No Indonesian Culture

[Balifrog]

In 85/87 BC? If you would have read the article I posted, you would have seen that in Korea since thousands of years….

Sorry, I am not that old.
Thanks for your nice and constructive reply anyway .....

 

[centurion]

It is just the Bule sharp nose beauty fascination. See also Michael Jackson and Megan Markle of course. Same with chin btw, many selebriti have that ‘fixed’ too.


In 85/87 BC? If you would have read the article I posted, you would have seen that in Korea since thousands of years….


Nah, it’s just a mix with Chinese, Indian and Arab influences. And a bit of Portuguese and Dutch. In (Indonesian!) studies they came to the conclusion that perhaps only three dishes are ‘original’. A sate and nasi goreng exist everywhere in some form or shape in (South) East Asia. And see for instance Padang food. Or Gado-gado. That’s a Chinese Betawi interpretation…


Yep, white is rich, dark is poor. There are even (rather racist/bigot) words between the Chinese Indonesians for those with darker skin and who are often poor (from Tangerang or so): Hitaci. of course the first part of the acronym means hitam.


Again, even if it already existed in the wild, it was cultivated under Indian and Chinese influences (pre Islam). And it was aristocratic food, rather upscale. It only became a staple food under the Dutch who also improved the sub-par production. Similar for sweet potatoes in Papua btw, but by the Portuguese.

What a bunch of bullshit meditations on the subject. I apologize in case you can trace your origin directly to the ancient Romans, Greeks, Indians, or similar great civilizations.

By that logic, there is no German culture as there was no German state until 1871, or there is no US culture as the country started in 1776, or there is no any South-American culture as the countries are a mix of various races and nations made independent in the 19th century.

 

[jstar]

What a bunch of bullshit meditations on the subject. I apologize in case you can trace your origin directly to the ancient Romans, Greeks, Indians, or similar great civilizations.

By that logic, there is no German culture as there was no German state until 1871, or there is no US culture as the country started in 1776, or there is no any South-American culture as the countries are a mix of various races and nations made independent in the 19th century.

I really wonder what you talk about. Perhaps some argumentation would be nice for a change.

Call something BS if you like but at least give some valid reasons -don’t à la @centurion, use argumentum ad hominem- and don’t start gibbering about an (Roman or German) empire or civilization (?) which I never ever mentioned in the first place.

What I did mention, was that practically everything that could be considered as Indonesian culture, whether it’s art, culinary, laws, habits, …. can very easily be traced back to influences by other groups. Whether it was by trade, immigrants or colonists. And some of these are very recent. So far, I have not read anything in this thread that made me say “ah yes, that’s real Indonesian, that is typical”. It’s a medley. And that doesn’t make it wrong, cherry picking and taking something and developing that to give it your own twist is not bad.

 

[centurion]

I really wonder what you talk about. Perhaps some argumentation would be nice for a change.

Call something BS if you like but at least give some valid reasons -don’t à la @centurion, use argumentum ad hominem- and don’t start gibbering about an (Roman or German) empire (?) which I never ever mentioned in the first place.

Are you French? That would explain many things.

 

[jstar]

Are you French? That would explain many things.

Are you a bigot? That would explain many things also.

 

[fastpitch17]

What I did mention, was that practically everything that could be considered as Indonesian culture, whether it’s art, culinary, laws, habits, …. can very easily be traced back to influences by other groups. Whether it was by trade, immigrants or colonists. And some of these are very recent. So far, I have not read anything in this thread that made me say “ah yes, that’s real Indonesian, that is typical”. It’s a medley. And that doesn’t make it wrong, cherry picking and taking something and developing that to give it your own twist is not bad.

Just like the US since the refugees on the Mayflower landed.

 

[centurion]

Are you a bigot? That would explain many things also.

I am not a bigot. If you are French, you are a member of a highly civilized and noble society, and your attitude toward other nations would be understandable.

Actually, I admire you and I am secretly envious. How lucky you are.

 

[jukung11]

But ... in this thread .. the OP was asking for typical Indonesia culture .. in my opinion doesn't necesarry has be 'original', right? Or exclusive? But then .. I am not an antropologist..

That is how I interpret culture. If you trace any technology, food, or value back far enough you can find it copied from other peoples that may or may not be traceable to modern national borders.

Even if a food is not originated or exclusive to one country, when it is universally adopted often with a distinct expression by a culture, I would call it that culture's own. I just watched a documentary about the history of cheese. It was traced back to the middle east. Even though it is not from Europe, is it a definable part of European culture? Absolutely. Can we further differentiate different expressions and cultural values around it between different European nations? Sure. What cheese is considered good? How is it eaten? When is it eaten? What do you never eat it with? All these questions have different answers based on different people that may or may not share the same national border.

Most Indonesians I have interacted with rarely view the cheeses I value with the same cultural values as me. One thing I noticed was a prevalence of liking soft, young cheeses, and usually only referring to them as part of a sweet treat like terang bulan.

Rice being consumed at the levels it is today is a fairly current thing. It developed in the past 25 or so years. Before rice everywhere there were other types of starches consumed regularly like casava and yams. Rice was just brought into heavy use because it was a cheap filler.

Even if it is more recent, it is still considered a universal staple today across almost all of Indonesia, even the east. Although Nasi Padang originated in Sumatra, I have found these restaurants across most large urban areas that I have traveled throughout Indonesia. They are being adopted as universally Indonesian.

Jstar, If you follow your definition of culture as having originated in an area, some spices originated in Indonesia. Nutmeg and clove were from Maluku and were largely traded and part of Indonesian cuisine for thousands of years before the Dutch showed up.

This reminds me of a distinct Indonesian product, the kretek. Even though it is mixed with tobacco, which technically originated in the Americas, the combination with clove is uniquely Indonesian. Its usage crosses almost all cultural groups of Indonesia. When I am abroad and randomly smell kretek, I can always find Indonesians around. When I go to Indonesian areas (restaurants, churches, mosques, or embassies), I always smell kretek.

It also makes me think of betel nut. Some history shows origin from Indonesian islands. Although not exclusive to Indonesia, it is still one of the higher usage countries of the world.

Even if we share different definitions of what is Indonesian culture, I feel that the users of this forum could probably be creative and come up with additional or better examples if we stayed positive and put our minds to it.

 

[fastpitch17]

That is how I interpret culture. If you trace any technology, food, or value back far enough you can find it copied from other peoples that may or may not be traceable to modern national borders.

Even if a food is not originated or exclusive to one country, when it is universally adopted often with a distinct expression by a culture, I would call it that culture's own. I just watched a documentary about the history of cheese. It was traced back to the middle east. Even though it is not from Europe, is it a definable part of European culture? Absolutely. Can we further differentiate different expressions and cultural values around it between different European nations? Sure. What cheese is considered good? How is it eaten? When is it eaten? What do you never eat it with? All these questions have different answers based on different people that may or may not share the same national border.

Most Indonesians I have interacted with rarely view the cheeses I value with the same cultural values as me. One thing I noticed was a prevalence of liking soft, young cheeses, and usually only referring to them as part of a sweet treat like terang bulan.



Even if it is more recent, it is still considered a universal staple today across almost all of Indonesia, even the east. Although Nasi Padang originated in Sumatra, I have found these restaurants across most large urban areas that I have traveled throughout Indonesia. They are being adopted as universally Indonesian.

Jstar, If you follow your definition of culture as having originated in an area, some spices originated in Indonesia. Nutmeg and clove were from Maluku and were largely traded and part of Indonesian cuisine for thousands of years before the Dutch showed up.

This reminds me of a distinct Indonesian product, the kretek. Even though it is mixed with tobacco, which technically originated in the Americas, the combination with clove is uniquely Indonesian. Its usage crosses almost all cultural groups of Indonesia. When I am abroad and randomly smell kretek, I can always find Indonesians around. When I go to Indonesian areas (restaurants, churches, mosques, or embassies), I always smell kretek.

It also makes me think of betel nut. Some history shows origin from Indonesian islands. Although not exclusive to Indonesia, it is still one of the higher usage countries of the world.

Even if we share different definitions of what is Indonesian culture, I feel that the users of this forum could probably be creative and come up with additional or better examples if we stayed positive and put our minds to it.

What I originally referred to in my question was when people say something is Indonesian culture. While you are correct in what you say, you point to various culture followings as regional at best. While something may have originated from a specific area, it is part of that area's culture but it spreads. It still belongs to that area even though it spread and has been adapted by others.

My question is, what can be referred to as Indonesian as a whole culture? I can find things that fit the larger groups like Betawi, Sunda, Batak, etc. Those larger groups have variations of many earlier things that at one time belonged primarily to their tribes. When something spreads out and is accepted by the populas, does that make it a national culture? Even with all the variations?

I say the US has no culture of it's own simply because it is a nation built on migration from other nations which infused various cultures into a hodgepodge one of mixing. Indonesia is no different and is mixed slso by migration but not from other nations, but from the various tribe population movements. Forced migration by the Dutch, by the Indonesian Government, and by migration into the cities to find employment. A lot of mixing of cultures. So I doubt anything can be referred to as Indonesian specific Culture.

 

[Samoerai]

Although Nasi Padang originated in Sumatra, I have found these restaurants across most large urban areas that I have traveled throughout Indonesia. They are being adopted as universally Indonesian.

And if some dishes are not part or can not be referred as specific Indonesian culture ... talking about it, is surely a characteristic of Indonesian people. In The Netherlands talking about the weather is really common to start a conversation.

 

[jstar]

Jstar, If you follow your definition of culture as having originated in an area, some spices originated in Indonesia. Nutmeg and clove were from Maluku……………This reminds me of a distinct Indonesian product, the kretek.

Now that’s more like it.

Perhaps a Cendol and Kelapa Munda have a similar status.

Of course certain things can be made culturally owned (if that word combination even exists). I guess then we enter UNESCO territory. As with Champagne, Parmesan, Iberico, but also the intangible cultural heritage.

But even then we’re often limited to a particular region, as @fastpitch17 stated in his OP. And I think the occurrence and acceptance level of certain food or restaurants is not really defining since then we could call Sederhana, Kopi Kenayan or even KFC, Indonesian.

An example I can come up with are certain types of fairy tails. Esp. those with a mermaid (or variations as female sea monster or princess living in the water). Practically all islands have these similar kind of stories, probably based on a Hindu goddess.

 

[fastpitch17]

An example I can come up with are certain types of fairy tails. Esp. those with a mermaid (or variations as female sea monster or princess living in the water). Practically all islands have these similar kind of stories, probably based on a Hindu goddess.

Perhaps some due to Hindu beliefs but looking at Folklore of the world, simular stories exist for most populated island and areas containing a coast be it ocean, sea, or even lake. Inland lore resembles many tales around the world.

 

[centurion]

I say the US has no culture of it's own simply because it is a nation built on migration

Could be said, but at the same time, US culture and cultural influences are the strongest in the world (Hollywood, music, and other cultural trends). Quite a good achievement for a country without culture.

 

[Bob]

I say the US has no culture of it's own simply because it is a nation built on migration from other nations which infused various cultures into a hodgepodge one of mixing. Indonesia is no different and is mixed slso by migration but not from other nations, but from the various tribe population movements. Forced migration by the Dutch, by the Indonesian Government, and by migration into the cities to find employment. A lot of mixing of cultures. So I doubt anything can be referred to as Indonesian specific Culture.

Not many countries have a unique culture that's practiced by the big majority of the population. There's Japan and...? Even in relatively homogeneous places like England and France there are big differences in regional cultures.
I'd say the US does have its own unique cultures (New England, Southern Appalachian, Cajun, etc.) which, mixed with those of more recent immigrant groups, result in the national culture.
The same with Indonesia although the significant immigration was some time back.

 

[Balifrog]

Could be said, but at the same time, US culture and cultural influences are the strongest in the world (Hollywood, music, and other cultural trends). Quite a good achievement for a country without culture.

Hollywood is culture ?

 

[Samoerai]

Hollywood is culture ?

I say "yes" ... together with the Oscars events. India's "Bollywood" too. And maybe also Indonesia's Dangdut? Maori dance in New Zealand?

 

[Samoerai]

Not many countries have a unique culture that's practiced by the big majority of the population. There's Japan and...?

Mexico? Sweden? Norway?

 

[jstar]

Japan

Of course (historical) isolation helped/helps to create a rather unique culture….

 

[Balifrog]

I say "yes" ... together with the Oscars events. India's "Bollywood" too. And maybe also Indonesia's Dangdut ..

You seem to mix up culture with entertaintment .....
Oscar event is a cultural event...... Mama Mia !

 

[jstar]

But isn’t entertainment a part of culture? Just like culinary, habits, opinions and view on things, laws, ….

In the US example I would even add ‘fast food’ and ‘individual freedom’ to their culture. As well as striving for the ‘American dream‘ perhaps.