You might want to check that 'Carl Icahn is reputable' bit.When you consult a licensed doctor or visit a hospital, or when you seek advice from a registered lawyer or engineer, you can trust that you're receiving expert guidance. At the very least, their opinion is informed by education and training, making it more reliable than that of the average person without such qualifications.
Why do people send their children to schools and universities to learn basic literacy, math skills, or specialised subjects? Because they trust that these institutions provide instruction from experts in their respective fields.
Very few people in this forum have witnessed WWI or WWII firsthand, yet how many actually doubt that these wars occurred? Hardly any, because numerous reputable history books document them. Those who wish to investigate further can conduct a concordance study or examine the records for inconsistencies
Most people haven’t personally witnessed the wars in the Middle East or the conflict between Russia and Ukraine. Yet, few doubt that these events are actually happening. Why? Because they are widely reported by reputable newspapers, television networks, and trusted journalists who provide photos and video footage. These reports can be cross-checked for consistency. In contrast, when information comes from random individuals on the internet, whose identities and credentials are unknown, it’s much harder to verify or trust.
Why have so many people lost money by following strategies from unknown stock or forex traders they found online? Because they were sold a dream the promise of turning $10,000 into a million within a year (say). Now compare that to learning from reputable, billionaire investors like Warren Buffett, Peter Lynch, Ray Dalio, George Soros, or Carl Icahn, the difference in credibility and proven success is clear.
What happens when people post in online forums? Anyone can make any claim they like, as there's no requirement to provide proof of their credentials or the like. While users can review someone's post history to assess their reputation or consistency, that’s not the same as verifying their credentials, expertise, or professional background.
When someone shares information in a forum supported by verifiable facts and reputable sources, doesn’t that hold more credibility than just a random personal opinion online? Personally, I know where I stand on that, and I’m confident about what the vast majority of people would think as well. That being said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and is free to ignore this post.
INFORMATION AND COMMUNITY FOR EXPATS IN INDONESIA
'Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia' Rallies for Its Caliphate
- Thread starter serious_fun
- Start date
And how many times did I mention this ?
"The key point is that in discussions on this forum a few years ago, many believed laws criminalising premarital sex and cohabitation would never be passed in Indonesia yet they were, just months later. "
Whether or not these laws are actively enforced, or it is difficult to trigger is not the point; the fact remains that the laws now exist. So people trying to convince other people using their personal opinion got it wrong (you know who you are). This is credibility and reputation isn't it ?? If not enough extreme religious base organisation, grass root support, political party using them as a vehicle or want them, why were they passed in the parliament in the first instance?
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You really like moving the goal posts huh? Didn't you say that local doctors buy their degrees? You still trust them over anyone else because they have a piece of paper?
You know this is an Internet forum for expats right? Not a site full of experts for hire, even though we may all have expertise in different things. Look back though history at people like Galileo who knew the truth but couldn't tell it. Plenty of cases like that and my point was that just because it hasn't been published in the news doesn't make it not true any more that it being published in the news makes it true. I much prefer to take in all the information and weigh it myself.
Oh certainly, discussion in trading, saving and investment is one of my favourite subject and interest. I actually do learn from many people, including people named in post #59, people in this forum and other people. I also learn from people success and failure as well as from my previous win and loss.
And now about Carl Ichan Track Record:
He is widely recognised for his "activist investor" strategy. He targets undervalued or underperforming companies, acquires significant equity stakes, and then advocates for changes, such as leadership replacements, asset sales, or strategic realignments to enhance shareholder value. This approach has resulted in substantial profits across a range of high-profile investments.
He has amassed a multi-billion dollar fortune through decades of strategic investing, corporate takeovers, and shareholder activism. His investment vehicle, Icahn Enterprises L.P., has delivered strong returns over the long term, despite some recent volatility.
Forbes has consistently ranked him among the wealthiest individuals in the United States, with his net worth fluctuating but generally remaining in the multi-billion-dollar range.
Certainly, there is critics about him especially regarding 'the Icahn lift' effect where a stock's price tends to rise simply after he discloses a stake in the company, that could effect other investors and traders both ways either bad or good.
Those who have interest in investment and trading, we could share interest in a more appropriate thread in here:
How do you guys invest?
Im curious for UK, Aussie or US expats in Indonesia on how you are investing. Do you use a company such as vanguard and if so do you use an address in a home country as i dont think they allow Indonesian residents? Or if not Vanguard is there another company that you use? Im a bit of a doom...
www.expatindo.org
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I'll try again. Yes a law was passed. But no the law doesn't really criminalize premarital sex and cohabitation because of the restrictions on reporting and enforcement written into the law. So the result is that there is effectively no law criminalizing said behavior. It's not a matter of whether it's enforced, it's a matter of the law's wording.
He's famous for his methods, which are very disreputable.Oh certainly, discussion in trading, saving and investment is one of my favourite subject and interest. I actually do learn from many people, including people named in post #59, people in this forum and other people. I also learn from people success and failure as well as from my previous win and loss.
And now about Carl Ichan Track Record:
He is widely recognised for his "activist investor" strategy. He targets undervalued or underperforming companies, acquires significant equity stakes, and then advocates for changes, such as leadership replacements, asset sales, or strategic realignments to enhance shareholder value. This approach has resulted in substantial profits across a range of high-profile investments.
He has amassed a multi-billion dollar fortune through decades of strategic investing, corporate takeovers, and shareholder activism. His investment vehicle, Icahn Enterprises L.P., has delivered strong returns over the long term, despite some recent volatility.
Forbes has consistently ranked him among the wealthiest individuals in the United States, with his net worth fluctuating but generally remaining in the multi-billion-dollar range.
Certainly, there is critics about him especially regarding 'the Icahn lift' effect where a stock's price tends to rise simply after he discloses a stake in the company, that could effect other investors and traders both ways either bad or good.
Those who have interest in investment and trading, we could share interest in a more appropriate thread in here:
How do you guys invest?
Im curious for UK, Aussie or US expats in Indonesia on how you are investing. Do you use a company such as vanguard and if so do you use an address in a home country as i dont think they allow Indonesian residents? Or if not Vanguard is there another company that you use? Im a bit of a doom...
Shadrach
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As far as Extremist wanting a Caliphate. I think it would be a very dangerous mistake for Indonesia to allow these type of teachings be allowed! Just watch the Movie Hotel Mumbai, and see what the Extremist think. They are taught that Allah wants them to Kill infidels! 
I pointed out the corrupt practices involved in the entrance exams and training processes for medical students, particularly at top state universities in Indonesia. However, I never used the phrase "buy their degrees" that may have been someone else’s wording. While graduates from these programs may have substandard knowledge, many reasonable people still consider them more qualified than individuals with no formal medical training. This is probably the doctor @Shadrach saw when he asked to have his skin cancer examined.
In many situations, Indonesian people or foreigners, have no choice but to rely on them. Also keep in mind there are still reasonable number of them get a proper education and training passed the entry, and other examinations in a normal way before they start their medical careers.To me, “buying a degree” implies paying money to receive a certificate without attending lectures or undergoing any proper training. This is common with certain unaccredited institutions often in fields like business or social sciences that offer online degrees like BA, MBA, DBA, or PhD in exchange for payment, without requiring real academic effort. Very few, if any, such institutions offer medical degrees to individuals with no medical background for obvious reasons. There simply isn't a market for it. It would be irrational, even dangerous, for someone to obtain a certificate claiming to be a surgeon or heart surgeon (say) without proper medical training to be used to practice as a surgeon. They will end up in jail.
I'm fully aware of that. However, comparing Galileo's opinion, one of the greatest scientific thinkers in history and his contributions to our understanding of the universe, to individuals like @Hawk256 or @Bob, opinion, claim without providing evidence or citing, linking it to credible sources, law, regulation is completely inappropriate.
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Nope, the law exists and it is called the Indonesian Criminal Code. Legal journalists also refer to it that way and have reported on this new legislation.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-63838213 Indonesia passes criminal code banning sex outside marriage
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/12/6/indonesia-passes-legislation-outlawing-sex-outside-marriage Indonesia passes new criminal code, outlaws sex outside marriage
Whether or not these laws are actively enforced, or it is difficult to trigger is not the point; the fact remains that the laws now exist. So people trying to convince other people using their personal opinion got it wrong.
The law is there, it is written in the Indonesian Criminal Code (KUHP) UU_No_1_2023, more specifically article 411. Any person who has sexual intercourse with someone who is not his/her husband or wife and the family member such as parents, wife/husband or child report them, that person has committed a crime. Families might do this for various reasons, including fanaticism or the belief that their personal values, religious fanaticism must be imposed on other family members, the adults.
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Nobody at the time knew that Galileo was one of the greatest minds of all times. That wasn't determined until well after his death. Maybe @Bob is a contender. Can you say with 100% certainty that he is not?I'm fully aware of that. However, comparing Galileo's opinion, one of the greatest scientific thinkers in history and his contributions to our understanding of the universe, to individuals like @Hawk256 or @Bob, opinion, claim without providing evidence or citing, linking it to credible sources, law, regulation is completely inappropriate.
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The Indonesian Criminal Code is the book, not the paragraph. You’re spinning in circles and I’m trying to get a stump to gain sentience. You keep coming back to enforcement. The law’s being enforced. It’s not being applied against the vast overwhelming almost unanimous majority of people who engage in that behaviour because it can’t be because of the way it’s written. The law specifies who must make a complaint to start the legal process and it’s an extremely limited list. But you’ll ignore all that and cry about an oppressive law that doesn’t affect anyone.
Ohh Absolutely, with 100% Certainty.
This is the definition, of contender from an authoritative source.
CONTENDER Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
CONTENDER definition: a person or group that competes against others to win something; contestant. See examples of contender used in a sentence.
www.dictionary.com
a person or group with a good chance of success in a contest".
Galileo Galilei era was between 15 February 1564 and 8 January 1642
Galileo Galilei - Wikipedia
If someone wants to present a person as a contender who wasn’t even born at that time, it would imply that anyone, be it their children, grandchildren, or future descendants could be considered a contender as well. Anyone thinks that’s a reasonable comparison ? If so then, at least I’ve found the right contenders, billion of them for @Hawk256 and @Bob now
When people references credible sources, such as experts, reputable news, journalist's reports, laws, or regulations, they're not simply sharing their own opinion. They're presenting the viewpoints or work of those authoritative sources. Especially when citing laws or regulations, it's not personal interpretation, it's what the law states.
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Did I say otherwise ? I mentioned KUHP (Kitab undang Hukum Pidana). Kitab (Indonesian) means Book. This is also known as Law No1 / year 2023. I even mention the specific article about this adultery law, having sexual intercourse with someone who is not his/her husband or wife which as stipulated in article 411. The condition to trigger article 411 is stated in Article 411 & 412.
People keep twisting things around or someone keeps spinning an obvious issue and then accusing others for doing the same. But the law is there: it's written in Articles 411 and 412 of the KUHP. That’s a FACT.
Having a condition that triggers the application of a law doesn’t mean the law doesn’t exist, Take another example, if someone gives you money as a gift but with a condition, it can only be used in an emergency (say) that doesn’t mean the money (gift) isn’t real or traceable. The gift is there, just with condition attached.
Whether or not these laws are actively enforced, or it is difficult to trigger is not the point; the fact remains that the laws now exist. So people trying to convince other people using their personal opinion got it wrong.
That may be your personal opinion and perspective, but it's certainly not the case for everyone. In fact, such situations aren't as rare or impossible as they may seem. It's entirely plausible for a family member to report another adult family member for committing adultery. Families may do this for a range of reasons, including religious fanaticism or the belief that their own values must be imposed on others. In some developed countries, there have even been cases where parents have gone as far as killing their own adult children for defying their family values, religion & belief; so reporting them to the police for committing adultery is not beyond horizon.
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You do understand that I was saying @Bob might be a contender to be as smart as Galieo, we don't know. Don't know what tangent you went off on but congratulations, you filled half a page with BS.Ohh Absolutely, with 100% Certainty.
This is the definition, of contender from an authoritative source.
"a person or group that competes against others to win something;CONTENDER Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
CONTENDER definition: a person or group that competes against others to win something; contestant. See examples of contender used in a sentence.
a person or group with a good chance of success in a contest".
Galileo Galilei era was between 15 February 1564 and 8 January 1642
Presenting @Bob as a contender of Galileo Galilei would imply that Bob would now be between 363 and 461 years old.Galileo Galilei - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
If someone wants to present a person as a contender who wasn’t even born at that time, it would imply that anyone, be it their children, grandchildren, or future descendants could be considered a contender as well. Anyone thinks that’s a reasonable comparison ? If so then, at least I’ve found the right contenders, billion of them for @Hawk256 and @Bob now
When people references credible sources, such as experts, reputable news, journalist's reports, laws, or regulations, they're not simply sharing their own opinion. They're presenting the viewpoints or work of those authoritative sources. Especially when citing laws or regulations, it's not personal interpretation, it's what the law states.
Yes: "the law exists and it is called the Indonesian Criminal Code".
You continue to deny the reality that the law is practically meaningless. That's up to you of course. I guess It's so you can complain about it. There's no apparent reason to otherwise care about it.
That's remotely possible but very unlikely. How many families would want to attract publicity like that?
That's how the media, international community have interpreted Indonesia’s Law No. 1 of 2023 .e.g Indonesia's Criminal Code. I included the link in an earlier post and referred to it as the KUHP, citing the specific article.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/12/6/indonesia-passes-legislation-outlawing-sex-outside-marriage Indonesia passes new criminal code, outlaws sex outside marriage
Meaningless? Hardly. See post #62.
If there weren't enough extremist religious organisations, grass roots support, or political parties backing or wanting these laws, then why were they passed by parliament in the first place?
Very unlikely? Well, I have to wonder if some people are simply denying that real cases exist, not just in developing countries, but in developed ones too. A quick search will turn up examples. It’s similar to when someone claimed that the Indonesian police’s statement about terrorism links to certain religious boarding schools was fake.
When it comes to ideology and deeply held beliefs, some groups are willing to commit suicide bomber, or even kill their own family members, so why would they be scared of mere bad publicity?
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To demonstrate the difference, when someone cites authoritative sources, it stands apart from mere opinions shared by random individuals online.
Also at least by now, I could find contender for @Bob using @Hawk256 definition of contenders and how he compares someone random in the internet with Galileo Galilei (refer to post #72)
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You like to hear yourself talk don't you?. You have went off on another strange tangent just to make yourself fell like you are accomplishing something. If a person witnessed a crime but the media didn't cover it, and their IQ was below genius level, should they be believed? Or if something happened but wasn't published, did it really happen? You put so much strength in publishing. If you want to continue this ridiculous argument, at least keep it on track and honest.To demonstrate the difference, when someone cites authoritative sources, it stands apart from mere opinions shared by random individuals online.
Also at least by now, I could find contender for @Bob using @Hawk256 definition of contenders and how he compares someone random in the internet with Galileo Galilei (refer to post #72)
Use your own method and prove to me that @Bob isn't as smart as Galileo.
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The point is that it's a small part of the Criminal Code, not the entire code.
To get the fringe groups to shut up. If the extremists are as strong as you'd like us to believe, the law would actually effectively criminalize the mentioned behavior. But it doesn't.
Other countries aren't the topic.
That kind of person wouldn't pursue legal channels.
Send up a flare if and when the sky actually does start to fall. As of now you're like the boy who cried wolf and that doesn't help protect your interests.
As a matter of fact I've been known to prove that clearly and often.
But I have serious doubts that your correspondent can.
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