Twitter Wars: Bali vs. Kristen Gray

Ah, the pre-discussion discussion. Know it well. These days that's a solid five hours on Zoom.
 
Just curious, has she been in Indonesia for more than 183 days? If she hasn’t stayed for 6 months, then she’s not an Indonesian tax resident, which means she must still pay income tax to Uncle Sam.
 
Just curious, has she been in Indonesia for more than 183 days? If she hasn’t stayed for 6 months, then she’s not an Indonesian tax resident, which means she must still pay income tax to Uncle Sam.

In her first post, she wrote that she's been living in Bali for over a year. In another, her girlfriend wrote that they don't pay taxes because "we earn USD in the US not IDR in Bali" or something to that effect.
 
In her first post, she wrote that she's been living in Bali for over a year. In another, her girlfriend wrote that they don't pay taxes because "we earn USD in the US not IDR in Bali" or something to that effect.
Unless she can prove to the IRS that she’s an Indonesian resident, she still owes US income tax. Just staying for more than a year abroad doesn’t automatically qualify her for the status.

It looks like a double whammy to me. Indonesian authorities would like to know how she stays and works without the proper visa, and the IRS would be interested if she doesn’t state her income for taxation.
 
Not defending her but I assume a lot of those Jakartans are also tone deaf to the struggles of the Balinese economy. Is the situation ideal with these digital nomads? Certainly no. Is Bali better off with or without them at the moment though? When the tourism industry has come to a full stop, overstaying and tax evading digital nomads is better than nothing.

All this eco system around them (see Canggu, Ubud, etc) creates some economic activity and jobs which wouldn't be there at the moment without them.

Also, where is the outrage at all the Jakartans travelling to cheap Bali during covid and all the ways a certain segment of the local population is constantly seeking ways to skirt the rules?

These digital nomads are just another broken cog in a flawed and broken system.
 
In her first post, she wrote that she's been living in Bali for over a year. In another, her girlfriend wrote that they don't pay taxes because "we earn USD in the US not IDR in Bali" or something to that effect.
I'd say they are paying US taxes still - I didn't see any comments about them not paying any tax - just not Indo taxes.
 
Unless she can prove to the IRS that she’s an Indonesian resident, she still owes US income tax. Just staying for more than a year abroad doesn’t automatically qualify her for the status.

It looks like a double whammy to me. Indonesian authorities would like to know how she stays and works without the proper visa, and the IRS would be interested if she doesn’t state her income for taxation.

Yes, but it is up to her to establish one or the other. De facto she has been here for over a year, so she needs to file taxes (yeah, hahaha...her and 90% of Canggu). If she is subject to US income tax, then there are tax treaties to mitigate the issue of double taxation. But as countries tax different income differently and at different rates, there could still be taxes outstanding.

But for sure it's not as simple as "I earn USD in the US, so I don't have to pay taxes here".

I'm betting her e-book doesn't have a chapter on taxation, but I didn't check... :D
 
Yeah, but the word, probably brought here by Spanish speakers, does not have the same negative connotations here as it would in the English speaking world.
Indonesians just love the "Negro" look, hence the huge demand for skin blackening products!😂
 
Indonesians just love the "Negro" look, hence the huge demand for skin blackening products!😂

That Indonesians (and others with darker skin in the world) have been indoctrinated to think lighter skin is more desirable is unfortunately one of the lasting legacies of colonialism.
 
And Expatindo is getting retweeted left and right. I wonder if there is a traffic increase on the website and forum because of this.
 
Yes, but it is up to her to establish one or the other. De facto she has been here for over a year, so she needs to file taxes (yeah, hahaha...her and 90% of Canggu). If she is subject to US income tax, then there are tax treaties to mitigate the issue of double taxation. But as countries tax different income differently and at different rates, there could still be taxes outstanding.

But for sure it's not as simple as "I earn USD in the US, so I don't have to pay taxes here".

I'm betting her e-book doesn't have a chapter on taxation, but I didn't check... :D
I’m no expert on Indonesian tax, but it seems that any stay beyond 183 days subjects you to PPh 21.

Out of curiosity I did a calculation based on a person earning USD 15,000 a year, which should cover a modest living cost in Bali. USA would tax the first $9,875 at 10% and the rest at 12%, for a total of $1,603. Indonesia would tax the first $3,564 at 5% and the rest at 15%, for a total of $1,894. Even if she’s paying the IRS, she still owes Ditjen Pajak $291 in this scenario. The proper way of doing it is by paying Indo gov’t, then file exemption to U.S. gov’t. However, doing this will open a can of worms because a digital nomad is unlikely to have a visa allowing them to earn income.

Indo government normally has no easy way to prove that somebody is earning foreign income, that is until you advertise it to the entire interwebs.

Many digital nomads rely on income from Youtube, IG, selling ebooks, and such. In other word, they need followers. To gain followers, they need interesting stuff to offer. Edgy material (like how to not pay income tax) attracts people alright, but it’s the wrong kind of attention.
 
Well, that didn't take long.....


Hope she will be deported after a few weeks in detention.

She represents the kind of idiots that no country needs....

The new race of Twatters, vloggers, bloggers etc....

I guess I am gonna be shot down in flames for this post ?
 
That Indonesians (and others with darker skin in the world) have been indoctrinated to think lighter skin is more desirable is unfortunately one of the lasting legacies of colonialism.
While that is part of the colonial legacy there has long been a belief throughout Asia that having dark skin shows you are a commoner and having to work in the sun. Having light to white skin shows you are from a higher class. It is a major feature of advertising throughout India when seeking a matrimonial partner that the respondents should have light skin. Even in Africa being blacker than other Africans can be a cause for derision.
 
I’m no expert on Indonesian tax, but it seems that any stay beyond 183 days subjects you to PPh 21.

Out of curiosity I did a calculation based on a person earning USD 15,000 a year, which should cover a modest living cost in Bali. USA would tax the first $9,875 at 10% and the rest at 12%, for a total of $1,603. Indonesia would tax the first $3,564 at 5% and the rest at 15%, for a total of $1,894. Even if she’s paying the IRS, she still owes Ditjen Pajak $291 in this scenario. The proper way of doing it is by paying Indo gov’t, then file exemption to U.S. gov’t. However, doing this will open a can of worms because a digital nomad is unlikely to have a visa allowing them to earn income.

Indo government normally has no easy way to prove that somebody is earning foreign income, that is until you advertise it to the entire interwebs.

Many digital nomads rely on income from Youtube, IG, selling ebooks, and such. In other word, they need followers. To gain followers, they need interesting stuff to offer. Edgy material (like how to not pay income tax) attracts people alright, but it’s the wrong kind of attention.

Yup, basically this in a nutshell.
 
I’m no expert on Indonesian tax, but it seems that any stay beyond 183 days subjects you to PPh 21.

Out of curiosity I did a calculation based on a person earning USD 15,000 a year, which should cover a modest living cost in Bali. USA would tax the first $9,875 at 10% and the rest at 12%, for a total of $1,603. Indonesia would tax the first $3,564 at 5% and the rest at 15%, for a total of $1,894. Even if she’s paying the IRS, she still owes Ditjen Pajak $291 in this scenario. The proper way of doing it is by paying Indo gov’t, then file exemption to U.S. gov’t. However, doing this will open a can of worms because a digital nomad is unlikely to have a visa allowing them to earn income.
You did not include the standard deduction both countries provide ($12.4k and 54jt), US FTC or FEIE, or US FICA taxes. Such a person would pay zero US income tax, but would pay about 15% in FICA taxes, and I can't think of any tax credits that would help them.

Their total bill would likely be about $2000 to US and $1200 (18jt) to Indonesia.

Of course paying those taxes in Indonesia may be difficult, as you point out. I have heard stories of some WNA without work permit going to Kantor Pajak and being refused an NPWP. I had no problem getting NPWP while on a visit/tourist visa when I was still waiting for my work permit. My understanding is that it should always be possible, but some offices may refuse because they feel uncertain of the law, much like some SamSat outside major cities are not aware they can issue SIM to foreigners.
 
Immigration said she has a valid visa, and it looks like your typical SosBud.

However, imigrasi seems to have missed one problem (or maybe they're being nice): in her tweet, she said that she bought a one-way ticket to come here a year ago (pre-pandemic). As we all know, you have to have an onward ticket to use SosBud. Maybe she was using "poetic license", and actually had a return ticket. Still, her intention was clear, and she misrepresented it on her visa application, which technically invalidates it. Certainly, if the reverse was true (an Indonesian tourist traveling to the US with the intent of not returning), they would be deported, even if they at the time had a valid visa.

Anyway, not going to post this on Twitter, because I think the girls have been railroaded enough.

 
You did not include the standard deduction both countries provide ($12.4k and 54jt), US FTC or FEIE, or US FICA taxes. Such a person would pay zero US income tax, but would pay about 15% in FICA taxes, and I can't think of any tax credits that would help them.

Their total bill would likely be about $2000 to US and $1200 (18jt) to Indonesia.

Of course paying those taxes in Indonesia may be difficult, as you point out. I have heard stories of some WNA without work permit going to Kantor Pajak and being refused an NPWP. I had no problem getting NPWP while on a visit/tourist visa when I was still waiting for my work permit. My understanding is that it should always be possible, but some offices may refuse because they feel uncertain of the law, much like some SamSat outside major cities are not aware they can issue SIM to foreigners.
Thanks. This is what I got for relying on Turbotax and just plugging the numbers in year after year.
 
And Expatindo is getting retweeted left and right. I wonder if there is a traffic increase on the website and forum because of this.

Not really that I'm noticing, and that doesn't surprise me. Social media such as Twitter/FB seem to have a totally separate audience from online forums. For one, it is a pain to sign up and keep track of an additional password, and it doesn't quite give the same instant gratification.

Unless someone has a very specific question and/or wants to hang out with us in our forum, they don't bother signing up.

Still, this tweet is by a long shot the most viewed and interacted in @Expat_Indo's history. As of right now, it has over 656,000 impressions and over 175,000 engagements.
 
You...don't...follow...ExpatIndo...twitter??? :cry: :cry: :cry:
I don't follow ANY twitter. If I was going to pay any attention at all, though, I am sure Expat Indo would be on my list.

What's really weird, though, is that I have zero memory of this thread. I must have sleep-posted.
 

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