'Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia' Rallies for Its Caliphate

There are evidence which have also been confirmed by the police that some graduates of these boarding schools (pesantren and madrasas) have involved in acts of terrorism, the destruction of places of worship belonging to other faiths, entertainment venues, and the destruction of people's livelihoods see post #34.
There is also some speculation that some of the these people aren't who authorities have said they are and "evidence" is pretty thin in a lot of places. I know a few cases like this and I can tell you that the accusations are way off. At best you have some level of speculation but it is not not even solid speculation.
 
The Bali Bombing in Kuta, The Twin Towers in New York, American Embassy in Beirut, Etc. This is definitely Not from the Teachings of Mohammed. And you say the Government subsidies these Schools?
How can all the Good Hearted Muslims, allow this to Continue? 🤷🏾‍♀️🤦🏾
No one doing these things are a true Muslim and like I stated earlier in the post, it isn't that easy to know who is actually involved and who isn't. A lot of "evidence" never seems to come to fruition when it's actually needed. Very easy for a government to take someone down a few notches, especially when they don't really have to prove it.
 
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I wonder whether you read the post #1 and the title of this thread as well as the attachment before asking this question. Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia' Rallies for Its Caliphate (khilafah) is the title of this thread. Other proponent of Caliphate (khilafah) is Majelis Mujahidin Indonesia (MMI), Jamaah Ansharut Daulah (JAD), FPI (to some extends in the past)
Those are fringe groups. Is there really a movement with significant popular and financial support that has at least a moderate chance to accomplish what you’re worried about?
In the past, there have also been multiple attempts to promote changes targeting the UUD 1945 and to reshape Indonesia’s national identity, including key symbols like Garuda Pancasila. Some of these efforts openly advocated for the creation of an Islamic State of Indonesia and implementation of shariah law. All of these are well documented in the history books. While these attempts were still unsuccessful, they clearly demonstrate that there is a significant number of people who support the idea of establishing such a state.

A few examples:
DI/TII, The Darul Islam/Indonesian Islamic Army Rebellion. This rebellion aimed to replace Pancasila with Islamic law as the basis of the state. As this is history There are tons of book and information about this on the web
https://www.kompas.com/stori/read/2...la-dengan-ideologi-lain-pada-awal-kemerdekaan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darul_Islam_(Indonesia)

Piagam Jakarta (Jakarta Charter) In the past, there was an attempt to include the Jakarta Charter (which contains the phrase "with the obligation to implement Islamic law for its adherents") as part of the 1945 Constitution. However, after debate and consideration, seven words in the Jakarta Charter were removed from the Preamble to the 1945 Constitution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakarta_Charter
https://www.kompas.com/stori/read/2023/10/11/170000779/penghapusan-tujuh-kata-dalam-piagam-jakarta#:~:text=Pada tanggal 18 Agustus 1945,mengusulkan pemisahan agama dan negara.
Yes there have been such movements. At one time PKI and Permesta were influential too. The question is about today though.
As mentioned earlier in this thread, there was a poll indicates that the majority of Indonesians support Sharia law. (Post#4 & Post#9). This is another poll from a long standing and highly reputable institution ISEAS (Institute of Southeast Asian Studies)
https://www.dw.com/en/why-are-more-indonesians-favoring-shariah/a-40471411 Indonesians favour Shariah

You or others might question the validity or credibility of those polls, but instead of simply disputing them, the most effective way to counter them is by presenting an alternative poll from a reputable institution that shows a different outcome. Even if the results aren't perfectly accurate, they still demonstrate that a significant number of people in Indonesia support shariah law.
The polls don't necessarily indicate what you say they do. @Hawk256 mentioned it already, and even the DW article pointed out that there's a question as to what sharia the respondents meant. In daily life it means things like marriage matters and inheritance. Did you notice the sharia approval share cited by DW is 39%?
Regarding Aceh, 'jstar' has already addressed it. It's largely irrelevant to link a major natural disaster (presumably the tsunami) to Aceh's desire to implement Sharia law. The push for Sharia law predates the tsunami by many years, as there are enough people keep pushing it within the province.
Jstar didn't address the point though. You say implementation of sharia in Aceh is a template. I say that how they implemented it can't be duplicated so it's not a template.
I fail to understand this question. When I said this, "Graduates of this certain religious schools rarely succeed in competitive academic environments such as gaining entry to top state universities through standard competitive entrance exams, be part of Indonesian team to take part in the International Physics Olympiad or receive scholarships from Indonesian government and/or foreign government, NGOs, to attend top tier universities abroad. If they received such things, it is mainly based on political quota rather than competitive base. " I am talking about fact. There are numerous sources highlighting the performance of these boarding schools compared to other private, mainstream schools that promote diversity. It is not very difficult to see the reason behind it.

Regarding demographics, it is very clear which schools run by religious-based organisations have more student. In terms of funding, it is a fact that Islamic boarding schools (pesantren and madrasas) receive more state funding compared to private schools run by other religious groups in Indonesia. Apparently, when quality education is offered, people are willing to pay more for it.
I'll try to word it a little differently. You indicate two school groups, a) Islamic, and b) other private, and highlight the difference in how well the students of each do. What school(s) do the science whiz kids attend? Are they from the city or the country, are they rich or poor, have they had access to technology from a young age or not, etc.?
Are we comparing Ghandi, Kanasius, SPH, etc. to al Azhar or to average Islamic schools? Are we comparing small town or rural religious schools of different religions? For example, how do Catholic school students in Manggarai Flores do compared with Islamic school students there?
How is the difference in government funding measured: per pupil, overall, or otherwise? Why does that difference exist? Is it because of differences in other source funding?
You have asked similar question in the previous thread Post #23 Post#14 (see the link below) about where this boarding school students fit in to that narrative. And I have shared a few links

The involvement of former boarding school students in bombings, destruction of house of worship of other religions, entertainment industry in Indonesia, which has also been confirmed by the police is well documented. There are a lot of information about this available online. Another link
"One of the fugitives in the suicide bombing case in Solo City last month, was named by the police as an alumnus of the Al-Mukmin Islamic boarding school in Sukoharjo City, Central Java."
We were discussing mixed marriages and blasphemy laws.
The facts have already been outlined above. Groups like Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia, Majelis Mujahidin Indonesia (MMI), Jamaah Ansharut Daulah (JAD), and FPI are well-documented in both news reports and historical records. Also consider the result of a few polls demonstrate that a significant number of people in Indonesia support shariah law. Is this fearmongering? When fact is presented, it might scare some people but facts is typically not considered as scaremongering. It might take decades for anything significant to unfold, but the point is, if these developments continue unchecked or are met with complacency, the eventual outcome is predictable.
It's a weak argument. It really looks like fear mongering.
The key point is that in discussions on this forum a few years ago, many believed laws criminalising premarital sex and cohabitation would never be passed in Indonesia yet they were, just months later. Whether or not these laws are actively enforced is a separate issue; the fact remains that the laws now exist. If not enough extreme religious base organisation, political party using them as a vehicle or want them, why were they passed in the parliament?

Have they truly changed people’s behaviour? Let wait and see. What is certain, however, is that these laws can now be used by parents or children against family members whose actions conflict with their Intense religious fanaticism and ideology. This marks a shift from the generally accepted norm that adult behaviour and religious choices are private matters, not subject to family interference.
The law is a token and is effectively meaningless to the big majority.
I've shared plenty of accessible links, and there are many relevant search terms available for anyone interested in exploring the topic further. When responding or refuting these points, please do so in the same manner using credible sources and not relying solely on personal, uninformed opinions.
That's a two way street.
 
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There is also some speculation that some of the these people aren't who authorities have said they are and "evidence" is pretty thin in a lot of places. I know a few cases like this and I can tell you that the accusations are way off. At best you have some level of speculation but it is not not even solid speculation.
Ahhh I totally agree that people are free to express their own opinions. 😁😁😁
However, when the POLICE make official public statements, especially during a press conference without having solid evidence, they risk facing backlash or even legal consequences. Sharing inaccurate or misleading information could lead to dismissal of the policemen in charge. This is particularly serious when it involves matters affecting the broader public interest that could mobilise the fully funded public mass demonstration, mob.

Would any sensible person intentionally try to mislead the public during a press conference, knowing that the information can be easily verified? Remember, if you mention a specific boarding school, that institution will have records of both current students and alumni. And in this case, we’re not just talking about any institution, we’re talking about the police.

Remember, if there is a solid ground for it, certain individuals, particularly those frequently seen in white robes and turbans can be quickly mobilised. 'Nasi bungkus' and/or 'uang rokok' will be enough to commit such action.

This sort of public mass demonstration, mob could easily be seen on the street during 'Ahok' blasphemy trial.
 

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Are you sure this is Fake News? It says it's a Aceh Code, established by the Aceh Parliament is it a Parliament code or not? Why are Women so Oppressed in Sharia Law? Why can't they wear whatever clothing they want? Show their Beautiful long Black Hair? Be a Major Head in the Government making decisions? How about they make a Sharia law that states all Muslim Men must wear Black clothing from Head to Toe, covering the Eyes, and not be allowed to go out after 11:00 P.M. without a Woman, wearing whatever clothing she wants? Equal rights for All. Equal education for All. Anyone found Promoting Hatred, Abusing Women, Children, propaganda Against the West, should receive 100 lashes at the Public Square! This sounds Fair to Me! 👍🙏✌️🫵
A little bit of study and forethought and it wouldn't come out sounding so ignorant. Look at the good with the bad, meaning there are distinct benefits to being female too. . Maybe compare with other scriptures.
 
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Ahhh I totally agree that people are free to express their own opinions. 😁😁😁
However, when the POLICE make official public statements, especially during a press conference without having solid evidence, they risk facing backlash or even legal consequences. Sharing inaccurate or misleading information could lead to dismissal of the policemen in charge. This is particularly serious when it involves matters affecting the broader public interest that could mobilise the fully funded public mass demonstration, mob.

Would any sensible person intentionally try to mislead the public during a press conference, knowing that the information can be easily verified? Remember, if you mention a specific boarding school, that institution will have records of both current students and alumni. And in this case, we’re not just talking about any institution, we’re talking about the police.

Remember, if there is a solid ground for it, certain individuals, particularly those frequently seen in white robes and turbans can be quickly mobilised. 'Nasi bungkus' and/or 'uang rokok' will be enough to commit such action.

This sort of public mass demonstration, mob could easily be seen on the street during 'Ahok' blasphemy trial.
Who is going to challenge what the police say is true if that it what the government want's people to think? You talk about how bad corruption is here but the police are all of a sudden straight up on giving information that they will never have to prove and also so happens to push their narrative? How will the information be easily be verified either way? Very easy to ruin someone in public opinion and never have to prove a word of it and no is going to make you.
 
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A little bit of study and forethought and it wouldn't come out sounding so ignorant. Look at the good with the bad, meaning there are distinct benefits to being female too. . Maybe compare with other scriptures.
The same poster in all his knowledge of Islam, didn't even know why Adam, Eve or other Biblical figures would be mentioned in the Quran but now he is an Islamic scholar.
 
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Who is going to challenge what the police say is true if that it what the government want's people to think? You talk about how bad corruption is here but the police are all of a sudden straight up on giving information that they will never have to prove and also so happens to push their narrative? How will the information be easily be verified either way? Very easy to ruin someone in public opinion and never have to prove a word of it and no is going to make you.
Ahhh, it is very interesting, isn't it! :p :p :p
This information may have been overlooked ?
"Remember, if you mention a specific boarding school, that institution will have records of both current students and alumni. .." The particular institution is named in public, in front of the press conference. Would it be hard to verify whether someone is a student or graduate of a certain boarding school? Especially since the institution itself, who hold the registration record, would likely deny any false claims, as such misinformation could damage its reputation.

Not to mention the media; if they had evidence to the contrary, sharing it would likely boost their credibility and public standing. Moreover, the issue affects both the general public and specific groups known for their ability to organise well-funded mass protests or demonstrations.
 
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As has been argued previously in this thread backed up with evidence, in a country like Indonesia, as long as grassroots support persists along with the main political parties and politicians who benefit from it, the desire to establish a caliphate in Indonesia will not disappear.

In Indonesia evidences and arguments have been provided in post #21, #22, #27, #34. Another one that might be considered is the existence of jihadists and their stongholds. Also there are still Indonesians, who joined ISIS/DAESH in the past and their desire to establish a distant caliphate, so keep in mind the ideology still exist supported by the grass root, politicians and political party. The number joining ISIS might be small due to the challenge in logistic for Indonesian people and initial funding requirement to travel abroad, but this is just another evidence that there are still people with a strong determination of the caliphate establishment and would want to do jihadist to establish their ideology.

Those men, Amrozi, Mukhlas, Idris, Mubarok who were involved in the deadly Bali bombings on 12 October 2002 have something in common, they all graduated from the same boarding schools. Take a look at these innocent children, they've been subjected to indoctrination from a young age. Many of these children come from impoverished backgrounds, with limited education and little exposure to the broader world. Often confined to their communities or villages during childhood, they are especially vulnerable to indoctrination. Remaining in poverty, they can be easily influenced with 'nasi kotak', pocket money, a pair of white robe and sorban, that reinforce their beliefs and ideology.


_63875997_children-in-arabic-class.jpg
 
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Without religious indoctrination, people would drift away from religion, money for religious institutions would dry up (as in the West), people would find better things to do with their time.
That's why the Indonesian religious-political complex will never allow religious indoctrination to be taken out of schools.
 
Without religious indoctrination, people would drift away from religion, money for religious institutions would dry up (as in the West), people would find better things to do with their time.
That's why the Indonesian religious-political complex will never allow religious indoctrination to be taken out of schools.
I like this comment very much. Finally someone speaks the Truth! The People have had enough of Mind Control, by a few zealots that want to exploit the poor, so that they can live in Luxury for free! People need to Stop living in Fear of condemnation, for just being People, and taking care of their families first, before Religious Institutions! Spirituality is a personal experience. It should not have a price tag on it! A person can love their God and take care of the Earth, and their families and be Proud of it!
If People want to do this in the midst of others, that's fine, But it should not be an obligation. It should be done out of Love, Freely and share their Love in Joy, Not Fear! Definitely separate Church and Schools, and State! 🙏👍✌️🕊️
 
As has been argued previously in this thread backed up with evidence, in a country like Indonesia, as long as grassroots support persists along with the main political parties and politicians who benefit from it, the desire to establish a caliphate in Indonesia will not disappear.

In Indonesia evidences and arguments have been provided in post #21, #22, #27, #34. Another one that might be considered is the existence of jihadists and their stongholds. Also there are still Indonesians, who joined ISIS/DAESH in the past and their desire to establish a distant caliphate, so keep in mind the ideology still exist supported by the grass root, politicians and political party. The number joining ISIS might be small due to the challenge in logistic for Indonesian people and initial funding requirement to travel abroad, but this is just another evidence that there are still people with a strong determination of the caliphate establishment and would want to do jihadist to establish their ideology.

Those men, Amrozi, Mukhlas, Idris, Mubarok who were involved in the deadly Bali bombings on 12 October 2002 have something in common, they all graduated from the same boarding schools. Take a look at these innocent children, they've been subjected to indoctrination from a young age. Many of these children come from impoverished backgrounds, with limited education and little exposure to the broader world. Often confined to their communities or villages during childhood, they are especially vulnerable to indoctrination. Remaining in poverty, they can be easily influenced with 'nasi kotak', pocket money, a pair of white robe and sorban, that reinforce their beliefs and ideology.


View attachment 4989
There's still no convincing argument here that what you fear is a real possibility. Those wanting establishment of a caliphate in Indonesia are a small fringe of the total population. Where's real evidence of popular support today and substantial funding? Those referenced posts don't contain that.
 
There's still no convincing argument here that what you fear is a real possibility. Those wanting establishment of a caliphate in Indonesia are a small fringe of the total population. Where's real evidence of popular support today and substantial funding? Those referenced posts don't contain that.
Nothing like a good fear mongering from time to time to keep things in check.
 
There's still no convincing argument here that what you fear is a real possibility. Those wanting establishment of a caliphate in Indonesia are a small fringe of the total population. Where's real evidence of popular support today and substantial funding? Those referenced posts don't contain that.
People are certainly entitled to their own personal opinion. Do not forget the discussions in this forum a few years ago, many believed laws criminalising premarital sex and cohabitation would never pass in Indonesia, boom yet they did just months later. And yet, in this thread a few people still query the role of the boarding school in terrorism, suicide bomb in Indonesia even the fact is presented by the police. You know who you are. 🤭 🤭 🤭

In the modern era, like the title of this thread, the groups like Hizb ut-Tahrir Indonesia (HTI) and remnants of Jemaah Islamiyah have openly called for the re-establishment of a caliphate and their ideas continue to circulate online, in religious schools, and among disillusioned youth. Aceh is a done deal. Other proponent of Caliphate (khilafah) is Majelis Mujahidin Indonesia (MMI), Jamaah Ansharut Daulah (JAD). In the past FPI, DI/TII, The Darul Islam/Indonesian Islamic Army Rebellion. Piagam Jakarta (Jakarta Charter). There have been a systematic attempt to change the constitution (UUD45) and reshape Indonesian the Indonesia’s foundational ideological symbols (Garuda Pancasila) (Post #21, #22, #27). There was an old and a relatively recent poll indicates that significant number of Indonesians support Sharia law (Post#4, #9, #34). These are all facts, not personal opinion. Typically facts should be met with facts, not personal opinion.

As long as grass roots boarding schools continue to indoctrinate children and the movement gains momentum, supported by the political party, politicians, the direction it’s heading and where it may ultimately lead is entirely predictable. The establishment of a caliphate in Indonesia may not be imminent, might not be in your generation, but it is certainly not a distant possibility and that reality demands vigilance, nuanced policy, and a reminder the benefit of the nation's pluralistic principles.

I've shared plenty of accessible and verifiable links, in this thread and there are many relevant search terms available for anyone interested in exploring the topic further. When responding or refuting these points, please do so in the same manner using credible sources and not relying solely on personal opinions.
 
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People are certainly entitled to their own personal opinion.

I've shared plenty of accessible and verifiable links, in this thread and there are many relevant search terms available for anyone interested in exploring the topic further. When responding or refuting these points, please do so in the same manner using credible sources and not relying solely on personal opinions.
So it's OK to have your opinion but when disagreeing with you on this forum, I must have sources from a credible news outlet that happened to say the same thing? There are things that I know are true that has never been reported on. Does that mean I am wrong to say them?
 
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Well, everyone Is entitled to my opinion.

It’s a funny quote but like a philosopher pointed out, it can be used to defend gut feeling nonsense which is not based on facts or expertise. And even worse, It can also imply that all opinions are equally valid, regardless of the speaker's knowledge or experience. That’s the post COVID world we live in now.

That’s the problem of a forum; you don’t know anything about the background of the people.

1750827933833.jpeg
 
Well, everyone Is entitled to my opinion.

It’s a funny quote but like a philosopher pointed out, it can be used to defend gut feeling nonsense which is not based on facts or expertise. And even worse, It can also imply that all opinions are equally valid, regardless of the speaker's knowledge or experience. That’s the post COVID world we live in now.

That’s the problem of a forum; you don’t know anything about the background of the people.

View attachment 5000
You get on a slippery slope where all information has to come from a verified source. Who get's to decide what should available for consumption? Sounds a little 1984 to me.
 
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So it's OK to have your opinion but when disagreeing with you on this forum, I must have sources from a credible news outlet that happened to say the same thing? There are things that I know are true that has never been reported on. Does that mean I am wrong to say them?

When you consult a licensed doctor or visit a hospital, or when you seek advice from a registered lawyer or engineer, you can trust that you're receiving expert guidance. At the very least, their opinion is informed by education and training, making it more reliable than that of the average person without such qualifications.

Why do people send their children to schools and universities to learn basic literacy, math skills, or specialised subjects? Because they trust that these institutions provide instruction from experts in their respective fields.

Very few people in this forum have witnessed WWI or WWII firsthand, yet how many actually doubt that these wars occurred? Hardly any, because numerous reputable history books document them. Those who wish to investigate further can conduct a concordance study or examine the records for inconsistencies

Most people haven’t personally witnessed the wars in the Middle East or the conflict between Russia and Ukraine. Yet, few doubt that these events are actually happening. Why? Because they are widely reported by reputable newspapers, television networks, and trusted journalists who provide photos and video footage. These reports can be cross-checked for consistency. In contrast, when information comes from random individuals on the internet, whose identities and credentials are unknown, it’s much harder to verify or trust.

Why have so many people lost money by following strategies from unknown stock or forex traders they found online? Because they were sold a dream the promise of turning $10,000 into a million within a year (say). Now compare that to learning from reputable, billionaire investors like Warren Buffett, Peter Lynch, Ray Dalio, George Soros, or Carl Icahn, the difference in credibility and proven success is clear.

What happens when people post in online forums? Anyone can make any claim they like, as there's no requirement to provide proof of their credentials or the like. While users can review someone's post history to assess their reputation or consistency, that’s not the same as verifying their credentials, expertise, or professional background.

When someone shares information in a forum supported by verifiable facts and reputable sources, doesn’t that hold more credibility than just a random personal opinion online? Personally, I know where I stand on that, and I’m confident about what the vast majority of people would think as well. That being said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and is free to ignore this post. :D:D:D:D
 
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People are certainly entitled to their own personal opinion. Do not forget the discussions in this forum a few years ago, many believed laws criminalising premarital sex and cohabitation would never pass in Indonesia, boom yet they did just months later. And yet, in this thread a few people still query the role of the boarding school in terrorism, suicide bomb in Indonesia even the fact is presented by the police. You know who you are. 🤭 🤭 🤭

In the modern era, like the title of this thread, the groups like Hizb ut-Tahrir Indonesia (HTI) and remnants of Jemaah Islamiyah have openly called for the re-establishment of a caliphate and their ideas continue to circulate online, in religious schools, and among disillusioned youth. Aceh is a done deal. Other proponent of Caliphate (khilafah) is Majelis Mujahidin Indonesia (MMI), Jamaah Ansharut Daulah (JAD). In the past FPI, DI/TII, The Darul Islam/Indonesian Islamic Army Rebellion. Piagam Jakarta (Jakarta Charter). There have been a systematic attempt to change the constitution (UUD45) and reshape Indonesian the Indonesia’s foundational ideological symbols (Garuda Pancasila) (Post #21, #22, #27). There was an old and a relatively recent poll indicates that significant number of Indonesians support Sharia law (Post#4, #9, #34). These are all facts, not personal opinion. Typically facts should be met with facts, not personal opinion.

As long as grass roots boarding schools continue to indoctrinate children and the movement gains momentum, supported by the political party, politicians, the direction it’s heading and where it may ultimately lead is entirely predictable. The establishment of a caliphate in Indonesia may not be imminent, might not be in your generation, but it is certainly not a distant possibility and that reality demands vigilance, nuanced policy, and a reminder the benefit of the nation's pluralistic principles.

I've shared plenty of accessible and verifiable links, in this thread and there are many relevant search terms available for anyone interested in exploring the topic further. When responding or refuting these points, please do so in the same manner using credible sources and not relying solely on personal opinions.
You'd be more believable with credible documentation and a coherent argument to back up your claims. So far it looks like one boarding school, a very few very fringe groups, and some movements that were quashed long ago make up your claim that a caliphate is nigh. From where I sit, probably much closer to those who you'd say may want a caliphate than you are, there's no real threat.
You keep bringing up the law about cohabitation and premarital sex. How many times must it be pointed out that the law effectively does nothing? You should be glad it's on the books. People are free to go about their business as before and if anyone agitates for a law against that they can be told that there's already one.
You also keep citing poll numbers in favor of sharia when it's been explained that for most it relates to family matters. Is there a reputable poll that shows strong support for sharia criminal law?
 

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