War

[Nimbus]

Prove it, if you can.

Prove they’re not lies, if you can.

I was halfway giving you benefit of the doubt, but apparently it’s not warranted. You are for Putin, not for objective analysis.

 

[Dave70]

Prove they’re not lies, if you can.

I was halfway giving you benefit of the doubt, but apparently it’s not warranted. You are for Putin, not for objective analysis.

The burden of proof is on the individual who claimed that I lied.

In this case, Fastpitch claimed that I lied (post #230), so he should prove it.

On the contrary, Fastpitch was caught lying or using erroneous data or fake news (Western propaganda), see post #146.

Let me ask you Nimbus, are you being objective yourself? At least, I’m speaking the truth to the best of my knowledge. Not being silent, not afraid to be bullied or labelled as an outcast.

 

[atlantis]

Prove it, if you can.

What about the article you pasted, originating in a Russian Embassy in India FB post and published by an Indian paper lying about "Ethnic Ukrainians will be sent by the French Foreign Legion as well."? Do you deny that it was lies knowingly distilled by the Russian government (their Embassy in India)? Do you deny that YOU willingly posted the article lying about it here and therefore contributed to peddle lies?

In case you do, they were lies and it is proven. It was so blatant that I am inclined to believe you knew the article wasn't accurate to say the least. IMHO, you couldn't have missed it. Anyway you sort of have admitted you knew it was crap (see post#175 "There is reason why I didn’t include it") so yes, it is definitely proven you have contributed to peddle lies in this forum, fully knowing they were such. But it wouldn't be the "hottest news at the moment in the forum", would it?

The french foreign legion sending Ukrainian to fight was just a single example but the bit about "Germany is anticipated to send a large number of fighters too" would have been as easy to debunk lie.

An Embassy, which acts as the official voice of its government in a country, fully knows what this would mean but they decided to lie to fit their propaganda and I repeat, YOU decided to re-post it here. Perhaps it was to subtlely expose the fact that the Russian government has no shame to lie? Or perhaps you may say that you only quoted the bit about mercenaries coming in number to Ukraine but at no moment, despite being fully aware of it, you mentioned your source was peddling crap. It is supporting lies, nothing else.

Retrospectively it's even more telling about the hypocrisy of the Russian government when you know that now Russia is looking at facilitating Syrian mercenaries to join the conflict alongside Russia. I guess that what was evil yesterday is commendable today, all depending on who is supporting it.

 

[Dave70]

What about the article you pasted, originating in a Russian Embassy in India FB post and published by an Indian paper lying about "Ethnic Ukrainians will be sent by the French Foreign Legion as well."? Do you deny that it was lies knowingly distilled by the Russian government (their Embassy in India)? Do you deny that YOU willingly posted the article lying about it here and therefore contributed to peddle lies?

In case you do, they were lies and it is proven. It was so blatant that I am inclined to believe you knew the article wasn't accurate to say the least. IMHO, you couldn't have missed it. Anyway you sort of have admitted you knew it was crap (see post#175 "There is reason why I didn’t include it") so yes, it is definitely proven you have contributed to peddle lies in this forum, fully knowing they were such. But it wouldn't be the "hottest news at the moment in the forum", would it?

The french foreign legion sending Ukrainian to fight was just a single example but the bit about "Germany is anticipated to send a large number of fighters too" would have been as easy to debunk lie.

An Embassy, which acts as the official voice of its government in a country, fully knows what this would mean but they decided to lie to fit their propaganda and I repeat, YOU decided to re-post it here. Perhaps it was to subtlely expose the fact that the Russian government has no shame to lie? Or perhaps you may say that you only quoted the bit about mercenaries coming in number to Ukraine but at no moment, despite being fully aware of it, you mentioned your source was peddling crap. It is supporting lies, nothing else.

Retrospectively it's even more telling about the hypocrisy of the Russian government when you know that now Russia is looking at facilitating Syrian mercenaries to join the conflict alongside Russia. I guess that what was evil yesterday is commendable today, all depending on who is supporting it.

Post #185, I said, “On one side is the Western media, which you cannot completely trust for news about Russia. So what do you do? You watch the other side as well. Things not reported on the Western media you can find on the other side. But use caution and common sense.”

Use caution and common sense, there are truth in there, but not ALL. Same on the Western media. Fact is, there are Ethnic Ukrainians in the French Foreign Legion. Fact is, they were permitted to go home to evacuate their families (not to fight). But if they decided to fight, they are NOT fighting under the French Foreign Legion (common sense). The article lack clarification on this, that’s why I didn’t include it. I provided the link as reference to what I said, and there’s NO lie in what I said. You cannot say I lied just because I linked the article. As I said, there are truth in there which you cannot find in the Western media.

As somebody said, “the first casualty of war is the truth”.

I agree, by the way, that there is hypocrisy on both sides, and it is true that Russia is sending mercenaries from Syria to fight in Ukraine.

 

[atlantis]

Post #185, I said, “On one side is the Western media, which you cannot completely trust for news about Russia. So what do you do? You watch the other side as well. Things not reported on the Western media you can find on the other side. But use caution and common sense.”

Use caution and common sense, there are truth in there, but not ALL. Same on the Western media. Fact is, there are Ethnic Ukrainians in the French Foreign Legion. Fact is, they were permitted to go home to evacuate their families (not to fight). But if they decided to fight, they are NOT fighting under the French Foreign Legion (common sense). The article lack clarification on this, that’s why I didn’t include it. I provided the link as reference to what I said, and there’s NO lie in what I said. You cannot say I lied just because I linked the article. As I said, there are truth in there which you cannot find in the Western media.

This is another attempt at obfuscating the fact that you have supported lies here. You wrote #185 AFTER having been called out for pasting articles peddling lies, at no time before or in the post you were pasting.

If I post a sentence from an article saying "Some of the reason for the raise in power of Hitler are to be found in the fact that the conditions imposed by the treaty of Versailles were harsh and unacceptable for Germany", I can't be accused of lies, but if I do so while in the same article I pasted it was said that "Holocaust is a myth", without clearly demarking me from it, then I would rightfully be accused to peddle lies and be a revisionist.

I am sorry but when you choose to paste an article, you endorse what is written unless if you clearly state otherwise and that you do so, in the same time you posted it, not long after having been called out for it. And no amount of " there’s NO lie in what I said" would change it because by pasting an article where one was fully knowing craps were written and NOT clearly stating that inaccurate information where given in the article while one fully knew it, one supported it.

Again your "Fact is, they were permitted to go home to evacuate their families (not to fight). But if they decided to fight, they are NOT fighting under the French Foreign Legion (common sense). " just highlights the fact that you don't know what you talk about because it misses the most important information: if the french legionnaire of Ukrainian descent would fight in Ukraine it would be a major breach of their contract, triggering sanctions from the french government and legal prosecution in a french military court. This is what you should have written if you wanted to avoid people saying that you peddle lies/inaccurate information and misleading propaganda and have any interest in sharing complete and trustful information. what you have done is just a pitiful attempt at trying to legitimize the lies peddled by the Russian Embassy in India arguing they clumsily lacked of clarification. Come on. You know it's laughable crap.
You call out FP17 because he said Azov batalion was 900 strong instead of saying it was 4.000 or 5.000 or 4.724 or whatever approaching number, but it is totally missing the point. The point is that Azov is a ridiculous number in a 250.000 strong army of an almost 45 millions souls country and therefore claiming that "neo nazi are everywhere" in Ukraine/Ukrainian army is just ridiculous and misleading. If you want my opinion, extreme right wing sympathizer are not a rare occurrence in many European armies. At least in France. I have a couple of uncles which spent their whole military carrier in paratroopers and french foreign legions and they were not exactly Progressists and fond of multiculturalism. It doesn't make the french army a den of neo nazi or white supremacist.

It's sort of hilarious that you claim that "Fastpitch was caught lying or using erroneous data or fake news (Western propaganda)" but try to contort when you are proven having peddled lies. I don't try to offend you but the great Harry Houdini would look like a damn rigid stick compared to you in this exercise.
I like the fact that you quoted twice George Galloway in this thread though, using him as a reliable and serious source of information. Please carry on. Anyway, I think I can rest my case.

 

[Dave70]

I am sorry but when you choose to paste an article, you endorse what is written unless if you clearly state otherwise and that you do so, in the same time you posted it, not long after having been called out for it. And no amount of " there’s NO lie in what I said" would change it because by pasting an article where one was fully knowing craps were written and NOT clearly stating that inaccurate information where given in the article while one fully knew it, one supported it.

Your admonition accepted, learned something today, thank you.

Again your "Fact is, they were permitted to go home to evacuate their families (not to fight). But if they decided to fight, they are NOT fighting under the French Foreign Legion (common sense). " just highlights the fact that you don't know what you talk about because it misses the most important information: if the french legionnaire of Ukrainian descent would fight in Ukraine it would be a major breach of their contract, triggering sanctions from the french government and legal prosecution in a french military court.

I was thinking along the line that they would resign first from the French Foreign Legion BEFORE fighting in the war.

therefore claiming that "neo nazi are everywhere" in Ukraine/Ukrainian army is just ridiculous and misleading.

Scott Ritter said that (in the video), not me.

If you want my opinion, extreme right wing sympathizer are not a rare occurrence in many European armies. At least in France. I have a couple of uncles which spent their whole military carrier in paratroopers and french foreign legions and they were not exactly Progressists and fond of multiculturalism. It doesn't make the french army a den of neo nazi or white supremacist.

Problem is, they are not Nazi sympathizer, they are NAZI organization resurrected with official recognition in Ukraine and their own battalion in the military.

Tell me which other country has official NAZI organization or battalion in their army, only Ukraine has (correct me if I'm wrong).

If allowed to grow (as happening in Ukraine), it's not improbable that NAZI will take over the whole country sooner or later.

It's sort of hilarious that you claim that "Fastpitch was caught lying or using erroneous data or fake news (Western propaganda)" but try to contort when you are proven having peddled lies. I don't try to offend you but the great Harry Houdini would look like a damn rigid stick compared to you in this exercise.

You accuse me of peddling lies just because of articles I linked or referenced (even though I didn't quote the inaccurate part). So what do you think of Fastpitch, is he lying or what? Please be fair.

I like the fact that you quoted twice George Galloway in this thread though, using him as a reliable and serious source of information. Please carry on. Anyway, I think I can rest my case.

George Galloway is one of the great mavericks of British politics, he has my respect.

 

[fastpitch17]

Dave, thanks for another laugh. Keep up the funny work.

 

[Nimbus]

The burden of proof is on the individual who claimed that I lied.

In this case, Fastpitch claimed that I lied (post #230), so he should prove it.

On the contrary, Fastpitch was caught lying or using erroneous data or fake news (Western propaganda), see post #146.

Let me ask you Nimbus, are you being objective yourself? At least, I’m speaking the truth to the best of my knowledge. Not being silent, not afraid to be bullied or labelled as an outcast.

I am speaking to the best of my knowledge, using the most credible sources. I’m no stranger about speaking truth to power, and I hold at least one minority opinion on this forum, but nobody can challenge my facts on it because they are genuine. In the past I have actually risked my life to oppose a dictatorship, so being unpopular on a little internet forum is the least of my worry. I have nothing against Russian people, but Putin is a corrupt dictator who has to be fought.

I don’t know what motivates you to defend Putin, but objectivity is not it. If you support him just to be different, then you are by definition a troll.

 

[Dave70]

Dave, thanks for another laugh. Keep up the funny work.

You're welcome.

 

[Dave70]

I am speaking to the best of my knowledge, using the most credible sources. I’m no stranger about speaking truth to power, and I hold at least one minority opinion on this forum, but nobody can challenge my facts on it because they are genuine. In the past I have actually risked my life to oppose a dictatorship, so being unpopular on a little internet forum is the least of my worry. I have nothing against Russian people, but Putin is a corrupt dictator who has to be fought.

I don’t know what motivates you to defend Putin, but objectivity is not it. If you support him just to be different, then you are by definition a troll.

I feel you are mirroring me, “being unpopular on a little internet forum” is not you.

Support Putin just to be different? As I said, I look at the problem, and see that Zelenskyy is to blame for the war, he brought his people to war due to sheer stupidity. Blaming one doesn’t mean supporting the other. Is that clear?

But to say I’m just different… maybe you are right, and all alone now after @Balifrog left the forum.

Anyway, below are articles about the neo-Nazi in Ukraine, beginning from 2004. All from the Western media, don’t tell me they are not credible sources. All are facts, all are genuine.

Guardian - US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev (2004): https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa

Guardian - Azov fighters are Ukraine's greatest weapon and may be its greatest threat (2014): https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis

Reuters - Ultra-nationalist Ukrainian battalion gears up for more fighting (2015): https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-azov-idUSKBN0ML0XJ20150325

Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty - Right-Wing Azov Battalion Enters Ukraine's Political Arena (2016): https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraiz-azov-battalion-forms-party/28053027.html

The Hill - The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda (2017): https://thehill.com/opinion/interna...e-ukraine-is-far-from-kremlin-propaganda?rl=1

Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty - Azov, Ukraine's Most Prominent Ultranationalist Group, Sets Its Sights On U.S., Europe (2018): https://www.rferl.org/a/azov-ukrain...p-sets-its-sights-on-u-s-europe/29600564.html

Haaretz - Inside the Extremist Group That Dreams of Ruling Ukraine (2019): https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/...group-that-dreams-of-ruling-ukraine-1.6936835

Atlantic Council - The Azov Regiment has not depoliticized (2020): https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/the-azov-regiment-has-not-depoliticized/

Buzzfeed - This Neo-Nazi Group Is Organizing On Facebook Despite A Year-Old Ban (2020): https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/christopherm51/neo-nazi-group-facebook

Guardian - Facebook condemned for hosting neo-Nazi network with UK links (2020): https://www.theguardian.com/technol...ed-for-hosting-neo-nazi-network-with-uk-links

TIME - How a White-Supremacist Militia Uses Facebook to Radicalize and Train New Members (2021): https://time.com/5926750/azov-far-right-movement-facebook/

TIME - Inside A White Supremacist Militia in Ukraine (2021): see post #84

Al Jazeera - Profile: Who are Ukraine’s far-right Azov regiment? (2022): https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment

NPR - A closer look at the volunteers who are signing up to fight the Russians (2022):

What else do you want to know?

 

[Nimbus]

I feel you are mirroring me, “being unpopular on a little internet forum” is not you.

Support Putin just to be different? As I said, I look at the problem, and see that Zelenskyy is to blame for the war, he brought his people to war due to sheer stupidity. Blaming one doesn’t mean supporting the other. Is that clear?

But to say I’m just different… maybe you are right, and all alone now after @Balifrog left the forum.

Anyway, below are articles about the neo-Nazi in Ukraine, beginning from 2004. All from the Western media, don’t tell me they are not credible sources. All are facts, all are genuine.

Guardian - US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev (2004): https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa

Guardian - Azov fighters are Ukraine's greatest weapon and may be its greatest threat (2014): https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis

Reuters - Ultra-nationalist Ukrainian battalion gears up for more fighting (2015): https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-azov-idUSKBN0ML0XJ20150325

Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty - Right-Wing Azov Battalion Enters Ukraine's Political Arena (2016): https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraiz-azov-battalion-forms-party/28053027.html

The Hill - The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda (2017): https://thehill.com/opinion/interna...e-ukraine-is-far-from-kremlin-propaganda?rl=1

Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty - Azov, Ukraine's Most Prominent Ultranationalist Group, Sets Its Sights On U.S., Europe (2018): https://www.rferl.org/a/azov-ukrain...p-sets-its-sights-on-u-s-europe/29600564.html

Haaretz - Inside the Extremist Group That Dreams of Ruling Ukraine (2019): https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/...group-that-dreams-of-ruling-ukraine-1.6936835

Atlantic Council - The Azov Regiment has not depoliticized (2020): https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/the-azov-regiment-has-not-depoliticized/

Buzzfeed - This Neo-Nazi Group Is Organizing On Facebook Despite A Year-Old Ban (2020): https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/christopherm51/neo-nazi-group-facebook

Guardian - Facebook condemned for hosting neo-Nazi network with UK links (2020): https://www.theguardian.com/technol...ed-for-hosting-neo-nazi-network-with-uk-links

TIME - How a White-Supremacist Militia Uses Facebook to Radicalize and Train New Members (2021): https://time.com/5926750/azov-far-right-movement-facebook/

TIME - Inside A White Supremacist Militia in Ukraine (2021): see post #84

Al Jazeera - Profile: Who are Ukraine’s far-right Azov regiment? (2022): https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment

NPR - A closer look at the volunteers who are signing up to fight the Russians (2022):

What else do you want to know?

You can easily find Islamic hardliners, even Islamic terrorists in Indonesia, but if you suddenly leap to the conclusion that the country is no different than Taliban-ruled Afghanistan, then your agenda is not the truth.

Ukraine has problems with racists. Hell, the US of A has tons of white supremacists up to the highest levels of government. However, to summarize that the two countries are basically Nazi Germany is disingenuous at best and gaslighting at the worst. Putin’s excuse that he’s saving Europe from an emerging white supremacist state is one of the biggest bullshit of the century, especially when Ukraine has a Jewish president.

You know what I think about your opinion about Zelenskyy, so I won’t repeat it.

 

[atlantis]

You accuse me of peddling lies just because of articles I linked or referenced (even though I didn't quote the inaccurate part). So what do you think of Fastpitch, is he lying or what? Please be fair.

I think you didn't get the point Dave.
FP17 said "That article was taken from Vice Indonesia who failed to explain that the Azov were only 900 strong". A more accurate figure is by all accounts around 4.000. FP17 is "guilty" of quoting an erroneous data.

Azov has been formed in 2014 and till the end of 2015 they weren't more than 1.000 so if the articles FP17 consulted to say that they are 900 dates from that period it would explain the inaccuracy with today's figures. To be honest, it's pretty rich to read you accusing FP17 for using the figure of 900 while, in the same time, you post a 2015 Reuters (3rd link, post #250) article which corroborates his number and reads "The 1,000 strong ultra-nationalist militia has a reputation as a fierce pro-government fighting force". It leaves me wondering if you even read the links you paste.

But to be honest only FP17 can say where he found this 900 figures and it's not for me to answer it.

Did you really asked me seriously if FP17 has lied? If you are serious in asking the question, rather than just trying to stir the shit, I would tell you that in my book he didn't and would kindly ask you to tell me what is the difference if you consider they are 4.000 rather than 900 in an army of 250.000? Don't you see that there is a huge difference between lying and pretending that a nation, or a group of nation, send regular troops and mercenaries to combat while they are absolutely not, and stating that an obscure battalion is 900 strong rather than 4.000 while the total army of Ukraine is around 250.000 men?

How can you possibly miss the difference?

Azov, be they 900 or be they 4.000 is a is a negligible quantity in the whole Ukrainian army which is I repeat 250.000 soldiers. Only you and the Russian propagandists are in despair to paint Ukraine as a den of Nazi because of Azov.

Neo-nazism is unfortunately a reality in Europe, and denying it would be wrong. It is a reality in Ukraine, it is a relity in France, the UK, Germany, Poland, Serbia, Hungary, USA and many other countries including, of course, Russia.

Denying that Azov has neo nazi elements and flavor would be a disservice to Ukraine, but over exaggerating their importance is a lie. It is troubling that Azov is integrated in the Ukrainian National Guard, but it doesn't make the nation of Ukraine a nation on the verge of being overtaken by nazis, nor it justify in any way the Russian agression.

Perhaps you ignore it but Ukraine is home to one of the world's largest Jewish community (some figures say up to 400K, which is 100 times the size of Azov, the lowest figure says 40.000 which is still 10 times Azov's size ) and I guess they would have noticed and been vocal should neo nazism was an imminent threat to Ukraine's democracy.

For the record over 1 million of Ukrainian jews have been killed by the Nazis and local Ukrainian supporters and the country has probably witnessed some of the most horrific violence committed against Jews during the Holocaust. And Putin want us to believe that the Ukrainian Jewish community would have missed, at their door, what he has seen from the Red Square?

Do you know by the way that, in 2019, Ukraine was the only country in the world with Israel to have both a Head of State (Zelenskyy) and a Head of Government (Volodymyr Groysman) being Jews?
Talking about Groysman, who has lost most of his family with the shoah and therefore know his bit about nazism, do you know that he calls Russia's invasion "a continuation of Nazi policy on a national basis". It seems he doesn't buy Putin's arguments on the rampant nazification of Ukraine.

But really Dave, if the above is not enough for you to stop bashing Ukraine, and if you are so interested in being punctilious please get a close look at the relation between the Russian government and the Wagner group, whose many members openly declare themselves neo nazi, the Russian government and the Chechen Kadirovtsky, with the latter being a part of Russian Internal affair ministry, the incredible clemency the MMP/Russian Imperial Movement profit from in Russia, or even the fact that Russian National Unity, an openly neo nazi movement, claims a whopping 100.000 members which makes Azov, relatively, looking like a small group.

Most importantly, please realize that innocent kids, wives, husbands, parents have been dying for the past 3 weeks solely due to Putin's decision to invade a sovereign country.

 

[Bad_azz]

I am seeing reports that Russia is asking China for military aid, it really doesn't imply that things are going to plan for Russia does it?

 

[fastpitch17]

My numbers for the Azov were taken from a report given on the French24 TV station. They made it sound like 900 were the actuve fighters while the whole were larger in number. I used the active fighters number.

I wholely and humbly appolozize for to anyone who feels I misled them purposely for some unknown benefit or that I would pad any claims of being some kind of analysis of which I am not. All in all, I can now say that the Azov is around 4,000 and, while a small group, are at this time fighting russian invadors along side their Ukranian brothers and sisters of all creeds.

I think I will spend the a small part of today looking up articles that support all I believe in. Some will take no time while others I will have to really dig. At least I won't have to spend the majority of daylight hours finding nonsense.
Ah, no I won't do that. The Free World is full of media reports on what I believe so I don't need to help them. OK, a couple things that may be crazy that I believe in are easy for me to find but they are my crazy things and I see no reason to share.

 

[nardo]

It's the next mass market scam. Big money is making squillions from misery around the world. The new marketing paradigm is fear and anxiety... Make the people scared and they will comply willingly. There is always 2 sides to a story and multiple twisted justifications... You can be sure Putin and the oligarchs are in cahoots with the warmongers, big oil, big mining and right wing looneys everywhere and are reaping the benefits.

 

[snpark]

Oh god here we go again
Smh

 

[snpark]

That damn pizza place in NYC sure is busy

 

[Ruserious]

Nardo you sure you dont want to blame it all on George Soros? Or maybe none off this matters as we are all in the matrix anyway.....I have a good stock off tinfoil hats in you need one.

 

[ChrisTex]

Nardo you sure you dont want to blame it all on George Soros? Or maybe none off this matters as we are all in the matrix anyway.....I have a good stock off tinfoil hats in you need one.

I thought the former health minister bought them all or did you get some more in stock?

 

[Dave70]