Big Improvement In West Java Schools

[Shadrach]

That's a good idea; I'd guess that foreign governments would help to subsidize such a programme...the issues would then be getting "approval" from Ulema types who would want to ensure that Indonesian educators don't pick up any nasty teaching practices while overseas, nepotism/corruption in awarding the overseas study, and good old fashioned jealousy from colleagues and school administrators.

I can't believe what you just said about teachers learning how to be better teachers. It just couldn't be tolerated for a teacher to focus on providing Math, Spelling, Reading and Writing, and learning English, for their students, and less religious teachings. Oh, that would be terrible to have that brought back to Indonesia I guess?

 

[fastpitch17]

In the US poor people are fat.

Not just them. Cheaper food, easiest way to get fat.

 

[fastpitch17]

I can't believe what you just said about teachers learning how to be better teachers. It just couldn't be tolerated for a teacher to focus on providing Math, Spelling, Reading and Writing, and learning English, for their students, and less religious teachings. Oh, that would be terrible to have that brought back to Indonesia I guess?

You must be stuck on that English part. Maybe because you' re native language is English but it is not the only foreign language that should be available. Many students go in the foreign universities from here and having languages for their studies would certainly be helpful and maybe even open up other uni choices.

 

[Bob]

Not just them. Cheaper food, easiest way to get fat.

Cheaper food, and high calorie empty nutrition carbohydrates don't make for a healthy diet.

 

[harryopal1]

Cheaper food, and high calorie empty calorie carbohydrates don't make for a healthy diet.

And these cheaper foods are usually heavily laced with salt and sugar leading easily to diabetes and a range of serious health issues including obesity.

 

[Shadrach]

You must be stuck on that English part. Maybe because you' re native language is English but it is not the only foreign language that should be available. Many students go in the foreign universities from here and having languages for their studies would certainly be helpful and maybe even open up other uni choices.

Yes it is my native language, but it is also the common language spoken between tourist. Since Tourism is the main source of income for Bali, it only makes sense for the locals to learn as much English as possible.
Actually, I heard Spanish is the number 1 spoken language in the World.

 

[Hawk256]

Actually, I heard Spanish is the number 1 spoken language in the World.

According to most sources Spanish is number 4. English, Mandarin, Hindi and then Spanish. English only overtook Mandarin in the past few years.

 

[Nicho]

Need to do the same in East Java / Jawa timur , Luckily my son has now finished school but while he was there it was constant requests for money , airconditioners , laptops that were never seen , excursions cancelled with no refunds , kids not allowed to participate in group or whole school events if they didn't pay , a annual fee for the use of classrooms !! More religion orientated than actual education !! Kids taken out of school by parents once they could read and write and new basic maths to work or help in family businesses .

 

[Shadrach]

Need to do the same in East Java / Jawa timur , Luckily my son has now finished school but while he was there it was constant requests for money , airconditioners , laptops that were never seen , excursions cancelled with no refunds , kids not allowed to participate in group or whole school events if they didn't pay , a annual fee for the use of classrooms !! More religion orientated than actual education !! Kids taken out of school by parents once they could read and write and new basic maths to work or help in family businesses .

Give Praise to the Most High. Where is this school? Sounds like a great school for kids to go learn the fine art of getting Money for Nothing! Sort of a preschool to be a boss at a Casino in Las Vegas,Macau, or Montecarlo! .
And they get Religion as a bonus!

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Need to do the same in East Java / Jawa timur , Luckily my son has now finished school but while he was there it was constant requests for money , airconditioners , laptops that were never seen , excursions cancelled with no refunds , kids not allowed to participate in group or whole school events if they didn't pay , a annual fee for the use of classrooms !! More religion orientated than actual education !! Kids taken out of school by parents once they could read and write and new basic maths to work or help in family businesses .

This is a very good summary. How can a country possibly become developed when things like this are the norm. No chance. Mosque loudspeaker volumes and abuse are another expression of the same widespread ignorance.

 

[Shadrach]

This is a very good summary. How can a country possibly become developed when things like this are the norm. No chance. Mosque loudspeaker volumes and abuse are another expression of the same widespread ignorance.

Why does the Mosque have to play the call to prayer so loudly? Don't the worshippers already know when to attend? You would think after doing it five times a day for years, they could it blindfolded. Are they afraid to lose attendees. Are they pushing their beliefs on others of different faiths?
Someone mentioned they knew a young child twelve years old, that was forced to study the Koran and knew much of the teachings, but could not even count to ten! Twelve years old?
I wonder, and mean no offense but, Is it written in the Koran, that a Woman must cover her hair in public, but not the Man? Sometimes in certain countries, even cover all their body from the top of the head to the feet dressed all in black, with a veil even over the eyes, in temperatures sometimes reaching almost 50 degrees? While the men are wearing White open flowing clothing?
Is it written in the Koran that all Muslims must face Mecca in Saudi Arabia and pray in that direction?
I don't know and again mean no offense to Islam, but is it promoted to push the Islamic faith on as to many people as possible?
I believe if people choose this lifestyle then that is their right to do so. But I also believe it is the right for all children ( boys and girls) to be given the opportunity to have a basic education and even the right for all to achieve a higher academic education, not affiliated with Religion!

 

[Hawk256]

The call to prayer is supposed to loud enough for everyone to hear. Granted amplification is new development and some areas are louder than others. The times vary each day depending on the sun. Yes a good Muslim should know approximately what time it will be but it cannot start without the call to prayer by the local Masjid. You can answer your other questions about Islam by doing a little research (even a quick Google search) and you might learn something else along the way. Some people put no importance in religion and to some people religion is the only thing that matters in this life? Who is to know for sure which one is right and which one is wrong.

 

[fastpitch17]

The call to prayer is supposed to loud enough for everyone to hear. Granted amplification is new development and some areas are louder than others. The times vary each day depending on the sun. Yes a good Muslim should know approximately what time it will be but it cannot start without the call to prayer by the local Masjid. You can answer your other questions about Islam by doing a little research (even a quick Google search) and you might learn something else along the way. Some people put no importance in religion and to some people religion is the only thing that matters in this life? Who is to know for sure which one is right and which one is wrong.

According to the Quran prayers are suppose to be on the quiet side. Majeet uses the call to prayer to reach out to it's congregation in it's area. The loud speakers reach even further so Imam can compete and they hope bring in other worshipers from other Mosque to fill their collection boxes. Call to prayers was designed to be given orally outside your entrance unaided by electronic equipment and with it, when you have a Mosque only meter from each other, all you get is garbled messages that can't be singled out or understood. Now, some Mosque have taken it upon themselves to change their call to prayer times to avoid the garbled mess.

As for loudness. We have Mosque that intentionally broadcast during any Christian and Catholic services. It just adds to my beliefs that Islam is a very insecure religion. One Mosque at the Northern end of the bay is so loud that you can not be anywhere near it or risk ear damage. They want to make sure the ships and boats in the Bay can hear them. I imagine Krakatoa can hear them.

 

[fastpitch17]

Why does the Mosque have to play the call to prayer so loudly? Don't the worshippers already know when to attend? You would think after doing it five times a day for years, they could it blindfolded. Are they afraid to lose attendees. Are they pushing their beliefs on others of different faiths?
Someone mentioned they knew a young child twelve years old, that was forced to study the Koran and knew much of the teachings, but could not even count to ten! Twelve years old?
I wonder, and mean no offense but, Is it written in the Koran, that a Woman must cover her hair in public, but not the Man? Sometimes in certain countries, even cover all their body from the top of the head to the feet dressed all in black, with a veil even over the eyes, in temperatures sometimes reaching almost 50 degrees? While the men are wearing White open flowing clothing?
Is it written in the Koran that all Muslims must face Mecca in Saudi Arabia and pray in that direction?
I don't know and again mean no offense to Islam, but is it promoted to push the Islamic faith on as to many people as possible?
I believe if people choose this lifestyle then that is their right to do so. But I also believe it is the right for all children ( boys and girls) to be given the opportunity to have a basic education and even the right for all to achieve a higher academic education, not affiliated with Religion!

Sure, they know when the time to pray is. Mosque just compete and the religion in general has to keep that control over the masses. Not sure if the Quran says pray five times a day, I believe so but I know the Quran does not say at what times. The times came later in one of those personal interpretation the call the Hadiths. Times are listed daily now in most newspapers and as interruptions on TV and radio broadcast. The religion doesn't trust you to remember yourself.

As for covering, it has been discussed numerous times here. Too bad Dan isn't around to help us all out. In a discussion way back on that other unnamed forum it was told by a Muslim individual who delved into the Quran that with the writing in covering which today has been interpreted by men that the actual word that they now changed to mean everything actually was the Arabic word for treasures. It said women should cover their treasures. Hardly be cover everything like it is interpreted today by men to be enforced by men over women. Read the History of Mohammad and you will find that while he had 8 wives he proclaimed men could only have 4. This was for his son in law but probable he was just helping his daughter stay in the who gets what line later. His wives spent most of their time at home naked unless there was a visitor and then they covered their treasures. The long list of people that are allowed to see the uncovered women came in one of those Hadiths so what one guy thought at the time of the writing. Some on the approval list could be taken as perverts since it reaches beyond the immediate family. Oh, and that circumcision stuff. Not in the Quran. Again, the Hadiths. People like to justifying by saying Mohammad was circumcized. History says, wrong, he was born without foreskin. Funny how the Quran says humans are perfect and must never be changed in any way. Oh no, here comes the guy with a blade to say, except for this.

It is a known plan in the Islamic world that all should spread Islam throughout the world. The easiest to reach are the poor and needy where they can get assurances that their poor lives are OK because it is god's will and they will be rewarded later. Never encouragement to do better to improve their lives. Easier to have control over. Basically what any religion is, control over the masses.

 

[Shadrach]

According to the Quran prayers are suppose to be on the quiet side. Majeet uses the call to prayer to reach out to it's congregation in it's area. The loud speakers reach even further so Imam can compete and they hope bring in other worshipers from other Mosque to fill their collection boxes. Call to prayers was designed to be given orally outside your entrance unaided by electronic equipment and with it, when you have a Mosque only meter from each other, all you get is garbled messages that can't be singled out or understood. Now, some Mosque have taken it upon themselves to change their call to prayer times to avoid the garbled mess.

As for loudness. We have Mosque that intentionally broadcast during any Christian and Catholic services. It just adds to my beliefs that Islam is a very insecure religion. One Mosque at the Northern end of the bay is so loud that you can not be anywhere near it or risk ear damage. They want to make sure the ships and boats in the Bay can hear them. I imagine Krakatoa can hear them.

Yea I think hearing an actual man singing in a beautiful voice would be so much more pleasant than this noise now.
It reminds me of AC/DC Hah!

 

[Helpful Herbert]

The call to prayer is supposed to loud enough for everyone to hear. Granted amplification is new development and some areas are louder than others. The times vary each day depending on the sun. Yes a good Muslim should know approximately what time it will be but it cannot start without the call to prayer by the local Masjid. You can answer your other questions about Islam by doing a little research (even a quick Google search) and you might learn something else along the way. Some people put no importance in religion and to some people religion is the only thing that matters in this life? Who is to know for sure which one is right and which one is wrong.

You must live in a very unusual part of Indonesia where mosque loudspeakers are not abused. The call to prayer is 3 minutes x 5 times a day = 15 minutes per day. I estimate that mosque loudspeakers can be heard at least 2 hours per day sometimes more. That is both haram and an abuse of loudspeakers and an insult to the community. Also mohamed never said anything about loudspeakers, so imho the guy at the mosque should just climb up a minaret and shout, as was done for centuries. Not annoy everyone and cause medical issues and death by assaulting people's eardrums so often. [check medical research about the increase in death rate caused by loud noise, you might learn something along the way]
"evidence from epidemiologic studies demonstrates that environmental noise is associated with an increased incidence of arterial hypertension, myocardial infarction, and stroke."

Cardiovascular effects of environmental noise exposure - PMC

The role of noise as an environmental pollutant and its impact on health are being increasingly recognized. Beyond its effects on the auditory system, noise causes annoyance and disturbs sleep, and it impairs cognitive performance. Furthermore, ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Shadrach]

You must live in a very unusual part of Indonesia where mosque loudspeakers are not abused. The call to prayer is 3 minutes x 5 times a day = 15 minutes per day. I estimate that mosque loudspeakers can be heard at least 2 hours per day sometimes more. That is both haram and an abuse of loudspeakers and an insult to the community. Also mohamed never said anything about loudspeakers, so imho the guy at the mosque should just climb up a minaret and shout, as was done for centuries. Not annoy everyone and cause medical issues and death by assaulting people's eardrums so often. [check medical research about the increase in death rate caused by loud noise, you might learn something along the way]
"evidence from epidemiologic studies demonstrates that environmental noise is associated with an increased incidence of arterial hypertension, myocardial infarction, and stroke."

Cardiovascular effects of environmental noise exposure - PMC

The role of noise as an environmental pollutant and its impact on health are being increasingly recognized. Beyond its effects on the auditory system, noise causes annoyance and disturbs sleep, and it impairs cognitive performance. Furthermore, ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

No fortunately I live in the hills of Bali where there are no Mosque Yet! But from what I've seen over the years, more and more Muslims are moving to Bali, and will of course want their place of worship to be built. I suspect they will try to proselytize and promote Islam to take over Bali Also. Then they will have succeeded in conquering All of Indonesia!
I warn my Balinese friends to be aware and on the lookout for this, but they say it will never happen. I Wonder?
Anyway, I do like the sound of a real person singing the Call to Prayer, with a beautiful voice. I don't understand the words or meaning, but musically the singing is beautiful!
I just don't like anyone pushing their Religion on anyone else. That goes for all Religion's!

 

[Hawk256]

It is a known plan in the Islamic world that all should spread Islam throughout the world. The easiest to reach are the poor and needy where they can get assurances that their poor lives are OK because it is god's will and they will be rewarded later. Never encouragement to do better to improve their lives. Easier to have control over. Basically what any religion is, control over the masses.

The Quran and Hadith make it very clear that religion is not to be forced on anyone. A lot of confusion comes from the verses in the Quran where the Muslims were being invaded, having the land taken away and murdered but were told if the enemy covered they were to be spared. Many people interrupt that to mean that Islam can be spread by the sword but that is absolutely not the case. Quite a few things come down to context and interpretation and your example of "treasures" is not exactly correct either. Some people claim it means bosom and some other things but the actual meaning has been very clear for Arabic speakers.

I'm curious that what power religion has over the day to day life of poor people and how that benefits the religion? We aren't exactly fighting wars much anymore.

 

[Bob]

Sure, they know when the time to pray is. Mosque just compete and the religion in general has to keep that control over the masses. Not sure if the Quran says pray five times a day, I believe so but I know the Quran does not say at what times. The times came later in one of those personal interpretation the call the Hadiths. Times are listed daily now in most newspapers and as interruptions on TV and radio broadcast. The religion doesn't trust you to remember yourself.

As for covering, it has been discussed numerous times here. Too bad Dan isn't around to help us all out. In a discussion way back on that other unnamed forum it was told by a Muslim individual who delved into the Quran that with the writing in covering which today has been interpreted by men that the actual word that they now changed to mean everything actually was the Arabic word for treasures. It said women should cover their treasures. Hardly be cover everything like it is interpreted today by men to be enforced by men over women. Read the History of Mohammad and you will find that while he had 8 wives he proclaimed men could only have 4. This was for his son in law but probable he was just helping his daughter stay in the who gets what line later. His wives spent most of their time at home naked unless there was a visitor and then they covered their treasures. The long list of people that are allowed to see the uncovered women came in one of those Hadiths so what one guy thought at the time of the writing. Some on the approval list could be taken as perverts since it reaches beyond the immediate family. Oh, and that circumcision stuff. Not in the Quran. Again, the Hadiths. People like to justifying by saying Mohammad was circumcized. History says, wrong, he was born without foreskin. Funny how the Quran says humans are perfect and must never be changed in any way. Oh no, here comes the guy with a blade to say, except for this.

It is a known plan in the Islamic world that all should spread Islam throughout the world. The easiest to reach are the poor and needy where they can get assurances that their poor lives are OK because it is god's will and they will be rewarded later. Never encouragement to do better to improve their lives. Easier to have control over. Basically what any religion is, control over the masses.

You know the prayer times generally change every day, right?

 

[Shadrach]

The Quran and Hadith make it very clear that religion is not to be forced on anyone. A lot of confusion comes from the verses in the Quran where the Muslims were being invaded, having the land taken away and murdered but were told if the enemy covered they were to be spared. Many people interrupt that to mean that Islam can be spread by the sword but that is absolutely not the case. Quite a few things come down to context and interpretation and your example of "treasures" is not exactly correct either. Some people claim it means bosom and some other things but the actual meaning has been very clear for Arabic speakers.

I'm curious that what power religion has over the day to day life of poor people and how that benefits the religion? We aren't exactly fighting wars much anymore.

Wow, such a complicated subject. As with all religions, what was written in these books (Bible, Quran, Etc.) they are interpreted by different Priest, Mangku's, Pendeta's Imams and such, and each one comes up with a different interpretation. One thing for sure, they tell the poorer uneducated masses to be afraid of God, and if they don't follow what these leaders tell them, then God will become angry and come down with wrath and condemnation. They also tell the masses to give a portion of their wealth to the Church, Mosque, Etc, to make God happy. Since when does God need money?
And covering up their treasures, what type of treasures? We are fighting a war in a way. A War of educated verses uneducated people. The educated say they are smarter, thus they deserve to be in control of the uneducated masses. And the uneducated should give the educated a portion of their wealth to the educated for administrative purposes, to keep everything in order. Just look at all the Gold statues, doors, rings on the Priests fingers, the spheres on top of the temples, and churches.
Do people really think God gives a damn about all these Golden offerings? If they do, they deserve to get screwed by the leaders!
And why is it God only talks to the leaders, and not the common people?

This all reminds me of the book Animal Farm by George Orwell. We are all Equal, but some are more Equal than others!