficient and outdated. Plus they are bad for US, and The Planet.
Just look at photos of major cities around the world, when the smog is so thick, you can't breathe. How can people support this?

 

[centurion]

Interesting!
One thing I am concerned about is mati lampu. Imagine you are driving along and there is a mati lampu. Everything switches off, you can't open the door or windows or do anything. Is it possible that could happen? Or is there a manual override, at least to get out of the car?

What is mati lampu?

 

[Hawk256]

This will change in time when the cost of fossil fuels skyrocket. We are at the mercy of the petrochemical companies. Like someone said before. No one imagined camera's with film would be outdated by digital camera's.
It is only a matter time, and it won't come too soon. Gasoline, and Diesel engines are inefficient and outdated. Plus they are bad for US, and The Planet.
Just look at photos of major cities around the world, when the smog is so thick, you can't breathe. How can people support this?

So we are much better off poisioning the earth with strip mining hazardous materials and then looking for a place to dump all the terrible chemicals later? I know you will say but recycling and that will help some but look at the history of plastics recycling. No where near the reality of what was promised. You don't like nuclear because of hazardous waste but the poison leaching batteries are fine?

 

[Shadrach]

So we are much better off poisioning the earth with strip mining hazardous materials and then looking for a place to dump all the terrible chemicals later? I know you will say but recycling and that will help some but look at the history of plastics recycling. No where near the reality of what was promised. You don't like nuclear because of hazardous waste but the poison leaching batteries are fine?

I don't understand why you would think, that I think, poisonous chemicals leaching into the Earth are fine, or strip mining hazardous materials are ok. I have repeatedly been saying, I would like all these chemicals, Nuclear, and petroleum products stopped.
I don't understand why you and others seem to be defending the petrochemical industry? I am only suggesting we come up with cleaner alternatives. Please let's hear your ideas for a better tomorrow?
So far, All I've been hearing, is several people criticizing me for wanting a better way, but not offering anything new, and fresh, and clean. So let's hear it!

 

[Hawk256]

I don't understand why you would think, that I think, poisonous chemicals leaching into the Earth are fine, or strip mining hazardous materials are ok. I have repeatedly been saying, I would like all these chemicals, Nuclear, and petroleum products stopped.
I don't understand why you and others seem to be defending the petrochemical industry? I am only suggesting we come up with cleaner alternatives. Please let's hear your ideas for a better tomorrow?
So far, All I've been hearing, is several people criticizing me for wanting a better way, but not offering anything new, and fresh, and clean. So let's hear it!

At the current time, EVs with their battery technology are not where they need to be to be practical and certainly isn't any safer for the environment. Dangerous in different ways. Going EV doesn't benefit the envioment as much as peple like to think and getting your power from coal to change the EV is likely worse in the long run that an ICE. Even if you were to break even with damage, it will be time to buy a new battery and start the dance all over again.

I'm not defending the petro industry but it is what we have and has been prover for over 100 years. Modern made ICEs are much less polluting than they were 10-20 years ago. Maybe there something right around the corner but I'm not betting on current EVs to save us.

My ideas for a cleaner future involve nuclear powered generators so I'm not sure you would listen to my plan anyway. The radioactive waste from a proper designed and functioning nuclear plant is minuscule. But what about the safety? So far every problem that has resulted in irradiation were due to non safe operation (bypassing safety checks) or by a unsafe design and building process of the facility. Every single one COULD have been easily prevented.

 

[John indonesia]

Spot on ! When horse carriage were being replaced by automobiles, nobody issued a law banning horse carriages in 5 or 10 years !

True. The car took a while to become normal, but I understand Ford did the job with the Model T.
I'm assured they manufactured the first reliable car the masses could afford, and the rest is history.

Small e-bikes like mine are cost efficient and effective transport so they are getting more and more popular. You can buy a simple bike that has enough range and speed to work well for most people, and they seem too start at 4 million or so.
That can't be said of EV cars at the moment.
When battery tech improves, and a (probably) Chinese company produces a Rp 100 million EV that works reasonably well, the landscape will change.
It's just a matter of time.

 

[harryopal1]

Interesting!
One thing I am concerned about is mati lampu. Imagine you are driving along and there is a mati lampu. Everything switches off, you can't open the door or windows or do anything. Is it possible that could happen? Or is there a manual override, at least to get out of the car?

I have always preferred wind down windows to elecric wind down for that very reason. I wonder how EVs fare in flood conditions. There are now people selling special devices for smashing car windows in the event of being trapped in a car with failed electrics. If you watch local TV there was footage this week of a car being caught on a flooded crossway and then the water swept the car over the edge and it floated away upside down. I haven't heard what became of the driver or passengers if there were more than one person.

 

[Balifrog]

So we are much better off poisioning the earth with strip mining hazardous materials and then looking for a place to dump all the terrible chemicals later? I know you will say but recycling and that will help some but look at the history of plastics recycling. No where near the reality of what was promised. You don't like nuclear because of hazardous waste but the poison leaching batteries are fine?

A short review of consequences of mining...
Mentions Indonesia as well

 

[fastpitch17]

I don't understand why you would think, that I think, poisonous chemicals leaching into the Earth are fine, or strip mining hazardous materials are ok. I have repeatedly been saying, I would like all these chemicals, Nuclear, and petroleum products stopped.
I don't understand why you and others seem to be defending the petrochemical industry? I am only suggesting we come up with cleaner alternatives. Please let's hear your ideas for a better tomorrow?
So far, All I've been hearing, is several people criticizing me for wanting a better way, but not offering anything new, and fresh, and clean. So let's hear it!

I live in Indonesia as I believe you do also. You want to eliminate petroleum products here and everywhere. The petroleum business is big business here and while you get your wish of eliminating domestic use, exports will sky rocket because China would buy the majority of it just like they buy coal now.

The petrol business domestically will never end. What would those millions of people use to start their open burning fires that you have never mentioned as a health hazard. You are so up in the air about EVs that you fail to even see the amount of LPG used here. Where does that come from or will everyone need to spend cash that many don't have for new stoves?

So worried about pollution and health risk but fail to address the millions that have no septic tanks and waste goes directly into the major water ways or Oceans.

You always indicate you look at the forest but really, you completely miss the tree still standing before you. You miss it even when that tree gets cut down to clear more oxygen generating forest to grow crops.

I'm old. Put time into things that I was interested in in localities I was present in. Now, I have come to the new reality that with all the problems in the world, I just don't give a shit any longer. The world is crumbling even with Petro fuels but hey, we have all the social media uneducated experts to figure it out for us. Time to get naked, sit back, have some coffee, a few cookies, and enjoy my surroundings if lush green foliage as the geckos scurry around and the birds sing. Screw the world, my little piece is just fine.

 

[Balifrog]

"As estimated by the U.S. DOE (Department of Energy), the United States is returning to a period of rising electricity demand, with total energy demand potentially growing ~15-20% in the next decade and doubling by 2050. This will be driven by transformations in technologies like artificial intelligence (AI), data center expansion, new domestic manufacturing, and electrification in different sectors."

Don't tell me that this rising electricity demand will be covered by intermittent sources like sun and wind....

Gas, oil and coal being "bad", the alternative is nuclear.

 

[Shadrach]

I live in Indonesia as I believe you do also. You want to eliminate petroleum products here and everywhere. The petroleum business is big business here and while you get your wish of eliminating domestic use, exports will sky rocket because China would buy the majority of it just like they buy coal now.

The petrol business domestically will never end. What would those millions of people use to start their open burning fires that you have never mentioned as a health hazard. You are so up in the air about EVs that you fail to even see the amount of LPG used here. Where does that come from or will everyone need to spend cash that many don't have for new stoves?

So worried about pollution and health risk but fail to address the millions that have no septic tanks and waste goes directly into the major water ways or Oceans.

You always indicate you look at the forest but really, you completely miss the tree still standing before you. You miss it even when that tree gets cut down to clear more oxygen generating forest to grow crops.

I'm old. Put time into things that I was interested in in localities I was present in. Now, I have come to the new reality that with all the problems in the world, I just don't give a shit any longer. The world is crumbling even with Petro fuels but hey, we have all the social media uneducated experts to figure it out for us. Time to get naked, sit back, have some coffee, a few cookies, and enjoy my surroundings if lush green foliage as the geckos scurry around and the birds sing. Screw the world, my little piece is just fine.

Hey I agree with all you said! I'm not advocating sending oil, gas, and coal to China. I don't think starting open fires with petrol is a good idea. They could use kindling. I feel sorry for the people and animals that live in Sumatra, and Borneo. Cutting down all the forest for palm oil production is a foolish move, only to satisfy a few greedy people now!
I don't understand why you and others are so defensive of the petrochemical industry, and seem to want to attack me for wanting greener alternatives, to what we have now.
Please instead of being negative towards me, be positive and give us suggestions on how we can still have energy and not be polluting our Planet so much?
I am not attached to electric vehicles! If someone can invent cars that run on Star power, that's fine with me.

I also, want to kick back, enjoy my remaining life, drink coffee, green tea, good booze, enjoy beautiful ladies, good friends, food, and Nature.

Even though I can't change the world, I still Care for the Planet to be healthy for generations to come!

 

[harryopal1]

At the current time, EVs with their battery technology are not where they need to be to be practical and certainly isn't any safer for the environment. Dangerous in different ways. Going EV doesn't benefit the envioment as much as peple like to think and getting your power from coal to change the EV is likely worse in the long run that an ICE. Even if you were to break even with damage, it will be time to buy a new battery and start the dance all over again.

I'm not defending the petro industry but it is what we have and has been prover for over 100 years. Modern made ICEs are much less polluting than they were 10-20 years ago. Maybe there something right around the corner but I'm not betting on current EVs to save us.

My ideas for a cleaner future involve nuclear powered generators so I'm not sure you would listen to my plan anyway. The radioactive waste from a proper designed and functioning nuclear plant is minuscule. But what about the safety? So far every problem that has resulted in irradiation were due to non safe operation (bypassing safety checks) or by a unsafe design and building process of the facility. Every single one COULD have been easily prevented.

Hawk256 "...So far every problem that has resulted in irradiation were due to non safe operation (bypassing safety checks) or by a unsafe design and building process of the facility. Every single one COULD have been easily prevented."

What concerns many of us is that given the human propensity for taking short cuts and making mistakes, when it comes to a mistake with a nuclear power plant the results can be truly catastrophic as has now been shown with Chernobyl and Fukushima. The Three Mile Island meltdown in 1979 and the Enrico Fermi partial meltdown in 1966 were on the edge of becoming major disasters. Meanwhile in Australia the CSIRO has shown that starting to build nuclear power plants in Australia would probably be double what is suggested by proponents for nuclear power .

 

[Shadrach]

Hawk256 "...So far every problem that has resulted in irradiation were due to non safe operation (bypassing safety checks) or by a unsafe design and building process of the facility. Every single one COULD have been easily prevented."

What concerns many of us is that given the human propensity for taking short cuts and making mistakes, when it comes to a mistake with a nuclear power plant the results can be truly catastrophic as has now been shown with Chernobyl and Fukushima. The Three Mile Island meltdown in 1979 and the Enrico Fermi partial meltdown in 1966 were on the edge of becoming major disasters. Meanwhile in Australia the CSIRO has shown that starting to build nuclear power plants in Australia would probably be double what is suggested by proponents for nuclear power .

I also agree about the potential of catastrophic disasters when it comes to Nuclear power plants! It's just not worth the risk. Building one and thinking it's been built to perfect standards, then having a meltdown. Saying OOPS, sorry about that! We tried. Just doesn't cut it. Please explain what you mean by double in Australia? And what is CSIRO?

 

[harryopal1]

Please explain what you mean by double? And what is CSIRO?

Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation.

And a correction on my part. The CSIRO found nuclear power would cost double the cost of renewables. The Liberal party push for nuclear power has not yet been costed but in long term projects it seems most of them end up double the original estimate. So an apology from me for misquoting the CSIRO.


Here is a link to the full report. https://www.csiro.au/en/news/All/Articles/2024/December/Nuclear-explainer

 

[harryopal1]

Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation.

And a correction on my part. The CSIRO found nuclear power would cost double the cost of renewables. The Liberal party push for nuclear power has not yet been costed but in long term projects it seems most of them end up double the original estimate. So an apology from me for misquoting the CSIRO.


Here is a link to the full report. https://www.csiro.au/en/news/All/Articles/2024/December/Nuclear-explainer

Some examples of cost blow outs on major projects.
Sydney Light Rail: Originally estimated at A$1.6 billion in 2012, the final cost ballooned to over A$2.1 billion.
Melbourne Metro Rail Project: Initially budgeted at A$11 billion in 2014, it now faces an estimated cost of over A$30 billion.
Perth City Link: The initial budget was A$1.9 billion in 2009, but the project is now expected to cost over A$2.7 billion.
East West Link (Melbourne): While ultimately cancelled, the estimated cost of this project soared from A$6.8 billion to A$14.5 billion.