PLN bill doubled for no feasible reason...

fastpitch17

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That's a nice unit for a good concept but, would not the savings take 10 or more years for pay back? That would take you past the warrantee period. If you were in the 5 to 6 juta a month in electrical use, you would probably need more then one of these things so payback would take just as long. Doesn't seem economical yet.
 

jstar

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Don't know FP, all depends on capacity and electricity prices of course, I did not calculate it for here yet. I did read in a serious article that a Dutch couple would have a payback in 8 years. Warranty in RI must be a completely new concept (and how would it be implemented?)

Something that is also great about this system and where you can not really put a $ amount on, is the convenience of a power regulator and backup (similar to an UPS and generator) combined, and the piece of mind when you live somewhere with many power outages. (We have on average three 'small' ones per week, and many LED lights and devices give up after a year or so.) In fact it also makes a lot of sense to combine it with a plug-in car.
 

Bad_azz

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I would love to switch to solar panels.
I would not love to pay for them though... so I keep looking at alternatives- I did like the DIY one from empty pop cans :D however, it would not make enough power for us.

I sometimes wonder if I could harness the little stream outside, make a mini dam & have hydro-power. :)
A project for me & the genius bro in law to look into for the future I guess.
 

fastpitch17

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What about wind instead of solar? I suppose the power generation unit would be all that is different and after that the batteries and control systems would be the same. I know there are some small, roof mounted wind generators that put out pretty good wattage. I seen some on a TV show with Jay Leno autos. He has them mounted on most of his properties. Of course, cost probably isn't a factor to him. What I seen was something more drum shaped with vanes that the breeze drives.
 

Davita

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A system of solar/wind/dam etc would probably be viable for independent users if there was a complimentary system of reverse payment for any excess energy being returned to the grid.
They have such systems elsewhere.....but Indonesia?...may take a while.

Storing energy is the critical factor and is being worked on by Musk and others. Someone will find/invent a storage system for renewable energy, like liquid gasoline, and make a fortune...I'd delight to see that in my lifetime.
Some years ago I invested heavily in hydrogen technology as the USA/Canada west coast politicians proclaimed that hydrogen stations would be as numerous as gas stations.
Anyone seen a hydrogen pump.....nary one...I lost my investment.
 

El_Goretto

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Don't know FP, all depends on capacity and electricity prices of course, I did not calculate it for here yet. I did read in a serious article that a Dutch couple would have a payback in 8 years. Warranty in RI must be a completely new concept (and how would it be implemented?)

Something that is also great about this system and where you can not really put a $ amount on, is the convenience of a power regulator and backup (similar to an UPS and generator) combined, and the piece of mind when you live somewhere with many power outages. (We have on average three 'small' ones per week, and many LED lights and devices give up after a year or so.) In fact it also makes a lot of sense to combine it with a plug-in car.


Tesla will also sell those solar roof tiles which will look much better than regular old solar panels.

In Japan last month, I noticed in the country side that a lot of houses have solar panels.

I believe that at the moment, solar panels for residential areas doesn't really take off without some kind of government subsidies. It also makes me wonder why the RI government doesn't have a solar power subsidie plan in place to fill the gap in electricity shortages. Seems to me like a faster turn around than huge power plant projects that take years to take off.
 

William King

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I sometimes wonder if I could harness the little stream outside, make a mini dam & have hydro-power. :) .

My brother set one up at his house in Australia. It most certainly is possible, and it was a small stream - but he didn't have energy hungry appliances, like AC to suck power.
 

rabbit_39

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That's a nice unit for a good concept but, would not the savings take 10 or more years for pay back? That would take you past the warrantee period. If you were in the 5 to 6 juta a month in electrical use, you would probably need more then one of these things so payback would take just as long. Doesn't seem economical yet.

Against PLN prices, yes. Even though PLN rates has increased (CAGR calculation) 7+% annually from 2004 to 2017, it's still a low tariff. We're all paying about 11 cents/kWh right now for residential rates.
 

rabbit_39

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Don't know FP, all depends on capacity and electricity prices of course, I did not calculate it for here yet.
The problem currently in Indonesia is electricity prices through PLN. It's just too low. If you match the capacity (solar + batteries) and compare it against PLN, your payback period (various ways to calculate) range between 12 to 20 years.

Warranty in RI must be a completely new concept (and how would it be implemented?)
It's not...but the fair application of a warranty is, in my experience.

Something that is also great about this system and where you can not really put a $ amount on, is the convenience of a power regulator and backup (similar to an UPS and generator) combined, and the piece of mind when you live somewhere with many power outages. (We have on average three 'small' ones per week, and many LED lights and devices give up after a year or so.) In fact it also makes a lot of sense to combine it with a plug-in car.
You can look at installing a system that saves you on your PLN bill with the solar panel capacity, but then install a smaller set of batteries just to match the duration and frequency of your blackouts. Ask me in a few weeks (maybe if the mods are nice, I'll do something for the website ;)) and I'll try to set up an excel sheet and/or article on how to calculate these things.
 

rabbit_39

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I would love to switch to solar panels.
I would not love to pay for them though...
Why not? If you're not using a lot of electricity, a 2kW system is about US$3000. It will produce about 7kWh/day, which is about $0.77 per day. which is about $281/year. So around 11 year payback IF PLN rates don't go up. If it keeps going up at the same annual rate since 2004 then:
1st year - $281
2nd year - $300
3rd year - $322
4th year - $344
5th year - $368
6th year - $394
7th year - $422
8th year - $451
9th year - $482

So about 8.5 years payback if PLN rates continue going up like it has been the last 13 years.

Another way to look at it is how much it will cost you to produce electricity from the system over its lifetime. Assuming the lifetime is only 20 years and you have to put in $2000 in that time for maintenance, inverter replacement, etc, then the system will produce electricity at a cost of: $5000/51,100kWh = around 9.8 cents. For the whole of 20 years.

Now these are very simplified calculations of course. There are things like Levelized Cost of Electricity, IRR, etc that can be done to look at the economics.

I sometimes wonder if I could harness the little stream outside, make a mini dam & have hydro-power. :)

Yes, there are pico hydro turbines (<1kW) that you can get, just need to make sure there's enough energy in the stream (flow velocity, volume, head, etc)
 

rabbit_39

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What about wind instead of solar?
Just make sure get a small wind turbine that have been certified properly. Most are just "toys" even if you were paying $500 to $2000 for it.

I know there are some small, roof mounted wind generators that put out pretty good wattage.
Questions for those wind turbines:
- what wind speed is required to make that power
- what is the "cut in" speed? But this isn't what's important, all this is saying is that at what speed would the blades start spinning
- What does the actual power curve vs wind speed look like? Not theoretical, but actual third party independent tested based on industry recognized test procedures
- what wind speeds (and direction) are you getting at the location of installation

What I seen was something more drum shaped with vanes that the breeze drives.

These are vertical axis wind turbines (VAWT). pretty high losses, low efficiency, and low power. Because they're mounted low (can't be as high as horizontal axis wind turbines due to the mechanical stresses) they just don't get as much wind. And power goes up to the third power of wind speed. So you want wind speed to get power.
 

rabbit_39

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A system of solar/wind/dam etc would probably be viable for independent users if there was a complimentary system of reverse payment for any excess energy being returned to the grid.
They have such systems elsewhere.....but Indonesia?...may take a while.
You mean a net metering system? PLN has that since 2013. :D

Storing energy is the critical factor and is being worked on by Musk and others.
More "others" than Musk.

Someone will find/invent a storage system for renewable energy, like liquid gasoline, and make a fortune...I'd delight to see that in my lifetime.
There are quite a bit of energy storage systems out there that are getting to be and in many cases are financially viable as investments. Probably not as a residential system compared against PLN. However, compared against diesel fuel in remote areas (not even remote, just compared against diesel fuel cost of around $1/L being used in a diesel generator), even for a small 3kW system it is making some financial sense. Especially as it scales up larger into a resort, or off-grid factories.

Some years ago I invested heavily in hydrogen technology as the USA/Canada west coast politicians proclaimed that hydrogen stations would be as numerous as gas stations.
Anyone seen a hydrogen pump.....nary one...I lost my investment.
Yeah, I'm not a big believer in hydrogen except when used as excess power strategy.
 
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Davita

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They do, but not for residential.

According to this information in 2016 the peak/offpeak system is not even used for industrial/business (I and B tariffs) in Indonesia....not sure about 2017.

Peak and Off Peak pricing

For tariffs B3, I3, I4 and P2 the PLN price schedule allows for charging of electricity at different rates for “peak†and “off peak†periods. In fact this system is not in use at the moment - the price of electricity is the same at all times of the day. On your bill these periods are marked WBP (Waktu Beban Puncak - peak load period) and LWBP (Luar Waktu Beban Puncak - outside peak load period)

However, It does provide for excess industrial overuse penalties.
 

rabbit_39

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Tesla will also sell those solar roof tiles which will look much better than regular old solar panels.
This has been available as solar tiles/solar shingles for quite a while. Way before Tesla announced it this has been available, they just have a better marketing engine behind them.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/im-getting-my-roof-redone-and-heard-about-solar-shingles/

I believe that at the moment, solar panels for residential areas doesn't really take off without some kind of government subsidies. It also makes me wonder why the RI government doesn't have a solar power subsidie plan in place to fill the gap in electricity shortages. Seems to me like a faster turn around than huge power plant projects that take years to take off.

solar rooftop right now need little incentive/subsidy to make it financially viable for the facility owner. Not quite yet as an investment for larger entities. But it's getting there. There are companies who are offering private power purchase agreements at commercial levels for US$0.11/kWh with maybe 2% annual increases for 15 years. Some commercial facilities are seeing these contracts as starting to make sense. Especially if they're an international company with a mandate to reduce CO2 or energy consumption.

As far as covering electricity shortages, solar (and wind) without storage does not take the place as additional power generators. They're an energy generator. Their function is to provide energy but not power. By that what I mean is that if you add 100MW of solar panels alone to the grid, you need to have 100MW (or some percentage of this, depending on the flexibility of the grid) of quick responding generation so that if the solar output drops due to cloud cover, the other generators will cover the sudden deficit. It does have a place in the grid though, as part of a larger strategy.

Also, a quick lesson on PLN:
- they can't increase consumer tariff due to rising costs (only if the effects come from Indonesian Crude Price, Inflation, and USD Forex)
- their electricity subsidy is decreasing every year
- the electricity subsidy is strictly based on the volume of energy (kWh) consumed by the consumers subscribed at 450VA and 900VA (AND registered below the poverty line)
- so any cost increases due to purchasing renewable energy at a tariff higher than their current electricity generation cost is a money losing proposition for PLN
 

rabbit_39

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According to this information in 2016 the peak/offpeak system is not even used for industrial/business (I and B tariffs) in Indonesia....not sure about 2017.

Peak and Off Peak pricing

For tariffs B3, I3, I4 and P2 the PLN price schedule allows for charging of electricity at different rates for “peak” and “off peak” periods. In fact this system is not in use at the moment - the price of electricity is the same at all times of the day. On your bill these periods are marked WBP (Waktu Beban Puncak - peak load period) and LWBP (Luar Waktu Beban Puncak - outside peak load period)

However, It does provide for excess industrial overuse penalties.

Where did you get that quote from? For prepaid, that's true. BUT B3, I3, and I4 don't have prepaid option, they're post-paid only.

This is the latest PLN tariff: http://www.pln.co.id/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/02_TA.jpg
 

rabbit_39

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Mine was from last year but your updated is the same. There isn't any difference in price between WBP and LWBP for business/industry (B&I tariffs).

It's the K factor that determines the difference. the base rate is the same, that's correct. But peak rates will have a multiplier, I've seen a lot of 1.5x multiplier, a few 1.7.
 

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