What is the origin of "k" for [ʔ]?

[john madden]

Why?

Only the poster could answer that question, if they chose to. I won't be responding further.

 

[serious_fun]

ok.

oh, 'k'.

 

[pantaiema]

In the video shared by Brian86 at 1:47 mark.
Did you notice how she pronounces the word 'pastikan'. This is a clear case where K in the middle of the word is pronounced as /k/. It is the same with other Indonesian words ending with -kan such as makan, ikan, pakan, etc.
From wherever region they are coming from, I believe noone in Indonesia will pronounce these words using a glottal stop /ʔ/

 

[pantaiema]

For years I thought "petik" was actually "petit" because they both sound identical to me, in neither case is the last letter pronounced.

When you followed this pronunciation rule, you would have pronounced 'titik' as 'titit', which could offend people.

 

[Bob]

In the video shared by Brian86 at 1:47 mark.
Did you notice how she pronounces the word 'pastikan'. This is a clear case where K in the middle of the word is pronounced as /k/. It is the same with other Indonesian words ending with -kan such as makan, ikan, pakan, etc.
From wherever region they are coming from, I believe noone in Indonesia will pronounce these words using a glottal stop /ʔ/

Also rakyat around 1:48 and 1:51.

 

[Actioncourse]

In the video shared by Brian86 at 1:47 mark.
Did you notice how she pronounces the word 'pastikan'. This is a clear case where K in the middle of the word is pronounced as /k/. It is the same with other Indonesian words ending with -kan such as makan, ikan, pakan, etc.
From wherever region they are coming from, I believe noone in Indonesia will pronounce these words using a glottal stop /ʔ/

I'm talking about middle of the word syllable finally not between vowels (ex: bakso). I meant, like middle of a word after a vowel, before a consonant.

 

[john madden]

I'm talking about middle of the word syllable finally not between vowels (ex: bakso). I meant, like middle of a word after a vowel, before a consonant.

 

[john madden]

What is your question? It seems to have moved on from the original post.

 

[merahputih]

My main question is, why exactly was the letter K chosen to represent the glottal stop sound when K already had a sound and there was already a diacritic mark for the [ʔ] sound?

It's not. It sounds like a glottal stop because people say it softly or use accent from certain area, but it's not the right way to pronounce the "k".

 

[Actioncourse]

It's not. It sounds like a glottal stop because people say it softly or use accent from certain area, but it's not the right way to pronounce the "k".

Then what is the way to pronounce it? I've heard in most dialects, it's pronounced that way (glottal stop)

 

[Shadrach]

You have lost me on this subject? I never knew that a question mark had a sound! Huh!

 

[Actioncourse]

You have lost me on this subject? I never knew that a question mark had a sound! Huh!

What is this:?

 

[merahputih]

Then what is the way to pronounce it? I've heard in most dialects, it's pronounced that way (glottal stop)

Prounounce it anyway. That's the right & good way. Because people can not misunderstand "paksa" but can misunderstand "pa'sa". Seriously, "pa'sa" doesn't exist.

In the old days words are pronounced clearly, probably it was an influence of Dutch culture. My Dutch language coach is meticulous about pronunciation. She also said that new generation care less and less about it that's why I hear a lot of slur when young people speak. I thought, oh, we have the same situation in Indonesia.
I like the way people say the words in Indonesian old 1950's movie. If you ever google it and you see text, don't get confused with the spelling. It was probably written with old spelling like tj- for c, dj- for j and ij- for y, as in Dutch.

If your goal is to sound native, then it's still a long way to go. Learn Indonesian, learn your local language, then learn to say Indonesian words in your local language accent. Don't forget to notice which words people use (is it the Indonesian word or the local language word?) when they mix it in the sentence.

Actually, don't worry to much that you don't sound "right" or "native". You'll pick it up along the way if you live here long enough. If you care that much about one letter, it's a good idea to consult a linguistic expert.

 

[jstar]

I know but I'm asking, why was K chosen to represent the glottal stop sound

You can blame the Indonesian Spelling called Edjaan Soewandi. And their source which was international spelling standards.

Bit of history:
There was no written Latin version of the Malay language, only an Arab version.
So at the end of the 19th century the linguist were fighting and rolling on the street of how translations should look like.
A smart Dutch guy, Van Ophuijsen (try to pronounce that), got the benefit of the doubt and made a spelling system -obviously- for the Dutch colonial powers in 1901. He used the ‘ (quote) for the glottal stop.
Indonesia became independent and they wanted something new so came up,with the Revolutionary Spelling System (what’s in a name) in 1947. They replaced that infamous quote with the letter ‘k’. And why? Nobody really knows but they assume the linguists looked it up in the international spelling guide. After that, mainly in the seventies, some more changes took place of course.

Source: A course from Languages and Cultures of Indonesia at the Leiden University at the time

 

[Actioncourse]

You can blame the Indonesian Spelling called Edjaan Soewandi. And their source which was international spelling standards.

Bit of history:
There was no written Latin version of the Malay language, only an Arab version.
So at the end of the 19th century the linguist were fighting and rolling on the street of how translations should look like.
A smart Dutch guy, Van Ophuijsen (try to pronounce that), got the benefit of the doubt and made a spelling system -obviously- for the Dutch colonial powers in 1901. He used the ‘ (quote) for the glottal stop.
Indonesia became independent and they wanted something new so came up,with the Revolutionary Spelling System (what’s in a name) in 1947. They replaced that infamous quote with the letter ‘k’. And why? Nobody really knows but they assume the linguists looked it up in the international spelling guide. After that, mainly in the seventies, some more changes took place of course.

Source: A course from Languages and Cultures of Indonesia at the Leiden University at the time

So it was just arbitrary?

 

[jstar]

Well, it’s more like strolling in the tables of the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) and in other spelling manuals, and to look up and select what made sense (to them). Besides ‘k’, there are obviously many others depending on the language or even dialect.

 

[Actioncourse]

Well, it’s more like strolling in the tables of the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) and in other spelling manuals, and to look up and select what made sense (to them). Besides ‘k’, there are obviously many others depending on the language or even dialect.

The main problem is in Indonesian, there is no standard way of writing the stop sound. It's either unwritten as in "saat" or written as "k" as in "becak".

 

[merahputih]

I believe there are not so many words required that stop sound, at least not that I can think of... taat, saat, Jumat. Anyone can add anything is very welcome.

Maybe something interesting for you to read (but they are all in Bahasa Indonesia):

Ejaan yang Disempurnakan - Wikipedia bahasa Indonesia, ensiklopedia bebas

id.m.wikipedia.org

Raden Mas Soewandi Notokoesoemo: Sosok di Balik Ejaan Republik - Narabahasa

Soewandi adalah salah satu ejaan yang pernah berlaku di Indonesia. Ejaan Soewandi—yang sering disebut juga sebagai Ejaan Republik—resmi menyempurnakan Ejaan...

narabahasa.id

EYD V

Ejaan Bahasa Indonesia yang Disempurnakan

ejaan.kemdikbud.go.id

 

[GermanyIsColdIndonesian]

Hello guys, so I've just started learning the Indonesian language. One of the things that I'm been studying is its history, like spelling, orthography etc. However, there is one thing that has been surprising me. That is the pronunciation of the letter K. I just discovered that in a number of words, it represents the sound [k] and it does often represent a glottal stop sound too especially when it's at the end of a syllable (ex: bakso, rakyat, tidak, cicak, etc.). My main question is, why exactly was the letter K chosen to represent the glottal stop sound when K already had a sound and there was already a diacritic mark for the [ʔ] sound? Besides, glottal stop occurs in words like "saat" too. Using Q for the glottal stop sound would have made more sense since it was rarely used and so would have given better use. What is the origin of "k" for [ʔ] in words like "baik"? Is it because, in many Indonesian dialects, it represents that sound too syllable finally? Or was it just arbitrary and people were like "I don't know what I'm going to do so I'll use K for [ʔ] aswell"?

Im not a linguist but I can assure you that the ”Bak“ in ”Bakso“ is the word for meat 肉 in Hokkien Chinese, the k is a romanisation for the mid stopping 4th tone in Hokkien. Indonesia is so diverse that it is understandable that a non-Tionghoa Indonesian says a word how it’s written. Hokkien romanisation is its own chaotic mess, sometimes in Indonesia you encounter someone writing it ”Baso“ making it more sensible. In Taiwanese Tâi-Lô romanisation it is written as ”Bah“.