Big Improvement In West Java Schools

[Shadrach]

Putting more money into education just means they will be given more religious education. If an English teacher can't speak English how does increasing the salary help?
The schools are so bad because the families themselves don't care about education. Until parents actually start to care about (non-religious) education nothing will change. It will continue to be a finishing school for taxi drivers and massage therapists and other low skilled service workers. Which probably suits the rich families who run the country very well indeed.

I sadly have to agree with you. Unfortunately, religion seems to be based on promoting fear, instead advancing people's thinking. I have always thought that having Separation between Church,Schools, Government, is the best way. Keep Religion in the Temples, Churches, Mosques, Synagogues, Etc. And Education and Government policy making Separate!
You cannot have religious teachings in Schools, because not everyone believes the same. Some people are Atheists! And that's their right to do so!
If Indonesia wants to become a Modern country, it has to promote Education. If not, it will always be a Third World Country!
,

 

[Shadrach]

Mandatory use of school uniforms has its pros and cons. On the down side it restricts individuality and fosters conformity (some see that as a benefit). On the plus side it helps bolster egalitarianism.

That sounds like forced conformity! Not equality! It's like mass production of the same Drone! Boring!

 

[harryopal1]

I sadly have to agree with you. Unfortunately, religion seems to be based on promoting fear, instead advancing people's thinking. I have always thought that having Separation between Church,Schools, Government, is the best way. Keep Religion in the Temples, Churches, Mosques, Synagogues, Etc. And Education and Government policy making Separate!
You cannot have religious teachings in Schools, because not everyone believes the same. Some people are Atheists! And that's their right to do so!
If Indonesia wants to become a Modern country, it has to promote Education. If not, it will always be a Third World Country!
,

" Some people are Atheists! And that's their right to do so!"

You may not have a right to be an atheist in Indonesia. 28E of the Indonesian Constitution that guarantees freedom of belief is often interpreted in a way that also suggests that every citizen must be a theist, that is, it does not guarantee freedom from belief. Arguing to the contrary may be taken as promoting atheism which is seen as blasphemy and can result in a criminal prosecution.

 

[fastpitch17]

agreed. The gov't is doing a great disservice to the nation, and essentially forfeiting its future, by allowing the school system to languish in the bottom 20% of the world. It borders on child abuse in my opinion.

Heads need to roll. Foreigners need to be allowed in to act as mentors and consultants at the local level.

We already know what they think of allowing foreigners in to help with anything. The better solution would be further education programs to send teachers to better teaching focused schools abroad. Unfortunately the scholarship programs for government personnel to further their studies is on the chopping black already. The Ministry of finance just axed their scholarships to help pay for the free meal programs. If the Finance Ministry chops theirs I can imagine they have others in their sights also.

Problem is the teachers are teaching what they were taught. Sub par at best. The teachers and soon to be teachers need to first be educated before children benefit. At the same time the government needs to step up to get more children in the class rooms. I am an advocate for all educational funds to go strictly to public education and all private schools be self funded. No matter the affiliation.

 

[Shadrach]

" Some people are Atheists! And that's their right to do so!"

You may not have a right to be an atheist in Indonesia. 28E of the Indonesian Constitution that guarantees freedom of belief is often interpreted in a way that also suggests that every citizen must be a theist, that is, it does not guarantee freedom from belief. Arguing to the contrary may be taken as promoting atheism which is seen as blasphemy and can result in a criminal prosecution.

Wow, listening carefully to what you just said! I am shocked. This reminds me of ancient times when Witches were hanged. The Holy Crusades, Joan Of Arc, Etc! Does this mean the Church controls the Government?
You can have freedom of belief, Only if you believe what we tell you to believe! Thats freedom?

 

[Shadrach]

We already know what they think of allowing foreigners in to help with anything. The better solution would be further education programs to send teachers to better teaching focused schools abroad. Unfortunately the scholarship programs for government personnel to further their studies is on the chopping black already. The Ministry of finance just axed their scholarships to help pay for the free meal programs. If the Finance Ministry chops theirs I can imagine they have others in their sights also.

Problem is the teachers are teaching what they were taught. Sub par at best. The teachers and soon to be teachers need to first be educated before children benefit. At the same time the government needs to step up to get more children in the class rooms. I am an advocate for all educational funds to go strictly to public education and all private schools be self funded. No matter the affiliation.

i agree 100%, You said that so well! That part about the funds going to public schools only, and Private schools be funded by attendees, is so to the point! It makes me so Sad, that these people in power, want to stop free meals for poor children. What is going on in this World? I see this happening in America too! What do these officials want to finance, if they don't want to finance education, and feeding kids?
If things were done correctly, and proper Universities were established here, teachers wouldn't have to go abroad. If needed bring in foreign Professors temporarily, to train Indonesian Professors, to do the job?
Education is the best solution to the World's problems!

 

[Shadrach]

Really? I was led to believe that its local property taxes which mostly pay for it leading to significantly better schools in areas with higher property prices and therefore increasing the social divide.

I believe you are right about that. My bad, I hadn't really thought about it. That is a shame if that's the case. But the public schools are free and the books, teachers, buses are provided for by the Government, local or federal. Not the parents.
Now this something important, where the federal government should step in and balance this discrepancy.
This is where we need Equity, and Inclusion, not Division!

 

[Bob]

That sounds like forced conformity! Not equality! It's like mass production of the same Drone! Boring!

That the wealthy kids can't lord their designer duds over the poorer ones isn't a bad thing.

 

[Shadrach]

That the wealthy kids can't lord their designer duds over the poorer ones isn't a bad thing.

Yea I've heard that reasoning before, and I understand. It would suck to be the poorer kid. Kids can be cruel! But having to dress with a shirt and tie? And poor parents being forced to buy 6 uniforms? The design just look so military to me, it freaks me out. I still believe it's a form of indoctrination. When I went to public school, we didn't have to wear uniforms, and had poor kids and rich kids going to school together and everyone survived.

 

[Shadrach]

Low-quality teachers, rural dropouts, learning divides: Can Asia solve this education crisis?

As their governments aim for reform, CNA series Shifting Horizons explores how Indonesia, India and China plan to overcome the systemic barriers between their students and quality education, and how technology may offer new solutions.

www.channelnewsasia.com

Indonesia education ranked 66 out of 81
80% of English teachers in Jakarta can not speak English
Around 80% of teachers do not meet minimum teaching standards.

Why I say they need to start overhauling the teachers to learn proper ways to teach or get out of the profession. True, not paid well so that too needs to be looked at. Maybe instead of all those free meals.

It's true, the teachers should be paid more to have an incentive to teach their students as much as possible to give them a better chance to succeed in this tough world we live in now! And just a suggestion, but teach as much Bahasa English as possible.
Here in Bali, it is the most spoken common language between tourist now. So, since Bali depends on tourism for almost all it's income, it seems that the more the students are proficient in English, the better chance they have to get a better job, and provide a better life for their families.
But hey, be nice, Free meals might mean the difference of some children going hungry or not. You can't concentrate with a hungry belly!

 

[marcus]

... Does this mean the Church controls the Government?

No .

You can have freedom of belief, Only if you believe what we tell you to believe! ...

No , too (see below) .

-------------------------------

From https://www.hukumonline.com/klinik/...kepercayaan-sebagai-hak-asasi-manusia-cl6556/
Title : Freedom of Religion and Belief as a Human Right
By Renata Christha Auli, S.H. (Law Bachelor) , July 2023 , free translation

... in the Explanation of Article 1 of Presidential Decree 1/1965 it is stated that the religions embraced by the people of Indonesia are Islam, Christianity, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Confucianism.

However, this does not mean that other religions are prohibited in Indonesia. Adherents of religions outside the 6 (six) religions in Indonesia receive full guarantees as provided by Article 29 paragraph (2) of the 1945 Constitution and are allowed to exist, as long as they do not violate laws and regulations in Indonesia...

Freedom of religion is reflected in the First Principle of Pancasila (Constitution) which recognizes the "One Almighty God", which means that every human being in Indonesia is obliged to respect the religion and beliefs of others, because it is the right of every person to choose, embrace, and practice the teachings of their religion freely without experiencing interference and without disturbing others.[17]

However, freedom of religion ... meaning that there is no place for atheism ...

 

[fastpitch17]

i agree 100%, You said that so well! That part about the funds going to public schools only, and Private schools be funded by attendees, is so to the point! It makes me so Sad, that these people in power, want to stop free meals for poor children. What is going on in this World? I see this happening in America too! What do these officials want to finance, if they don't want to finance education, and feeding kids?
If things were done correctly, and proper Universities were established here, teachers wouldn't have to go abroad. If needed bring in foreign Professors temporarily, to train Indonesian Professors, to do the job?
Education is the best solution to the World's problems!

Indonesia is not cutting free meals. Just the opposite, free meals for all public school attendees and pregnant women is now in effect. What I would suggest is that free meals in schools be based on income levels where some get free, some get reduced, and some pay full. It's the US that wants to stop the free meal programs that targets poorer families. Now, everyone in Indonesia can get a free health check up. You think BPJS isn't already in financial jeopardy?

 

[Helpful Herbert]

I'd say that many more families care about education than not. Unfortunately the system incentivizes other paths to success.

My experience is they care a lot about religion and religious "education". However in terms of real education, they don't seem to care or even know what it is. The main reason is they were not educated themselves, so have no real experience of what it means to be educated. Of course there are some (maybe 2-3% of the population) who do know and care, but they are heavily outnumbered.

 

[centurion]

Indonesia is not cutting free meals. Just the opposite, free meals for all public school attendees and pregnant women is now in effect. What I would suggest is that free meals in schools be based on income levels where some get free, some get reduced, and some pay full. It's the US that wants to stop the free meal programs that targets poorer families. Now, everyone in Indonesia can get a free health check up. You think BPJS isn't already in financial jeopardy?

In the US poor people are fat.

 

[Shadrach]

No .

No , too (see below) .

-------------------------------

From https://www.hukumonline.com/klinik/...kepercayaan-sebagai-hak-asasi-manusia-cl6556/
Title : Freedom of Religion and Belief as a Human Right
By Renata Christha Auli, S.H. (Law Bachelor) , July 2023 , free translation

... in the Explanation of Article 1 of Presidential Decree 1/1965 it is stated that the religions embraced by the people of Indonesia are Islam, Christianity, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Confucianism.

However, this does not mean that other religions are prohibited in Indonesia. Adherents of religions outside the 6 (six) religions in Indonesia receive full guarantees as provided by Article 29 paragraph (2) of the 1945 Constitution and are allowed to exist, as long as they do not violate laws and regulations in Indonesia...

Freedom of religion is reflected in the First Principle of Pancasila (Constitution) which recognizes the "One Almighty God", which means that every human being in Indonesia is obliged to respect the religion and beliefs of others, because it is the right of every person to choose, embrace, and practice the teachings of their religion freely without experiencing interference and without disturbing others.[17]

However, freedom of religion ... meaning that there is no place for atheism ...

That's nice to hear about this law. I still think it is a personal matter, and up to every individual person to believe what they feel. That means the freedom to be Atheist also. Spiritualism is something that is personal. Everyone should have the freedom to believe what they want, and choose what they want. I've heard people can choose to become Muslim, if they desire, and go through the proper steps. I don't know for sure, and I may be wrong, but I heard a person has to be born Hindu to be Hindu. As for all the others, I haven't a clue.
Myself personally, was taken to a Southern Baptist Christian Church and heard all about the teachings of Christ and all the stories of Christianity. Until I was ten years old. Then my parents stopped going. So I stopped also. After that, religion was never a topic in my home. My parents just told me to be honest, not steal, work hard at everything and do the best I can, and most of all, Don't judge others by the color of their skin! So I can't consider myself a Christian, because I don't practice this religion.
I have traveled all over Asia, and been around Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu's, Muslim's and heard teachings about those religions. I don't judge or follow any of them. I just observe. So I think, if someone doesn't believe in Religion and is seeking or maybe not seeking Spirituality, that is their business, and freedom, and not for anyone to tell them
I was referring to the law about freedom of religion, and does the Church control the Government. So someone said, there is freedom of religion, but no freedom to not have one!
Is someone a Criminal, if they are in doubt or are confused about how they feel about religion and God, and at the moment don't believe in God?



QUOTE="fastpitch17, post: 109137, member: 57"]
Indonesia is not cutting free meals. Just the opposite, free meals for all public school attendees and pregnant women is now in effect. What I would suggest is that free meals in schools be based on income levels where some get free, some get reduced, and some pay full. It's the US that wants to stop the free meal programs that targets poorer families. Now, everyone in Indonesia can get a free health check up. You think BPJS isn't already in financial jeopardy?
[/QUOTE]
That's good to know about kids still getting free meals. Before I was referring to what someone had mentioned about teachers and meals. I agree, it would be fair, if the program was based on families income level. And you say everyone can get a health check up? Thats good.
The greatest asset of any country is the populations health, and education for all. Without these two assets, how can a country prosper and advance into the future.
Now America is in a turmoil, and in transition with this Madman as President and Trump as Vice President. Yea, The Richest Man in the World, wants to stop helping the poorest of the World, and the poorest of America. Even stop feeding children! And believe it or not, some support this!

 

[Shadrach]

In the US poor people are fat.

What has that to do with Health check ups for all, and free meals for kids?

 

[Bob]

My experience is they care a lot about religion and religious "education". However in terms of real education, they don't seem to care or even know what it is. The main reason is they were not educated themselves, so have no real experience of what it means to be educated. Of course there are some (maybe 2-3% of the population) who do know and care, but they are heavily outnumbered.

I guess our view on that is depends quite a bit on our family and social groups here. I agree that religion and religious education is across the board more important to people here than in the West. That said, most Indonesians I know do value and pursue secular education. They know from experience how it's helped them or they see how it's helped others.

 

[Bob]

In the US poor people are fat.

Hugely so.

 

[marcus]

... I am an advocate for all educational funds to go strictly to public education and all private schools be self funded ...

I agree , if the country has enough public schools , but I think Indonesia does not . My wife knows many poor children in our area who are in subsidized private schools . She told me that in the city where she lived before , some poor people even preferred this type of private school (now I know why) .
When I transferred the kids from her former city to my city , I could not do it to public schools due to various reasons . Later we could hardly transfer only the younger to a public school (the school told us there was no vacancy , but later our neighbor presented us to the school's vice-director (who also live near us) and she got us a place in the school) . Unfortunately we found out that my younger's former cheap private school was better than the present public school . We only don't move the kid back to the former school because it is too far away .

 

[serious_fun]

We already know what they think of allowing foreigners in to help with anything. The better solution would be further education programs to send teachers to better teaching focused schools abroad.

That's a good idea; I'd guess that foreign governments would help to subsidize such a programme...the issues would then be getting "approval" from Ulema types who would want to ensure that Indonesian educators don't pick up any nasty teaching practices while overseas, nepotism/corruption in awarding the overseas study, and good old fashioned jealousy from colleagues and school administrators.