Wonders and curiosities

[Samoerai]

A lot has changed since 2011. There were no online taxis or food delivery services. Life is completely different now.
Every country has upwardly mobile middle classes, I don't think Indonesia is any different from other countries.
In terms of clusters of houses, down in Bogor for example in some clusters more than half of the houses have been empty for over a decade, they never managed to sell them.

I agree that nowadays people have more and easy (by mobile smartphone) access to online services, like Grab and Tokopedia.

I don't agree that Indonesia is like any other country. First of all. the fore mentioned 'culture of gengsi' and the strong social pressure that comes from it to follow a particular consumption pattern in line with, in this case, middle class lifestyle, does not exist in -as far as I know- in Europe. Second, The Netherlands 78 procent of the working people belongs to the middle class, thus a very large group of people have comparable income.

The observation is that in Indonesia an over-consumption exists because of this gengsi culture. The shops, restaurants, car and motor dealers make it easy for consumers to buy e.g. with kredit and cicilan. The question however is for how long? There must be a limit for the debt in total, people can bear. And then the whole economy will collapse.

It would be interesting to do a research about how much debt the pseudo middle class and genuine middle class have and if it is possible to predict when the whole thing will collapse.

 

[snpark]

Sounds like Dubai in the 2000's when every bartender drove an Audi TT or Porsche Boxster and everyone had multiple credit cards with $20,000 limits

 

[Samoerai]

Sounds like Dubai in the 2000's when every bartender drove an Audi TT or Porsche Boxster and everyone had multiple credit cards with $20,000 limits

"The Dubai property boom of the mid-2000s peaked in 2008 and plummeted in a wave of activity that saw large scale projects, including partially completed properties, abandoned. Many developers failed, while others, including those with government backing, entered into debt-restructuring deals with their lenders. By 2012 the market began picking up steam again. 2013 was a stellar year with prices accelerating significantly, however, the government and industry players began putting in place measures that would safeguard against another bubble developing. One notable difference is the number of cash buyers compared to those in previous years that borrowed heavily. Part of the reason for the current cash surge is the influx of investment from troubled countries."

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Never heard of gengsi, sounds like an anime character, but the concept of wanting higher social status exists everywhere. It's just human nature. In the UK it's called 'keeping up with the Joneses', in the US they say 'fake it till you make it'

 

[Samoerai]

Never heard of gengsi, sounds like an anime character, but the concept of wanting higher social status exists everywhere. It's just human nature. In the UK it's called 'keeping up with the Joneses', in the US they say 'fake it till you make it'

Yes, I know it is human nature, but in Indonesia 'gengsi' is institutionalized in society. Status is everything here. Indonesia still has 'strata'.

That's why status is very important. In this thread some posts mentioned that Indonesians will look at you in a funny way when you e.g. make your own house repairs. That's "tukang kerja's" work.

Here women, more than in other countries, all want to be seen with Louis Vuitton or better Dior or even more better a Birkin bag. Women (pribumi) want to marry a bule. Status! The dogs people have, are just status symbols. An Apple phone has a higher status than a Samsung phone. Going abroad on vacation is all about status. Photo, photo more important than actually minikmati the view. Driving a luxery Japanese car has more status than ordering a Grab. Going by bus? Pff, no way! The location of your house? Jakarta South? Wah, anak gaul! Sending your anak-anak to private school or even better International school. And later when they marry, harus .. a big wedding ceremony in a hotel with 500 guest. Photo, photo, photo. Having a Rolex watch. Playing golf, all about status. Just for photo aja. Lihat saya, keren! Which arisan do you attend? Ada yang Rp.50.000, ada yang 50 juta. And the women who attend the 50 juta warisan, all dress up and wear their Prada shoes and show off their Louis Vuitton bags.

Ask anybody here in Indonesia about 'gengsi'. Or better ask your wife, she can explain gengsi to you and then you will understand why she wants to have a landed house, why she wants a Hermes bag or why she wants a Gucci watch. To show off her status.

I live on top of a luxery mall. I see the "pseudo middle class" visit the mall on Saturnday and Sunday with their anak-anak not buying anything, makan di Solaria atau Bami GM. Just to be seen. And I am thinking "What are you doing here in the mall with all your children? This mall is not a good environment/ place for children". But then again, going to the mall is all about status.

 

[Bob]

Never heard of gengsi, sounds like an anime character, but the concept of wanting higher social status exists everywhere. It's just human nature. In the UK it's called 'keeping up with the Joneses', in the US they say 'fake it till you make it'

The gengsi / prestige thing isn't specific to Indonesia but it's very pronounced here and in similar cultures. Way back when, one of my Econ professors, who had spent a couple of years in country, used Central Java as a teaching example of low investment due to low savings due to most folks spending everything on rituals and celebrations, which at that time were what bestowed prestige. Society is much more materialistic now but the principle's the same: spend everything and more to show your status.
Most in the US use 'keeping up with the Joneses'. I've never heard anyone say the fake it bit. That must be regional.

 

[Samoerai]

The gengsi / prestige thing isn't specific to Indonesia but it's very pronounced here and in similar cultures. Way back when, one of my Econ professors, who had spent a couple of years in country, used Central Java as a teaching example of low investment due to low savings due to most folks spending everything on rituals and celebrations, which at that time we're what bestowed prestige. Society is much more materialistic now but the principle's the same: spend everything and more to show your status.
Most in the US use 'keeping up with the Joneses'. I've never heard anyone say the fake it bit. That must be regional.

As I said before 'gengsi' is in Indonesia institutionalized in society ... and has an effect on the Indonesian economy .. would be interesting to research and check how much.

 

[Bob]

Yes, I know it is human nature, but in Indonesia 'gengsi' is institutionalized in society. Status is everything here. Indonesia still has 'strata'.

That's why status is very important. In this thread some posts mentioned that Indonesians will look at you in a funny way when you e.g. make your own house repairs. That's "tukang kerja's" work.

Here women, more than in other countries, all want to be seen with Louis Vuitton or better Dior or even more better a Birkin bag. Women (pribumi) want to marry a bule. Status! The dogs people have are just a status symbol. An Apple phone has a higher status than a Samsung phone. Going abroad on vacation is all about status. Photo, photo more important than actually minikmati the view. The location of your house? Jakarta South? Wah, anak gaul! Sending your anak-anak to private school or even better International school. Having a Rolex watch. Playing golf, all about status. Just for photo aja. Lihat saya, keren! Which arisan do you attend? Ada yang Rp.50.000, ada yang 50 juta.

Ask anybody here in Indonesia about 'gengsi'. Or better ask your wife, she can explain gengsi to you and then you will understand why she wants to have a landed house, why she wants a Hermes bag or why she wants a Gucci watch. To show off her status.

I live on top of a luxery mall. I see the "pseudo middle class" visit the mall on Saturnday and Sunday with their anak-anak not buying anything, makan di Solaria atau Bami GM. Just to be seen. And I am thinking "What are you doing here in the mall with all your children? This mall is not a good environment/ place for children". But then again, going to the mall is all about status.

Those are some good points. One thing though about taking the kids to the mall is that it's understandable given the lack of parks and playgrounds.

 

[fastpitch17]

Those are some good points. One thing though about taking the kids to the mall is that it's understandable given the lack of parks and playgrounds.

The total disregard for the youth is pretty sad here. Unless you come from the ultra wealthy and can afford a state of the a rt private education you are basically left to learning all social skills on the street.

I always wonder what an organized institution like the US Boys and Girls Club could offer. I would think if they were available in every city they would build a better social structure for the youth to take into their adulthood. They would learn friendly competition and pick up skills to take forward.

Of course there would be some mass organizations bitching about guys and girls being equal.

 

[fastpitch17]

The gengsi / prestige thing isn't specific to Indonesia but it's very pronounced here and in similar cultures. Way back when, one of my Econ professors, who had spent a couple of years in country, used Central Java as a teaching example of low investment due to low savings due to most folks spending everything on rituals and celebrations, which at that time were what bestowed prestige. Society is much more materialistic now but the principle's the same: spend everything and more to show your status.
Most in the US use 'keeping up with the Joneses'. I've never heard anyone say the fake it bit. That must be regional.

Yeah, same here. Only heard keeping up with the Joneses.

 

[Samoerai]

The total disregard for the youth is pretty sad here. Unless you come from the ultra wealthy and can afford a state of the a rt private education you are basically left to learning all social skills on the street.

I always wonder what an organized institution like the US Boys and Girls Club could offer. I would think if they were available in every city they would build a better social structure for the youth to take into their adulthood. They would learn friendly competition and pick up skills to take forward.

Of course there would be some mass organizations bitching about guys and girls being equal.

In the for mentioned book there is a chapter about "Education as a ladder for social Elevation". I haven't read it yet, but checked some paragraphes. As I understand so far, pseudo middle class also spend large amounts of money for the education services, e.g. extra English lessons with private tutor and swimming classes, of their anak-anak.

Parents in pseudo middle class believe that education is the best and most reliable investment as well as the quickest way to elevate social status.

Education refers also to religious education.

 

[snpark]

Let me summise

"Social Media"

 

[snpark]

I like to twist it sometimes on them

Instead of showing off I ask them are you so poor that eating a steak with cutlery is such a big deal that you have to take a photo?

Or every flight you need a pic of your boarding card and passport and the corner of your fake LV bag?

Imagine if every time I got on a plane I took a photo of my passport. My feed would be full. And boring as hell.

Or a pic of my sink "today I cleaned my teeth"

Or when they post a pic in the gym (not working out) followed by a big bowl of rice and bakso "I so deserve this after that workout" not realising it kinda defeats the object of going to the gym

I lost 35kg in 3 months with little effort. And they cry over trying to lose 2kg in a month. Not realizing again that muscle weighs more than fat so they ultimately weigh more but just look slimmer lol

Girls with obviously fake bags who live in a kos then every month text me "daddy help me belum bayar kos" or "om please buy one of my bags I need to pay my rent"

Ok rant over
But all this "competition" posing on sosmed is to blame

 

[Samoerai]

But all this "competition" posing on sosmed is to blame

Yes, certainly not helping to breakdown this institutionalized gengsi ..

 

[Samoerai]

I always wonder what an organized institution like the US Boys and Girls Club could offer. I would think if they were available in every city they would build a better social structure for the youth to take into their adulthood. They would learn friendly competition and pick up skills to take forward.

According to this book, I am reading the chapter about "Education as a ladder for Social Elevation", there are so called "play groups" for children around 2-4 yours of age: PAUD, pre- kindergarding education, like Bintang Play Group and Al Karifa. And nowadays Rockstar Academy.

Also I just read the emergence and flourish of "bimbingan belajat" (bimbel), accelerated by implementation of uniform 'ujian nasional' which are mandatory for school children prior to graduation from primary and middle school,

 

[Samoerai]

I lost 35kg in 3 months with little effort

Well done. I bet you also saved some money, not dining out extravagently during those months. Establishments, like M bar and The Orient, must miss you.

 

[snpark]

Well done. I bet you also saved some money, not dining out extravagently during those months. Establishments, like M bar and The Orient, must miss you.

Soups salads and juices, no solids
Yeh now Caspar is not so busy, everyone is upstairs in Cafe Cal
Basque still super busy but his new place FooFoo opens soon - in Rasuna Said - Thai version of Basque
M Bar was for after Altitude or before Cloud
Now I am to be seen in St Regis, quiet and classy like me lol but please don't all come there because its small and then no where for me to sit lol

 

[Pak Tani]

I lost 35kg in 3 months with little effort.

You forgot a comma between 3 and 5? There is no way someone can loose 390gr of body fat a day for a period of 90 days with little effort. You'd have to run a 3.000+ calorie deficit on a daily basis.

I think you have a little secret. But that's okay.

 

[Samoerai]

You forgot a comma between 3 and 5? There is no way someone can loose 390gr of body fat a day for a period of 90 days with little effort. You'd have to run a 3.000+ calorie deficit on a daily basis.

I think you have a little secret. But that's okay.

Losing the first 30 kg of 150 kg is relatively easy ...

 

[Pak Tani]

Losing the first 30 kg of 150 kg is relatively easy ...

Are you saying that he is 150kg overweight?
Whoa, easy on the nasi goreng, mister.