new podcast: Indonesia's Defence Dilemma

MamangDudul said:
Can someone explain to me again why the USA would want to remove Prabowo? Because I don't really see why.

Cause he is supposedly pro China? I guess no one gets around China these days business wise. I know many Chinese Indonesians who didn't vote for Prabowo though, cause they think his role in 98 is controversial to say the least. Not that we will ever find out, but that left a deep mark within many Chinese.
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Here's a couple:

He was trained in the US and supplied with US armaments which he used in East Timur - Some claim for war crimes - Embarrassing
As above, but for 1998
He was on their persona non grata list for alleged war crimes but they were forced to allow him in
when he became defence minister
His stance leans more towards China than it does the States.
He supports de-dollorisation - A major threat to the US economy
He is unsure about buying weapons system from the States - He likes to buy elsewhere - see France and aircraft purchases

Another noteworthy politician is very pro-US, and would give them what Prabowo won't. He's pro-Dollar, and anti-China. In the world as we see it today, that's a big thing.

That's off the top of my head so open to error or addition
 
John indonesia said:
Here's a couple:

He was trained in the US and supplied with US armaments which he used in East Timur - Some claim for war crimes - Embarrassing
As above, but for 1998
He was on their persona non grata list for alleged war crimes but they were forced to allow him in
when he became defence minister
His stance leans more towards China than it does the States.
He supports de-dollorisation - A major threat to the US economy
He is unsure about buying weapons system from the States - He likes to buy elsewhere - see France and aircraft purchases

Another noteworthy politician is very pro-US, and would give them what Prabowo won't. He's pro-Dollar, and anti-China. In the world as we see it today, that's a big thing.

That's off the top of my head so open to error or addition
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He was trained in the US. The government of Indonesia bought weapons from the US. Many Indonesian generals directed their use. It wasn't like when Prabowo was set to leave the US they stopped him and said, here, take these weapons as a parting gift.

Yeah, probably was involved in war crimes but as long as he's alive, it will be kept swept under the carpet.

His stance is a lot like the current administration when it comes to china. China is getting their fingers on a lot of things here with the blessing of the current administration but no one is saying the US is out to get Jokowi nor have they ever said that.

He is still buying billions of dollars of US fighter aircraft from the US. More than they have ever spent before because they are buying new and not staying with the old way of buying used off the lot.

OK, there is a pro US politician here. Actually, plenty of them. So what? Do you think the CIA is going to come it and cause an overthrow of the government? Knock off Prabowo and the kid takes over?

The only thing about Prabowo that really concerns me is not that he was trained in the US but he was trained and influenced by Suharto who used the military to enforce his interest. He finally won an election and he feels now he has power. Power is what he always wanted. It may easily go to his head and start acting like a dictator. Indonesia's trump.
 
John indonesia said:
They are, and Indonesia is likely getting a lot of training value from them.
The question is, in the event of a warming up of the cool war we're experiencing at the moment, would the US try to remove Prabowo, or even invade on a WMD style pretext?
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Prabowo is US player.
 
fastpitch17 said:
He was trained in the US. The government of Indonesia bought weapons from the US. Many Indonesian generals directed their use. It wasn't like when Prabowo was set to leave the US they stopped him and said, here, take these weapons as a parting gift.

Yeah, probably was involved in war crimes but as long as he's alive, it will be kept swept under the carpet.

His stance is a lot like the current administration when it comes to china. China is getting their fingers on a lot of things here with the blessing of the current administration but no one is saying the US is out to get Jokowi nor have they ever said that.

He is still buying billions of dollars of US fighter aircraft from the US. More than they have ever spent before because they are buying new and not staying with the old way of buying used off the lot.

OK, there is a pro US politician here. Actually, plenty of them. So what? Do you think the CIA is going to come it and cause an overthrow of the government? Knock off Prabowo and the kid takes over?

The only thing about Prabowo that really concerns me is not that he was trained in the US but he was trained and influenced by Suharto who used the military to enforce his interest. He finally won an election and he feels now he has power. Power is what he always wanted. It may easily go to his head and start acting like a dictator. Indonesia's trump.
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We hoped Joko is the guy, but what he did during his term was exactly what everybody thought Prabowo would do.
 
centurion said:
We hoped Joko is the guy, but what he did during his term was exactly what everybody thought Prabowo would do.
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First term went pretty well. Second things started derailing. Not sure if him or those political parties around him. Second term he started pulling away from PDI-P.
 
Which is not necessarily a bad thing considering what Megawati has done and what her daughter might do.

Suharto’s daughter Titi is back in the game again. “We never divorced!” And that doesn’t promise a lot of good, now we can wait for Tommy. And if I see he (still) has very good relationships with people like Ahmad Dhani and even Raffi Ahmad (minister of Sports?). 😓
 
jstar said:
www.newmandala.org

Prabowo and his anti-Chinese past? - New Mandala

Indonesian guest writer Tonny examines Prabowo Subianto's ideological links to Indonesia's deadly race riots of May 1998.
www.newmandala.org www.newmandala.org

The question is how much a person can or would change over 10-15 years
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I believe quite a lot ... but

Age can soften or harden, but experience tends to add a dose of reality to the mix.
We have to remember he was never actually convicted of anything. That doesn't mean he didn't do what his accusers say, just they have never managed to prove it.
This is the political world, so proof isn't required to make points
 
John indonesia said:
They do have a history of that.
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I see fastpitch17 hit a dislike for my above.
Why?

It's a serious question as the CIA does have a history of removing elected governments and dictators. The first that comes to mind is Iran, but there have been others including the CIA bombings in Indonesia when they tried to remove Sukarno.

Given this is undisputed history and I have expressed no political interest either way, why would you dislike it?

I try not to take sides in any political mess, but I do like to explore political situations and history, then try to guess the future from it. I am of the opinion the CIA is actively trying to interfere in Indonesia's democracy at the moment so, in answer to your point, Yes, they might well try.

That isn't to express any political point, support or attack any given country, just an opinion based on what I know from today and all our yesterdays.
 
John indonesia said:
I see fastpitch17 hit a dislike for my above.
Why?

It's a serious question as the CIA does have a history of removing elected governments and dictators. The first that comes to mind is Iran, but there have been others including the CIA bombings in Indonesia when they tried to remove Sukarno.

Given this is undisputed history and I have expressed no political interest either way, why would you dislike it?

I try not to take sides in any political mess, but I do like to explore political situations and history, then try to guess the future from it. I am of the opinion the CIA is actively trying to interfere in Indonesia's democracy at the moment so, in answer to your point, Yes, they might well try.

That isn't to express any political point, support or attack any given country, just an opinion based on what I know from today and all our yesterdays.
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Dislike because I would prefer to deal with facts and proof. Not maybes, ifs, perhaps, or rumors. Got proof, link to it from a reputable source.
 
fastpitch17 said:
Dislike because I would prefer to deal with facts and proof. Not maybes, ifs, perhaps, or rumors. Got proof, link to it from a reputable source.
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Thank you for your post. Will the CIA be acceptable?



Pilot Allen Pope shot down, CIA program in Indonesia exposed. - CIA

www.cia.gov www.cia.gov

Given you have the information I alluded to directly from the CIA, perhaps you would be kind enough to remove the 'dislike'.
 
John indonesia said:
Thank you for your post. Will the CIA be acceptable?



Pilot Allen Pope shot down, CIA program in Indonesia exposed. - CIA

www.cia.gov www.cia.gov

Given you have the information I alluded to directly from the CIA, perhaps you would be kind enough to remove the 'dislike'.
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Yep, Allan Pope was following orders during a war. In the end he became a valuable asset for Sukarno to get weapons and planes from the US.

The others are PDF files. I won't open them on my phone so will wait until I get home. I don't trust links because someone might slip some undesirable things in them. Have more protection at home.
 
Hm, it's surely debatable if and why the CIA would currently plan something in Indonesia. For that I cannot talk about, since I lack knowledge on the topic.
But what the CIA did in various events in the past is well documented and shouldn't be up for a "conspiracy theory" debate, since by now there are enough, even official, sources to proof certain past involvements of the CIA world wide. Of course that still doesn't mean it will be repeated for the public in the news or by all western politicians daily.😅
 
MamangDudul said:
Hm, it's surely debatable if and why the CIA would currently plan something in Indonesia. For that I cannot talk about, since I lack knowledge on the topic.
But what the CIA did in various events in the past is well documented and shouldn't be up for a "conspiracy theory" debate, since by now there are enough, even official, sources to proof certain past involvements of the CIA world wide. Of course that still doesn't mean it will be repeated for the public in the news or by all western politicians daily.😅
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The role of the CIA has been to develop and preserve American interests both commercially and for security. China's emergence as a forceful player on the world stage would see the CIA intriguing throughout South East Asia to try and limit the competitiveness of China. No place too large or too small for the CIA not to have working strategies in this area as elsewhere in the world to advance those commercial and security interests.
1717062244943.png
 
snpark said:
Time for a mass debate over the CIA
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Personally I don't really care about a debate, even if it doesn't seem that way haha. The frontlines seem to be clear anyway. Sometimes I just get triggered as I said before, when it seems like people want to throw things like CIA involvements or the influence of the USA in one pot with stupid BS like flat earth and lizard people who disguise as our world leaders hahaha. I mean yeah, I don't know who it does good to to not acknowledge stuff that has been proven since forever. Only because the western world doesn't have an interest in repeating these facts as often as they repeat that China and Russia are the worst in the universe. But sure, JFK was killed by the magic bullet, the CIA is only there to protect the whole world and all US wars were gods will to bring democracy all over the world and to replace Talibans with Talibans. Anyways...i don't want a debate.
🤣🤣
 
snpark said:
Time for a mass debate over the CIA
Click to expand...
As a dominant power the US and CIA properly get a great deal of attention but the reality is that most countries have similar philosophies and are prepared to engage in covert activities the extent of which may be determined by how much money can be available.
1717068932242.png
 
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