Twitter Wars: Bali vs. Kristen Gray

[Balifrog]

Main problem in this case.is STUPIDITY.

Raises the question "what did her parents teach her about life" ?

But than again, Americans.......

 

[Nimbus]

Part of the problem is the naive American tendency to assume that the rest of the world has the same ideals / principles that the US has. Two examples:

• "Free Speech" (at least free from government interference)... Americans assume that they will not face government consequences for things they say online, which is mostly true... in the United States.
• Totally different topic, but most Americans assume that "birthright citizenship" is a universal standard; they seem unaware that the US is the exception rather than the rule in having absolute birthright citizenship.

Those are two examples from the top of my head; I assume that there are many others.

To make it worse, many Americans have a warped understanding of free speech. The constitution only protects from abridgment of free speech by the government. Fellow citizens can still take action against you for your publicized opinion.

As for birthright citizenship, it is a feature of the “new world”, the Americas. USA is the most famous country that follows the Jus Soli doctrine, because it’s one of the few countries people want to be born in.

Jus soli - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Nimbus]

And there is a HUGE difference between acceptance of "rich" foreigner LGBTQ folks and local LGBTQ folk. I think Gray misinterpreted the acceptance she received was influenced by her apparent status level.

That is true. Indonesians in general are more accepting of vices made by moneyed foreigners. Local LGBTQ folks in Indonesia are tolerated only in their particular niche: entertainment and the arts.

 

[rabbit_39]

To give some context, minimum wage in Bali is US$175/month. A solid middle class income salaried worker can earn maybe US$800-1500/month.

Working as a freelancer in Fiver.com or freelancer.com or other platforms, if you earn $100/day x 22 work days a month = $2200/month income.

If the influencer has 100,000 followers on YouTube, a single sponsored video can put you squarely in the local middle class income. Let's say 3 sponsored videos gets you US$15,000 a year. Forbes says a single sponsored video can be US$12,500: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jrose/2019/03/21/how-much-do-youtubers-really-make. "A study from The Economist notes that influencers with at least 100,000 followers on YouTube can typically earn $12,500 for sponsored content, but those payments can escalate from there."

Even adsense for YouTubers living in Indonesia vs those in other countries can be vastly different. what you get paid per impression/click is much lower in Indonesia (because the advertisers pay less) than in the US or Europe.

Coming back to income disparity, US$1500/month is the equivalent of someone working for $10/hour x 40 hours/week x 1 month. Whereas US$1500/month is a VERY good salary in a middle management position in Indonesia. I'm not saying people shouldn't be making the money they are able to make based on their skills, competencies and knowledge. But we need to be aware that making a middle-class income in a Western scale means a vastly superior living standards in SE Asia. $400/month for housing? Ask many Indonesian middle class families how much they're paying for housing, I'd be surprised if the median isn't more in the $100-200/month for a family.

 

[Nimbus]

You get $1500 a month (Rp 21 million) if you’re an experienced manager or assistant GM in a five star hotel in Indonesia.

 

[rabbit_39]

You get $1500 a month (Rp 21 million) if you’re an experienced manager or assistant GM in a five star hotel in Indonesia.

Yeah that's true. In my experience working in consulting, I see people getting >$1000 and <$2500 in mid level management of international companies, a pretty senior (>10 years of experience) consultant working for a consulting company, engineers and analysts at companies (>10 years of experience), etc. So the jobs are there, but as compared to the jobs that earn minimum wage up to $1000, there are a LOT more people earning less than $1000...probably even skewed quite heavily toward the minimum wage end of the scale.

 

[Nimbus]

Yeah that's true. In my experience working in consulting, I see people getting >$1000 and <$2500 in mid level management of international companies, a pretty senior (>10 years of experience) consultant working for a consulting company, engineers and analysts at companies (>10 years of experience), etc. So the jobs are there, but as compared to the jobs that earn minimum wage up to $1000, there are a LOT more people earning less than $1000...probably even skewed quite heavily toward the minimum wage end of the scale.

Yeah, for every mid level manager earning $1500 a month, there are easily 10 people below him earning considerably less, and we’re only talking about the formal economy.

 

[Balifrog]

Hell, we're gone from the ethic point of view to salary level.

TBH, as an "middle level expat" I would never have moved out of my beach town in my country for 1500 USD....

Living the dream in Asia on that ?

Good luck !

 

[R Cameron]

To give some context, minimum wage in Bali is US$175/month.

And a huge number do not even earn minimum wage. I have never heard of a company having consequences for not paying minimum wage, and I know of it being commonplace for low level positions at large local PT companies that I should think would be a prime target for enforcement.

 

[rabbit_39]

Hell, we're gone from the ethic point of view to salary level.

TBH, as an "middle level expat" I would never have moved out of my beach town in my country for 1500 USD....

Living the dream in Asia on that ?

Good luck !

Of course you would never have moved out of a beach town for 1500USD. But you can't argue the fact that when your needs are simple, and a 1300 usd a month housing can be had for 400 USD a month (and loving the accommodations), you have 1100 USD a month left over for food (which can be had for 5 USD a day and be decent), that's compelling FOR SOME.

 

[Vulgarian]

Rent $400
Save $600
Alcohol $4000

Ah, my kind of budget. Question - are the savings really necessary, or...?

 

[HappyMan]

Of course you would never have moved out of a beach town for 1500USD. But you can't argue the fact that when your needs are simple, and a 1300 usd a month housing can be had for 400 USD a month (and loving the accommodations), you have 1100 USD a month left over for food (which can be had for 5 USD a day and be decent), that's compelling FOR SOME.

That's compelling for me. Where do I sign up?

 

[jukung11]

rabbit_39. Much of your analysis is factually correct, but a lot of the income numbers are "can" and not "does".

For youtube, only the top 1% of producers get over 1,000,000 views per month. The monetization under that drops drastically. Most of the "influencers" have under 10,000 views. The travel youtubers that make real money don't usually stay only in one spot, they travel to many locations and hire production companies. They can afford to get the proper visa.

For the freelance digital work, it is far less money earned than that for most of the platforms. There is some analysis, but less than .001% of the producers make $100 a day.

Here's how much money Americans are making from the gig economy

Roughly 25% of people in the US have a side hustle. The ones using this app make the most.

www.cnbc.com

The $1600 amount you estimated is freelance. That money is pretax, pre-expenses, no health care, no pension, no benefits. That is also part of the outrage in this case. Most Indonesians that make $1600 a month are supposed to pay taxes. (although Indonesia has a huge tax gap and one of the lowest GDP to tax collection in the world)

Most of the digital nomads I met in person had a full time career in tech that simply allowed them to work remotely, not freelance gigsite work. They were more motivated by staying with a significant other than with the cost of living adjustment. The hours were brutal too because of the time difference between the U.S. and Asia.

I agree with the analysis of Indonesian income. Last year the median individual salary in Indonesia was $183 per month. That means half of the population made less than that. It is harder to calculate median household income in Indonesia because households are usually larger and have more working adults in them.

What is at on display in this case, is what is at play in many scenarios. It is the psychology of the "relative income". There have been many psychological and sociological studies that people are happier getting less money as long as they are getting more than the people around them and are less happy getting more money than if everyone else around them is getting more. Despite having less disposable income for most of these "influencers", they are happier because they are comparing themselves to the poorer Indonesians surrounding them. The Indonesians are less happy about this. One of the major problems is the selling point used by both Kristen Gray and many others: the income disparity. Many of these "lifestyle influence" peddlers flaunt wealth or the perception of it.

Foreigners are not the only ones to come to Indonesia because of the “relative income” psychology. I have known plenty of Indonesians return to Indonesia to have far less disposable income, but they no longer felt like the lower rung in society. Foreigners are just not legally entitled to it (although some behave like they are).

 

[Balifrog]

Of course you would never have moved out of a beach town for 1500USD. But you can't argue the fact that when your needs are simple, and a 1300 usd a month housing can be had for 400 USD a month (and loving the accommodations), you have 1100 USD a month left over for food (which can be had for 5 USD a day and be decent), that's compelling FOR SOME.

Nope, as an expat my accomodation was always paid by my employer.

And BTW, even as a retired "expat" now in Bali my food budget is WAY over 5 USD a day .....
Hell, that doesn't even cover my Bintang budget !

 

[Nimbus]

Hell, we're gone from the ethic point of view to salary level.

TBH, as an "middle level expat" I would never have moved out of my beach town in my country for 1500 USD....

Living the dream in Asia on that ?

Good luck !

Sheet, I wouldn’t move to Indo for that amount, and I used to live there.

Living cost in Jakarta is roughly half of my city’s, yet at my career level in Indo I’d be earning 15-25% of my American salary. That’s a big drop in quality of life.

 

[rabbit_39]

Nope, as an expat my accomodation was always paid by my employer.

And BTW, even as a retired "expat" now in Bali my food budget is WAY over 5 USD a day .....
Hell, that doesn't even cover my Bintang budget !

The digital nomads who are the subject of this discussion don't have employers who pays for their accommodation. US$5 = IDR 80,000. Bubur ayam or Lontong sayur or nasi uduk in the morning = IDR 20,000. Bakmie ayam/nasi padang/soto ayam/fried rice = IDR 20,000. Sate ayam, babi guling = IDR 40,000

I'm not saying that your food budget isn't way over US$5/day, I'm only saying that it's not a hardship for most people to have a food budget of US$5/day.

Your bintang budget and many digital nomad's half-caf light on the foam soy milk cappucinno with cocoa sprinkles are optional budgets. Just as people in the US/Europe are living paycheck to paycheck without the option of drinking a daily case of beer or $10 budget for two coffees a day.

 

[Nimbus]

Ah, my kind of budget. Question - are the savings really necessary, or...?

You’ll need the money for the liver transplant, but if you imbibe local oplosan drink you may not live long enough to use it.

 

[rabbit_39]

Sheet, I wouldn’t move to Indo for that amount, and I used to live there.

Living cost in Jakarta is roughly half of my city’s, yet at my career level in Indo I’d be earning 15-25% of my American salary. That’s a big drop in quality of life.

heheh well you also no longer make $1500/month maximum

I think you might be underestimating your earning potential in Indonesia. It's true that the same level of position would earn far less in Indonesia than in the US. But you can probably get a job several levels higher than what you're doing now if you do move to Indonesia.

Just some numbers for you in Jakarta:

• a 15-20m2 kost (room rental) including electricity, internet, cable TV, water, garbage is about US$125-150/month
• a 25-30m2 apartment including electricity, internet, cable TB, water, garbage, management fee is about US$ 350-400/month. You can get cheaper prices if you rent apartments at cheaply built apartments (like Kalibata City).

Food, I've broken down in a previous post. even if you double it to US$10/day = US$300/month.

Transportation, if you take gocar twice a day at IDR 40,000 each time, that's around US$5/day. so around $150/month. Let's do $200/month.

So far that's US$700/month in costs where you'll be living in a decent room or apartment, decent food, and decent transportation.

Additional US$800 for entertainment (bintang, Starbucks, etc), insurances if you want (BPJS anyone? ), savings (for pension and emergencies), etc should be enough, no?

I'm not saying I would have moved to Indonesia for $1500 or that everyone should. Only that for some people, living in Bali while earning $1500/month can be compelling. Especially if they think they can earn that money by doing the work remotely (creative work, consulting, research, etc).

 

[rabbit_39]

That's compelling for me. Where do I sign up?

fiverr.com, freelancer.com

 

[rabbit_39]

rabbit_39. Much of your analysis is factually correct, but a lot of the income numbers are "can" and not "does".

Point taken, I am only taking references since I do not earn my money through social media and/or creative remote work.

For youtube, only the top 1% of producers get over 1,000,000 views per month. The monetization under that drops drastically. Most of the "influencers" have under 10,000 views. The travel youtubers that make real money don't usually stay only in one spot, they travel to many locations and hire production companies. They can afford to get the proper visa.

Absolutely, but that's also why a lot of social media influencers make money from merchandise, selling online courses, and selling e-books.

For the freelance digital work, it is far less money earned than that for most of the platforms. There is some analysis, but less than .001% of the producers make $100 a day.

I think that can be true if you take the number of people registered in the platforms and divide the earnings made through the platform by that total number. But we're really talking about a population of that total number of people registered in the platform who are willing to make the work through the platforms their full time job, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year (or more). When you consider the "full time" freelancers, I'm sure the percentage of those that make the equivalent of US$1500/day is much higher than 0.01%.

Here's how much money Americans are making from the gig economy

Roughly 25% of people in the US have a side hustle. The ones using this app make the most.

www.cnbc.com

The $1600 amount you estimated is freelance. That money is pretax, pre-expenses, no health care, no pension, no benefits. That is also part of the outrage in this case. Most Indonesians that make $1600 a month are supposed to pay taxes. (although Indonesia has a huge tax gap and one of the lowest GDP to tax collection in the world)

Absolutely, for many of the digital nomads, that's their preferred mode of income, correct? Or am I wrong? They're willing to trade security with comfort and perceived quality of life. They would rather live in Kuta (for example) and be able to party 5 nights a week.

Let's say they pay taxes, 20% of their earnings that leaves them with $1200/month. Expenses such as housing ($300/month?), food ($300/month?), transport ($200/month?). That leaves $400 for optional expenses such as partying, bintangs, etc. Or am I missing something? Health care, they can join BPJS (Indonesia's health care) for aobut $50/month? Pension/savings is part of the optional expenses, how much do they want to save? Benefits... like what else (optical, dental)?

Most of the digital nomads I met in person had a full time career in tech that simply allowed them to work remotely, not freelance gigsite work. They were more motivated by staying with a significant other than with the cost of living adjustment. The hours were brutal too because of the time difference between the U.S. and Asia.

That can be true, but that means they're earning more than $1500/month right? The hours are manageable. At least for me anyway

I agree with the analysis of Indonesian income. Last year the median individual salary in Indonesia was $183 per month. That means half of the population made less than that. It is harder to calculate median household income in Indonesia because households are usually larger and have more working adults in them.

I think mostly I was just trying to give context to what the digital nomads (including those making "only" $1500/month) are earning vs. what the locals are making. There is almost no reason (I'll make some exceptions to a few foreign immigrants in Indonesia who are struggling financially) for someone like the person that's the topic of this discussion to complain about how difficult life is in Indonesia. As a matter of fact Kristen Gray is the opposite, right? Making arguments that "life is easy" in Bali and for others to follow her footsteps by buying her e-book.

What is at on display in this case, is what is at play in many scenarios. It is the psychology of the "relative income". There have been many psychological and sociological studies that people are happier getting less money as long as they are getting more than the people around them and are less happy getting more money than if everyone else around them is getting more. Despite having less disposable income for most of these "influencers", they are happier because they are comparing themselves to the poorer Indonesians surrounding them. The Indonesians are less happy about this. One of the major problems is the selling point used by both Kristen Gray and many others: the income disparity. Many of these "lifestyle influence" peddlers flaunt wealth or the perception of it.

But she's correct though that life is relatively easy in Indonesia if you can make "just" $1500/month. Absolutely they're trading wealth with "happiness", if their definition of happiness is:

• able to live in a room/villa that cost them $400 whereas a small apartment in the US can be $1300
• able to live in a place where you can see blue skies, rice paddies, mountains, trees, beaches every morning
• LGBT friendly (at least toward them as foreigners)
• able to live around "nice people"
• have enough money to "party" when they want to
• etc

Foreigners are not the only ones to come to Indonesia because of the “relative income” psychology. I have known plenty of Indonesians return to Indonesia to have far less disposable income, but they no longer felt like the lower rung in society. Foreigners are just not legally entitled to it (although some behave like they are).

Hmmm... I'm not saying that your experiences are invalid, but that's not been my experience. many Indonesians who return to Indonesia that are within my circles are for the majority:

• have family businesses that are successful enough that even if they don't make the same amount of money in Indonesia, their relative wealth is "more" in Indonesia with their family businesses
• can not get a good long term jobs abroad
• family issues

As far as I know, foreigners are absolutely legally entitled to live in Indonesia within the existing legal provisions. Even including the digital nomads who make <$1500/month and those people who are paid by their employers to live in Indonesia.

Just that in the discussions among ourselves (whether in this forum, or outside), we just need to have the context of how the locals really live. Not just the ones we interact, but as a whole spectrum. I know people who are earning $200/month or less and they're raising a family of 4. For them $100 is a HUGE amount of money that allows them to have a living, not just for Bintangs for 3-4 nights. It's all about context.