DON'T PANIC.... well, maybe a little bit.

[Nimbus]

Missing Mc Do ?
My God ....... They could all close, KFC and similar as well as far I am concerned.
Would probably improve the world's eating habits as well as health.

Well, the Indonesian version of fast comfort food —the ubiquitous Restoran Padang— is not exactly the pinnacle of healthy eating. The caloric content of a Nasi Padang plate would easily rival a Big Mac with fries. Just about every single meal is made with coconut oil, which is 90% saturated fat. Compare that with butter at 64% and lard at 40%. Since McD’s fries is no longer cooked in lard, their Big Mac combo is likely to be less detrimental to your health.

 

[colroe]

It seems worldwide Covid has found us short when it comes to our great "scientific advances" which make us so superior to our forebears. We plough onwards desperately with vaccine research while some medical scientists warn some vaccines can damage our lungs and leave us worse off.
We set up for massive quick screening with blood tests which it seems are very unreliable.
Mass spraying of dubious benefits.
Rush into using anti malarial drugs which can have major deleterious effects.
Isolate people in ships and hospitals with air conditioning that seem likely to expose all the isolated to the virus.
In the absence of certain measures it seems we will try anything. A church offering members prayer and bleach to be imbibed..
We may emerge with a little humility or take the rather more satisfying path of pointing fingers and finding blame as in "bloody Chinese" insults, assaults and demands of China paying compensation.
There may be light at the end of the tunnel.... but which tunnel.
Ahh well, the Australian football league may ... perhaps... might be... subject to developments,,,, resume the Aussie rules season mid June. Hooray. I pray for that and feel it would be better than blood tests, spraying, dangerous medicines and dubious vaccines.
So what are the non believers in Australian rules football looking at to lift their spirits?

Its great news Harry!!! Go the Lions!

 

[Puspawarna]

We plough onwards desperately with vaccine research while some medical scientists warn some vaccines can damage our lungs and leave us worse off.

Please don't fall for any anti-vaxxer nonsense that's out there. No, vaccines aren't perfect. Very small numbers of people will have bad reactions, or the vaccines won't really protect them. But the world has been transformed by vaccines - we've wiped out smallpox, nearly wiped out polio, and (at least until anti-vax idiocy started influencing people's choices) virtually ended the devastating effects of measles, mumps, and rubella.

How quickly people forget what the world was like before we could protect entire populations against those scourges (I personally knew two people who had polio - both were lucky enough to recover the ability to walk, but both suffered a great deal from post-polio syndrome in the later years of their lives). To express doubt about vaccines because of extremely rare side effects is far more illogical than saying we should ban cars because of casualties from traffic accidents. The benefits so far outweigh the costs that it is ludicrous to even contemplate forgoing vaccines.

 

[nardo]

A positive outcome in the war on the obesity epidemic!

 

[harryopal1]

Please don't fall for any anti-vaxxer nonsense that's out there. No, vaccines aren't perfect. Very small numbers of people will have bad reactions, or the vaccines won't really protect them. But the world has been transformed by vaccines - we've wiped out smallpox, nearly wiped out polio, and (at least until anti-vax idiocy started influencing people's choices) virtually ended the devastating effects of measles, mumps, and rubella.

How quickly people forget what the world was like before we could protect entire populations against those scourges (I personally knew two people who had polio - both were lucky enough to recover the ability to walk, but both suffered a great deal from post-polio syndrome in the later years of their lives). To express doubt about vaccines because of extremely rare side effects is far more illogical than saying we should ban cars because of casualties from traffic accidents. The benefits so far outweigh the costs that it is ludicrous to even contemplate forgoing vaccines.

To vaccinate or not to vaccinate is one of those issues that raises a lot of passions. So I am not out to convert anyone to a point of view other than to say that having taken a continuing interest in health issues for more than 60 years I choose not to vaccinate. However, I do think it reasonable to warn that the profits to be made by the first pharmaceutical company to get out a vaccine and the present state of emergency could result in dire consequences.

One major pharmaceutical company has alreade made $208 million on a vaccine not as yet tested on humans. Full story:
https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/13...8-million-on-an-untested-coronavirus-vaccine/

Speaking at a briefing on Wednesday the WHO Emergencies Director, Dr Michael Ryan said, "
"It is important to put this on the table: this virus may become just another endemic virus in our communities, and this virus may never go away," Dr Ryan told the virtual press conference from Geneva.
"HIV has not gone away - but we have come to terms with the virus."

There are currently more than 100 potential vaccines in development - but Dr Ryan noted there are other illnesses, such as measles, that still haven't been eliminated despite there being vaccines for them.

My main point being that we are desperately hoping that another scientific miracle will save us. Developing natural immune systems based on healthy foods and exercise may utimately be the better long term solution. Meantime ... if you want to vaccinate feel free. We all make choices.

 

[fastpitch17]

To vaccinate or not to vaccinate is one of those issues that raises a lot of passions. So I am not out to convert anyone to a point of view other than to say that having taken a continuing interest in health issues for more than 60 years I choose not to vaccinate. However, I do think it reasonable to warn that the profits to be made by the first pharmaceutical company to get out a vaccine and the present state of emergency could result in dire consequences.

One major pharmaceutical company has alreade made $208 million on a vaccine not as yet tested on humans. Full story:
https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/13...8-million-on-an-untested-coronavirus-vaccine/

Speaking at a briefing on Wednesday the WHO Emergencies Director, Dr Michael Ryan said, "
"It is important to put this on the table: this virus may become just another endemic virus in our communities, and this virus may never go away," Dr Ryan told the virtual press conference from Geneva.
"HIV has not gone away - but we have come to terms with the virus."

There are currently more than 100 potential vaccines in development - but Dr Ryan noted there are other illnesses, such as measles, that still haven't been eliminated despite there being vaccines for them.

My main point being that we are desperately hoping that another scientific miracle will save us. Developing natural immune systems based on healthy foods and exercise may utimately be the better long term solution. Meantime ... if you want to vaccinate feel free. We all make choices.

"There are other illnesses, such as measles, that still haven't been eliminated despite there being vaccines for them." Primarily because of those that refuse to vaccinate against them. The scientific community is very confident that if all were vaccinated, measles would become only a memory.

HIV has no vaccine yet. Covid-19 could very well have that happen too. At the same time, the search for HIV vaccines have produced good reliable treatments for it.

Lately it is the Evangelicals who are on board with not getting a Covid-19 vaccine dose. Mark of the devil and all that. Bill Gates is trying to include tracking and monitoring devices to control the population for the deep state. Conspiracy theory hell.

Anti vaxxers have nothing based on actual science. They are nut cases that base their decisions on what people that have no experience with nor have any understanding of vaccines role in history. People that refuse to listen to science and many times, rationality. Basically, self imposed stupid people. Unfortunate that there are people out there who are willing to put masses of people in harms way because they are so selfish.

 

[Balifrog]

My main point being that we are desperately hoping that another scientific miracle will save us. Developing natural immune systems based on healthy foods and exercise may utimately be the better long term solution.

Spot on.

 

[Puspawarna]

I do think it reasonable to warn that the profits to be made by the first pharmaceutical company to get out a vaccine and the present state of emergency could result in dire consequences.

Yes, "Big Pharma" is not necessarily your friend. Trump's frantic desire to get the US economy moving again (because he wants accolades and reelection, not because he cares about suffering citizens) could, it seems to me, lead to premature approval of a vaccine that has not been properly tested. "Operation Warp Speed" worries me a little, since the experts he likes to ignore say it's unrealistic to target a safe, effective vaccine by the end of 2020.

But my worries are based on being an informed, scientifically literate citizen - I plan to listen to trustworthy public health experts on what it takes to create a vaccine. I don't say what you seem to be claiming, namely: "oh, we can't trust any vaccine that is created because pharmaceutical companies are only in it for the money."

We need a safe, effective vaccine and it will take tons of resources to create it, especially with an accelerated time line. Assuming the effort succeeds, I don't approve of price-gouging but I'm perfectly happy for the companies that succeed to make a decent profit.

Of course, I'd like those companies to direct the profits to the people who worked their asses off rather than to a lucky CEO. But that's a different subject. Bottom line is: if we can get a safe vaccine that works, then hell yes, I'm all for it. I'll rely on the media that Trump hates so much to do their best to keep companies honest.

My main point being that we are desperately hoping that another scientific miracle will save us. Developing natural immune systems based on healthy foods and exercise may utimately be the better long term solution.

Has it occurred to you that your understanding of what constitutes a "healthy diet"** is rooted in mainstream science, whether or not you personally accept what scientists say? Gosh, those scientists actually get things right!

Moreover, the idea that an "all natural" regime of diet and exercise alone will save us from every illness is ... naive. Cave men ate an all natural diet and got plenty of exercise and were lucky to live until age 30. And there is nothing "natural" about appendectomies.

Meantime ... if you want to vaccinate feel free. We all make choices.

Yes, and the reason your choice to not vaccinate works is because most of the people around you made the good choice to vaccinate. They protect not only themselves and their children, but you and your children as well. It's called "herd immunity." You're lucky most people vaccinate, because if they didn't, you might very well have a deaf and blind child because its mother had rubella while pregnant.

**Assuming you believe that "healthy" means unprocessed, homemade food from real ingredients with a heavy emphasis on fruits and vegetables - if you think that "healthy" is some fringe diet based on juice extracted from free-range lemmings' anal glands and homeopathic medicine, I withdraw that statement.

 

[dafluff]

My main point being that we are desperately hoping that another scientific miracle will save us. Developing natural immune systems based on healthy foods and exercise may utimately be the better long term solution. Meantime ... if you want to vaccinate feel free. We all make choices.

A scientific miracle may in fact be the only thing that can save us. A natural immune system is great. Having access to vaccines, antibiotics, antivirals, sterilization, a modern operating theater, etc is even better.

The vast majority of people prior to modern medicine died before reaching adulthood. Parents expecting all their children to grow up has only been the case in the past 100 years. A lot less than that for many parts of the world.

 

[harryopal1]

I am not anti science or anti medicine. Break a bone and I go to a doctor using Xray and imaging. As a child I had diptheria and was treated successfully at Fairfield hospital in Melbourne. Returning to Melbourne after living in Africa I had a virulent strain of malaria and ironically was back at Fairfield hospital where good science and treament prevailed so I can be here today to annoy the living what nots out of you with my contrariness.

I am sceptical and view many developments with a wary eye. Working as a journalist I was impressed by the many many times there would be press releases about some new great, scientific research "breakthrough" and being on the threshold of wiping out malaria and a range of other maladies. These exciting developments were then usually accompanied by the rider that the end product would be available in, most often, five years, My earlier reference to the $208 million made by a company working on a Corona vaccine alludes to the way so much medicine is directed by profit. Of course any business must make a profit to function but worldwide so many treatment areas are distorted by profit opportunities. The US hospital industry has become notorious for overpriced treatments across the spectrum of services. (As an aside I saw a news report last night of an estimate that it would cost the US $900 billion to vaccinate the entire population. So even with an effective vaccine it seems improbable that we will ever have total vaccination programs.)

Unnecessary surgical procedures based on greed have become embedded in our culture. Does this mean I think all surgery is bad? Of course not. My fall back is to question and question again before accepting treatments be they pharmaceutical or hands on. There are few pharmaceutical products on the markets that do not have adverse features. And, of course, there is now heated debate as to using Chloroquine for Corona. There are "trustworthy public health experts " who advocate its use and other "trustworthy public health experts" who cry out in alarm.

When anaesthetics were first introduced a "trustworthy public health expert" opposed its use in surgery as it would "deprive patients of the therapeutic benefit of pain." Across decades there has been a host of treatment practices recommended by experts of different periods which were later found to be unhelpful to dangerous so my response to new science is tinged by those realities.

Dafluff made the point , "The vast majority of people prior to modern medicine died before reaching adulthood. Parents expecting all their children to grow up has only been the case in the past 100 years." Much of that has been to do with a shift from extreme poverty and acceptance of basic hygiene practices enabled of course by improved scientific understanding of pathogens and the need for medical practitioners to engage in scrupulous cleanliness. Prior to this understanding of pathogens hand washing was not a regular surgical procedure with impossibly high rates of infections. Even today lapses of adequate hand washing has been associated with some hospitals struggling to avoid staph infections.

Anyway, with all that, thank you all for your various responses. At this point I will retire from this particular discussion as we can obviously argue back and forth 'til the cows come home.

Good luck to all with avoiding Corona whichever paths you travel.

 

[Nimbus]

Pharmaceutical companies don’t make big money creating vaccines, antibiotics, and other mass drugs. The money is in cures for rare diseases affecting rich countries, especially the ones (well, there’s only one country actually) with no universal healthcare.

When you make vaccines and new classes of antibiotics, you can’t charge much for something that saves billions of lives. Countries will twist your hand to license it at dirt cheap prices because it’s essential medicine, and your company will become a pariah if you fight it too hard.

Vaccines work. The path for it to become certified is so mind bogglingly complicated and expensive (on purpose) so the end product is fit for mass consumption. Nobody creates vaccines that impart more harm than benefit to the population, because it would have been shut down by the process. Nothing is perfect, just like no drug has zero side effect. The fatality rate of smallpox vaccine is one per million, but the rate for smallpox itself is 30%, or 300,000 per million. It’s not a typo, the disease is three hundred thousand times deadlier than the vaccine.

I’m willing to accomodate personal liberty as long as it doesn’t greatly endanger civilization as we know it. I propose that we create a public register of personal vaccination records. While your complete medical history remains private, your vaccination record must be public and accessible to everyone. If you refuse to be vaccinated, then I have the right to refuse being associated with you.

 

[nosox]

on the upside, at least there is no need to go "buka bersama" with a bunch of people I don't know or don't particularly like

 

[Puspawarna]

Sorry, harryopal ... I'm not going to watch a video that's over an hour long. If you want me to consider your arguments, you need to summarize them in text (which you did in post #1030 ...thank you).

You've made a reasonable case for keeping an open mind about the motivations of pharmaceutical companies and anyone who hypes a scientific breakthrough; I can't argue with that and in fact I agree with you. Journalists bear some responsibility for that, too. A couple of years ago I read a an analysis of how scientific studies get reported in the popular press. With your experience and skeptical bent, I'm sure you'll not be surprised to hear what the analysis found: Namely that articles for the public about new studies are prone to simplifications, weakly supported interpretations, and hype that bear little relationship to the real studies.

However, you haven't said anything that directly addresses the question of the safety, efficacy, and rationality of vaccinations. There is a huge amount of evidence over decades that vaccines save lives. Pointing out, however accurately, that there is a lot of hype in scientific press releases and that we also owe our longer lifespans to better hygiene (true) says zero about vaccines.

(I know you said you were not going to discuss this any longer, so I apologize if it looks like I'm insisting on getting the last word in. My excuse is that you posted again after saying you were done!)

 

[dafluff]

Moderation note: Earlier in this thread we have posted a warning not to post crazy conspiracy theory stuff. I have deleted one such Youtube posted just now, and going forward will have very little tolerance for such content, or those who post it.

For those who missed it, here's the description of this Youtube:

Scientific explanation for the layman, why Gates and his cronies are demanding a vaccine is used for Covid when it is not needed ! or indeed even if it exists.....

Also for the benefit of those who have seen it, here is a lengthy debunking I found:

Either she is completely disingenuous, a complete idiot, or in denial bordering on delusion. I am stupider for having listened to her. Here are the highlights so you don’t have to watch yourself.

About 11 min “I had this virus in January” Doubtful.

About 11 min “your immune system clears it after 10 days and then you are immune for life” Unknown, but called into question from several longitudinal antibody studies.

About 11 min “so then you’re not a case” (after infection) She does not understand basic case definition.

About 12 min “under 50… will have no issue” Completely false.

About 12 min “there is no need for the lockdown” Dangerously naive.

About 16 min shows chart from April claiming March peak. Dated and known to be wrong.

About 17 min “COVID-19 had its peak on the 22nd of March” Reality called: that is not even remotely true!

About 17 min “The population in America cleared the virus, most of them, you know within 10 days and the virus is gone.” The month of May calls her a liar.

About 17 min “There is absolutely no need for lockdown” (in the US). This ignorance will get people killed.

About 17 min “We have never in the hundreds of years of infectious diseases quarantined healthy people.” Wrong. Social distancing of various kinds has been done since at least the Plague of Athens 2,500 years ago through to 532 through to the 14th Century through to the last great pandemic 100 years ago when it was practiced in almost every major city in the US. Oh yeah, in China, Italy, UK, etc. this year. The literal definition of “quarantine” (as opposed to isolation) is “restriction of healthy individuals potentially exposed to the disease.” She is utterly clueless here.

About 24 min in the video: "SARS virus circulated in 2003 and essentially every 3 or 4 years since so people are immune. Everyone in the world is practically immune." Wrong. Wrong. And Wrong. If she is bereft of the most basic understanding of the virus under consideration (SARS-CoV-2 not the previous, different, virus called SARS), how can she have anything of value to add to the topic?

About 25 min “no one would have died at all” if old people had taken vitamin C and D. This is borderline delusional.

As for the "expert" interviewed, while it appears that she has bonafide qualification, she has not published anything since 2015, and is now the chairperson of an alt-right Irish political party.

 

[harryopal1]

Moderation note: Earlier in this thread we have posted a warning not to post crazy conspiracy theory stuff. I have deleted one such Youtube posted just now, and going forward will have very little tolerance for such content, or those who post it."

Ohh dear, so I have made the crazy list. To tell the truth I did not wade through the full video but threw it up for a bit of entertainment.

I understand that as moderator you have the delete button. I don't envy you that moderation task. A heavy responsibility defining who is and who isn't crazy. There was a time when the earth was flat and then a crazy astronomer called Gallileo got into strife for his foolish arguments against the conventional wisdom that the sun circled the earth. And I am not likening the video professor to Gallileo.

I wonder if Trump is on the crazy list as he seems to be fond of conspiracy theories? Incidentally I don't subscribe to the notion that we are all victims of some kind of Covid conspiracy. But we do have waves of contradictory theories from all kinds of experts on how to deal with this crisis. So perhaps I could be added to the confused list rather than the crazy list.

In case this sounds sarcastic, let me hasten to add my appreciation of moderators and others who keep this forum going.

My apologies to Puspawarna for bobbing up again after saying I was retiring from the discussion.

 

[R Cameron]

Vaccines work. The path for it to become certified is so mind bogglingly complicated and expensive (on purpose) so the end product is fit for mass consumption.

I agree, and I sincerely hope they maintain the same rigor for a Covid vaccine, because the political pressures (more so than financial) to rush are very strong.

 

[Nimbus]

Did the garbage known as the ‘plandemic’ video get posted here? I missed it. Well, actually I don’t.

 

[Saffer]

As for the "expert" interviewed, while it appears that she has bonafide qualification, she has not published anything since 2015, and is now the chairperson of an alt-right Irish political party.

While I understand the "my house, my rules" policy with regard to moderation, I get the impression that counter-arguments are stifled. So would it be safe to assume that any dissent from the established narrative and especially an alt-right view is verboten on this website?
I'm straight out asking because this might not be the place for me in that case.

 

[dafluff]

While I understand the "my house, my rules" policy with regard to moderation, I get the impression that counter-arguments are stifled. So would it be safe to assume that any dissent from the established narrative and especially an alt-right view is verboten on this website?
I'm straight out asking because this might not be the place for me in that case.

If the quoted below is your definition of alt-right, then yes. We do not welcome white supremacist views on this website.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right

The alt-right, an abbreviation of alternative right, is a loosely connected far-right, white nationalist movement based in the United States. A largely online phenomenon, the alt-right originated in the U.S. during the 2010s, although it has since established a presence in various other countries. The term is ill-defined, having been used in different ways by various self-described "alt-rightists", media commentators, and academics. Groups which have been identified as alt-right also espouse white supremacism, white separatism, severe immigration restrictions, and antisemitism.

 

[colroe]

I viewed the Plandemic video. Nothing of note but a focus on conspiracy theories. There was no mention of White Supremacism that I can recall. Alt Right, like most of these titles, can be interpreted in so many ways. However I do applaud moderators being careful, as long as the moderation is balanced fairly.