What is the origin of "k" for [ʔ]?

[Actioncourse]

Hello guys, so I've just started learning the Indonesian language. One of the things that I'm been studying is its history, like spelling, orthography etc. However, there is one thing that has been surprising me. That is the pronunciation of the letter K. I just discovered that in a number of words, it represents the sound [k] and it does often represent a glottal stop sound too especially when it's at the end of a syllable (ex: bakso, rakyat, tidak, cicak, etc.). My main question is, why exactly was the letter K chosen to represent the glottal stop sound when K already had a sound and there was already a diacritic mark for the [ʔ] sound? Besides, glottal stop occurs in words like "saat" too. Using Q for the glottal stop sound would have made more sense since it was rarely used and so would have given better use. What is the origin of "k" for [ʔ] in words like "baik"? Is it because, in many Indonesian dialects, it represents that sound too syllable finally? Or was it just arbitrary and people were like "I don't know what I'm going to do so I'll use K for [ʔ] aswell"?

 

[Brian86]

It really is a K. Sometimes I do think people use a glottal stop, but most often it's an unaspirated, unreleased K, which sounds very similar.

You can really hear that it's a K on the end of a word when you change a verb with K ending to a noun by adding -an. Like "masak" and "masakan", it's clearly not "masa'an".

Or like you example "baik", the way I pronounce it (which I believe is correct and mimics my neighbors) my tongue moves into the position of a K, but stops short of finishing the sound, whereas a glottal stop does not have the same tongue position. And then if you make it a noun "kebaikan" the K is clearly present.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...e/indonesian/AE405481B94A4E0B7234A8BBE9C6F5FD

The voiceless plosives /p/, /

/, and /k/ are unaspirated, and they are unreleased in syllable-final position. Syllable-final /k/ becomes [ʔ], as in becak [ˈbetʃaʔ] ‘pedicab, tricycle’, but this does not apply in some loan words, e.g. [ˈfak

a] ‘fact’, nor does it apply in some regional variants. The voiced plosives may be somewhat breathy. The alveolar consonants /d/, /n/, and /s/ are dental in some regional variants.

 

[Actioncourse]

It really is a K, though sometimes it's pronounced as a glottal stop and sometimes as simply an unaspirated K.

You can really hear that it's a K on the end of a word when you change a verb with K ending to a noun by adding -an. Like "masak" and "masakan", it's clearly not "masa'an".

Or like you example "baik", the way I pronounce it (which I believe is correct and mimics my neighbors) my tongue moves into the position of a K, but stops short of finishing the sound, whereas a glottal stop does not have the same tongue position. And then if you make it a noun "kebaikan" the K is clearly present.

Notes on Indonesian Pronunciation, Stress and Grammar

I know but I'm asking, why was K chosen to represent the glottal stop sound

 

[Brian86]

I know but I'm asking, why was K chosen to represent the glottal stop sound

You have not given any example of K being used to represent a glottal stop sound, do you have one? I did edit my post and you responded quickly, so maybe re-read the clarification I added.

Bakso, rakyat, tidak, cicak, baik, are all unreleased, unaspirated K, not glottal stop. "Saat" which you mention has a glottal stop, with no symbol. I most often see people use an apostrophe when they want to represent a glottal stop.

 

[Actioncourse]

You have not given any example of K being used to represent a glottal stop sound, do you have one? I did edit my post and you responded quickly, so maybe re-read the clarification I added. "Saat" which you mention has a glottal stop, with no symbol. I most often see people use an apostrophe when they want to represent a glottal stop.

Tidak, Cicak, Bapak, Bakso, Rakyat

 

[Brian86]

Tidak, Cicak, Bapak, Bakso, Rakyat

Those are not glottals, they are unreleased, unaspirated K. It's easy to miss in the final position, but if you are pronouncing "ba'so" and "ra'yat" it should be quite noticeably "aneh" to native speakers (although I wouldn't be surprised to learn of some region where it's normal).

 

[Actioncourse]

Those are not glottals, they are unreleased, unaspirated K. It's easy to miss in the final position, but if you are pronouncing "ba'so" and "ra'yat" it should be quite noticeably "aneh" to native speakers (although I wouldn't be surprised to learn of some region where it's normal).

Are unreleased, unaspirated K almost similar to glotal stop

 

[Brian86]

Are unreleased, unaspirated K almost similar to glotal stop

Yes, similar, especially at the end of a word. I'll refer back to the Cambridge article I linked above;

The glottal stop [ʔ] occurs in four environments. First, it occurs as an allophone of /k/ syllable-finally, as mentioned above. Second, it occurs between vowels in some words of Arabic origin, e.g. maaf [ˈmaʔaf] ‘forgive, pardon’. Third, it occurs between a prefix ending in a vowel and a stem beginning with a vowel, irrespective of the vowel quality, e.g. seorang [səˈʔoraŋ] ‘a person’, keenam [kəʔəˈnam] ‘sixth’. Fourth, it occurs between a stem ending in /a/ and a stem or suffix beginning with /a/, e.g. keadaan [kəʔaˈdaʔan] ‘existence, situation’.

 

[Actioncourse]

Yes, similar, especially at the end of a word. I'll refer back to the Cambridge article I linked above;

So then are they allophones?

 

[Brian86]

So then are they allophones?

At the end of an Indonesian word, yes.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

"t" is also used as a kind of glottal stop at the end of words, although it ends with the tongue between the teeth instead of at the roof of the mouth. For years I thought "petik" was actually "petit" because they both sound identical to me, in neither case is the last letter pronounced.

 

[pantaiema]

In my personal observation this will depend on the position of K whether it is at the beginning/the middle of a word or at the end of a word.

If K is at the beginning of a word such as Kamu, Kabar, Kuta or in the middle the words such as Bakso, Rakyat, Amerika, it is like /k/ sound in kiss /kɪs/, cat /kæt/ in RP English.

When the K is at the end of a word, such as Tidak, Cicak, Bapak Baik, Batik,
it is almost silent, so it sounds like knick /nɪk/, knack /næk/ in RP English.

@ukozok who is an Indonesian linguistic professor, might want to shed the light on it.

 

[Actioncourse]

In my personal observation this will depend on the position of K whether it is at the beginning/the middle of a word or at the end of a word.

If K is at the beginning of a word such as Kamu, Kabar, Kuta or in the middle the words such as Bakso, Rakyat, Amerika, it is like /k/ sound in kiss /kɪs/, cat /kæt/ in RP English.

When the K is at the end of a word, such as Tidak, Cicak, Bapak Baik, Batik,
it is almost silent, so it sounds like knick /nɪk/, knack /næk/ in RP English.

@ukozok who is an Indonesian linguistic professor, might want to shed the light on it.

In my personal observation this will depend on the position of K whether it is at the beginning/the middle of a word or at the end of a word.

If K is at the beginning of a word such as Kamu, Kabar, Kuta or in the middle the words such as Bakso, Rakyat, Amerika, it is like /k/ sound in kiss /kɪs/, cat /kæt/ in RP English.

When the K is at the end of a word, such as Tidak, Cicak, Bapak Baik, Batik,
it is almost silent, so it sounds like knick /nɪk/, knack /næk/ in RP English.

@ukozok who is an Indonesian linguistic professor, might want to shed the light on it.

Aren't Bakso and Rakyat words where K is a glottal stop?

 

[Brian86]

Aren't Bakso and Rakyat words where K is a glottal stop?

I've heard bakso many times both ways, but never heard Rakyat with a glottal.

Example, go straight to the end at 1:46:

 

[pantaiema]

Aren't Bakso and Rakyat words where K is a glottal stop?

I have heard some dialects in English are using a glottal stop /ʔ/ to replace /t/ when pronouncing water, better. Also used by rappers in songs.

In certain Indonesian dialects, particularly among ethnic groups known for their "polite" or "soft" speech patterns, such as the Sundanese and to some extent certain Javanese communities, you might hear the words containing the letters 'K' in the middle such as 'Bakso' and 'Rakyat' might be pronounced as a glottal stop /ʔ/. But to me it sounds closer to silent rather than glottal stop. It is mainly influenced by their mother tongue and community they live in. However, in dialects spoken by ethnic groups with strong speech patterns like the Batak, Makassar, Minahasan, Papuan the glottal stop is typically not used in pronouncing K in the middle of words.

Also you could notice that generally Indonesian news reader pronounce the words K in Bakso' and 'Rakyat as /k/, not glottal stop /ʔ/.

One of my criticism with regard to preservation of Indonesian Standard language is the lack of IPA transcription in the dictionary, like I raise in this thread. https://www.expatindo.org/community...nary-with-ipa-transcriptions.7241/#post-99945
Even Kamus Besar Bahasa Indonesia (KBBI) which supposed to be the standard for Indonesian language does not provide phonetic information.

 

[Actioncourse]

Wait did somebody delete their comment?

 

[john madden]

Wait did somebody delete their comment?

Yes, as posters may, within a certain timeframe.

 

[Actioncourse]

Yes, as posters may, within a certain timeframe.

Was it deleted because, it was technically wrong?

 

[john madden]

Was it deleted because, it was technically wrong?

It was deleted because the poster chose to.

 

[Actioncourse]

It was deleted because the poster chose to.

Why?