Indonesian nurses & caregivers as expats in Europe

[Samoerai]

Translated article Dutch newspaper from the east of the country:


If you can't find healthcare personnel anywhere, you have to do something. The need is now so high that four care organizations are enlisting the help of 75 healthcare students from Indonesia.

Much is already being done to tackle the acute staff shortage in healthcare, but it is not enough. The shortage continues to increase everywhere. And that will not change in the coming years, not even in this region. Something must be done now.

The care organizations are therefore employing 75 students from Indonesia. These young people in training can then start working in eastern Dutch cities during their studies. A win-win situation, that is the expectation.

This approach is new for the cooperative of which these four healthcare organizations belong. And that also applies to this region, says Lex Smetsers, chairman of the board of directors of the cooperative. “However, many positive experiences are already known nationwide.” For example, Smetsers was the first in the Netherlands to gain experience with the deployment of Indonesian students in healthcare. Back then at a care organization in the province Drenthe. And that went so well that they now also dare to do it here in the province Twente and the region Achterhoek.

This plan raises several questions. What about the language, for example? According to Lex Smetsers, this has been thought through. “The students who come here have had intensive training in the Dutch language and culture for several months.” The recruitment and selection is done in Indonesia by the organization Yomema. “Part of the selection are various tests to ensure that the basic knowledge of the students meets the requirements that we set here, and to be as sure as possible that a student can take such a big step.” Once here, the students start at the bottom. “They first start working as a starting care employee at the helping level. Then as a caretaker for individual health care. And in the meantime they are studying to become a nurse at a higher vocational level.”

And why Indonesia? Because, according to the cooperative, there is a surplus of healthcare workers there. "Many of them are therefore without a job, while they can be of great importance in the Netherlands." The students come to the Netherlands on the basis of a study residence permit. While they follow their training as a nursing professional here, they can be employed for about four years at the care centers. Then they can return to Indonesia with this new experience and gained knowledge. The training is paid for by the healthcare organizations themselves. Smetsers: “As is often the case with other students for the training of a certified nurse on bachelor level.”

According to Smetsers, this approach is more than fixing a temporary emergency. The cooperative continues to focus on new healthcare technologies and the training of lateral entrants and people with distanced from the labor market. “But we also see added value in the use of migrant labor.”


View attachment 3045

I just read this in the newspaper ... did not know it was so difficult ..

"Employers in The Netherlands who want to bring professionals such as welders, mechanics or nurses to the Netherlands depend on a work permit. Whether they get that permit is determined by the UWV (like Manpower in Indonesia). Companies must first demonstrate that, despite all their efforts, they have not been able to find staff in the Netherlands. They then have to prove that it also failed within the EU.

It sometimes results in a file of up to 300 pages and can easily take half a year, says CEO Frank van Gool of OTTO Holding. His employment agency has now brought about 35 nurses from the Philippines to the Netherlands. They were introduced to our way of working in advance, received Dutch language lessons and then went to work at three regional hospitals. Also in Indonesia - where there is a surplus of healthcare personnel, just like in the Philippines - OTTO prepares nurses."

Frank van Gool called on the cabinet to come up with a simple scheme that allows companies to attract skilled workers from outside Europe.

 

[harryopal1]

I remember many years ago, hundreds of Indonesian nurses were "expelled" from the Netherlands due to "incompetence"?

Incidentally, our company driver is applying to work in Australia as a truck driver or heavy equipment operator in the mining industry. He is paying around a hundred million rupiah to get the job. I don't know if the money goes to the recruiter or employment agency. Legal or not, I don't know either. But I'm surprised that Australia is hiring workers from Indonesia. Let's see if he is departing in a month or two.

Where there are work opportunities there are also scam opportunities and people without good English and reliant on assistance are prime targets. There was a Chinese woman in Australia recently offering people already working there transition for a considerable fee to obtain permanent residence. Monies paid but no visa. Quite a lot of poor buggers got scammed by her.

 

[centurion]

Germany has simplified the procedures for foreign nurses and caregivers, including Indonesian-their medical education is considered compatible with the German one.

The Netherlands has a long time to go.

 

[Samoerai]

Where there are work opportunities there are also scam opportunities and people without good English and reliant on assistance are prime targets. There was a Chinese woman in Australia recently offering people already working there transition for a considerable fee to obtain permanent residence. Monies paid but no visa. Quite a lot of poor buggers got scammed by her.

I think if a worker wants to move to Australia for work, better move to Kalimantan. They are building a new "ibu kota" over there. Plenty of opportunities.

IKN - Ibu Kota Negara

Menuju visi Indonesia 2045, Kota Dunia Untuk Semua

www.ikn.go.id

 

[pantaiema]

I just read this in the newspaper ... did not know it was so difficult ..

"Employers in The Netherlands who want to bring professionals such as welders, mechanics or nurses to the Netherlands depend on a work permit. Whether they get that permit is determined by the UWV (like Manpower in Indonesia). Companies must first demonstrate that, despite all their efforts, they have not been able to find staff in the Netherlands. They then have to prove that it also failed within the EU.

It sometimes results in a file of up to 300 pages and can easily take half a year, says CEO Frank van Gool of OTTO Holding. His employment agency has now brought about 35 nurses from the Philippines to the Netherlands. They were introduced to our way of working in advance, received Dutch language lessons and then went to work at three regional hospitals. Also in Indonesia - where there is a surplus of healthcare personnel, just like in the Philippines - OTTO prepares nurses."

Frank van Gool called on the cabinet to come up with a simple scheme that allows companies to attract skilled workers from outside Europe.

This is standard procedure anywhere in the world. Employers will need to do what is the so called, the Resident Labour Market Test (RLMT). The exception is for the job in the shortage occupations list, seasonal workers such as agricultural workers, fruit pickers on certain season, highly skilled workers in certain sectors of employment. Every government will typically publish an updated list each year, where there are shortage of people could fill a certain job. Indonesian government also applies RLMT. That is why the foreign employees in Indonesia will need to get a work permit where the RLMT principles will be scrutinised by the manpower department. On the other end the Indonesian government will also need to protect their citizens working abroad so they do not fall into the hand of criminals, human traffickers.

These are examples of RLMT what is needed to be included in the EU/EEA

• "Advertising the position: The employer must advertise the position for a minimum of 28 days in at least two places that are listed in the UK Visas and Immigration (UKVI) guidance. The advertisement must include the job title, job description, salary, skills and qualifications required, location of employment, and closing date for applications.
• Considering applications: The employer must consider all applications received for the position, even if they are not from settled workers. The employer must keep a record of all applications received and the reasons why they were not successful.
• Making a decision: The employer must decide whether there are any suitable settled workers available to fill the role. If there are, the employer cannot sponsor a non-EEA national for the role. If there are no suitable settled workers available, the employer can sponsor a non-EEA national for the role"

Typically nurses are included in the shortage occupational list, so no RLMT is required. But nursing is a highly regulated areas, so for employers want to recruit the workers from developing countries, they will also need to address how they will train the new employees to meet that standard.

In some countries where there is a severe shortage such as nurses, carer they might simplify/compromise the procedure, but it is still difficult in highly regulated occupation. In DE Indonesian nurses and carers qualification is recognised, but it is not that simple. There are also other requirement

They must be able to speak German fluently in a healthcare setting.​

They will need to register with the Chamber of Nurses in their state of residence.​

The will need to complete a 6-month internship in order to obtain a full nursing license.​

How many Indonesian nurses, carer do you think could speak German in a healthcare setting meeting professional requirement to register to the Chamber of Nurses, straight away directly from Indonesia without further training ??

 

[centurion]

This is standard procedure anywhere in the world. Employers will need to do what is the so called, the Resident Labour Market Test (RLMT). The exception is for the job in the shortage occupations list, seasonal workers such as agricultural workers on certain season, highly skilled workers in certain sectors of employment. Every government will typically publish an updated list each year, where there are shortage of people could fill a certain job. Indonesian government also applies RLMT. That is why the foreign employees in Indonesia will need to get a work permit where the RLMT principles will be scrutinised by the manpower department. On the other end the Indonesian government will also need to protect their citizens working abroad so they do not fall into the hand of criminals, human traffickers.

These are examples of RLMT what is needed to be included in the EU/EEA

• "Advertising the position: The employer must advertise the position for a minimum of 28 days in at least two places that are listed in the UK Visas and Immigration (UKVI) guidance. The advertisement must include the job title, job description, salary, skills and qualifications required, location of employment, and closing date for applications.
• Considering applications: The employer must consider all applications received for the position, even if they are not from settled workers. The employer must keep a record of all applications received and the reasons why they were not successful.
• Making a decision: The employer must decide whether there are any suitable settled workers available to fill the role. If there are, the employer cannot sponsor a non-EEA national for the role. If there are no suitable settled workers available, the employer can sponsor a non-EEA national for the role"

Typically nurses, fruit pickers, seasonal agricultural workers, highly skilled workers in certain sectors of employment are included in the shortage occupational list, so no RLMT is needed. In term of nurses, health care profession it is even, more difficult as it is highly regulated areas, so for employers want to recruit the workers from developing countries, they will also need to address how they will train the new employer to meet that standard.

In some countries where there is a severe shortage such as nurses, carer they might simplify/compromise the procedure, but it is still difficult in highly regulated occupation. In DE Indonesian nurses and carers qualification is recognised, but it is not that simple. There are also other requirement

They must be able to speak German fluently in a healthcare setting.​

They will need to register with the Chamber of Nurses in their state of residence.​

The will need to complete a 6-month internship in order to obtain a full nursing license.​

How many Indonesian nurses, carer do you think could speak German in a healthcare setting meeting professional requirement to register to the Chamber of Nurses, straight away directly from Indonesia without further training ??

For Germany, the recruitment is done while the prospective caregivers are offshore, via online interviews. If initially accepted, at a minimum, they have to have an A2 German language level and B1 when they come to Germany. Training for A1/A2 is at Goethe Institute in Jakarta.

Upon arrival, their skills are assessed, and the employer provides additional training, depending on the existing skill level. The work contract is granted before the foreign worker departs for Germany.

The work contract, rights, and obligations, are the same as for German citizens.

 

[Samoerai]

This is standard procedure anywhere in the world. Employers will need to do what is the so called, the Resident Labour Market Test (RLMT). The exception is for the job in the shortage occupations list, seasonal workers such as agricultural workers on certain season, highly skilled workers in certain sectors of employment. Every government will typically publish an updated list each year, where there are shortage of people could fill a certain job. Indonesian government also applies RLMT. That is why the foreign employees in Indonesia will need to get a work permit where the RLMT principles will be scrutinised by the manpower department. On the other end the Indonesian government will also need to protect their citizens working abroad so they do not fall into the hand of criminals, human traffickers.

These are examples of RLMT what is needed to be included in the EU/EEA

• "Advertising the position: The employer must advertise the position for a minimum of 28 days in at least two places that are listed in the UK Visas and Immigration (UKVI) guidance. The advertisement must include the job title, job description, salary, skills and qualifications required, location of employment, and closing date for applications.
• Considering applications: The employer must consider all applications received for the position, even if they are not from settled workers. The employer must keep a record of all applications received and the reasons why they were not successful.
• Making a decision: The employer must decide whether there are any suitable settled workers available to fill the role. If there are, the employer cannot sponsor a non-EEA national for the role. If there are no suitable settled workers available, the employer can sponsor a non-EEA national for the role"

Typically nurses, fruit pickers, seasonal agricultural workers, highly skilled workers in certain sectors of employment are included in the shortage occupational list, so no RLMT is needed. In term of nurses, health care profession it is even, more difficult as it is highly regulated areas, so for employers want to recruit the workers from developing countries, they will also need to address how they will train the new employer to meet that standard.

In some countries where there is a severe shortage such as nurses, carer they might simplify/compromise the procedure, but it is still difficult in highly regulated occupation. In DE Indonesian nurses and carers qualification is recognised, but it is not that simple. There are also other requirement

They must be able to speak German fluently in a healthcare setting.​

They will need to register with the Chamber of Nurses in their state of residence.​

The will need to complete a 6-month internship in order to obtain a full nursing license.​

How many Indonesian nurses, carer do you think could speak German in a healthcare setting meeting professional requirement to register to the Chamber of Nurses, straight away directly from Indonesia without further training ??

Deutsch zu lernen und zu sprechen ist schwieriger als Niederländisch.

I used to speak German rather good, but after 40 years not speaking the language .. I cannot anymore.

It would be very hard for those indonedians to learn German with all the "dritter und vierter Fall" grammar rules. Not to mention the sexe of words "der, die das". Wow, that will make them "pusing" ...

 

[centurion]

It would be very hard for those indonedians to learn German with all the "dritter und vierter Fall" grammar rules. Not to mention the sexe of words "der, die das". Wow, that will make them "pusing" ...

Are Indonesians less intelligent? Every Indonesian is at least bilingual, and many Indonesians study in Germany.

 

[Samoerai]

Deutsch zu lernen und zu sprechen ist schwieriger als Niederländisch.

I used to speak German rather good, but after 40 years not speaking the language .. I cannot anymore.

It would be very hard for those indonedians to learn German with all the "dritter und vierter Fall" grammar rules. Not to mention the sexe of words "der, die das". Wow, that will make them "pusing" ...

Huh, I didnot say that .. it will be hard for anybody .. if one is not used to grammar rules like "declinations of nouns" and "conjugation of verbs" and the "differences in verb tenses". It will take a long time for anybody to master that.

That's why in my opinion, languages without those formentioned grammar rules are easier to master, like Indonesian and Mandarin. You only have to learn the words. And Dutch would also be easier (compared to German) to master because in Dutch there is no declanation of nouns. Also it would be okay to talk English in Holland, nobody minds.

 

[pantaiema]

Huh, I didnot say that .. it will be hard for anybody .. if one is not used to grammar rules like "declinations of nouns" and "conjugation of verbs" and the "differences in verb tenses". It will take a long time for anybody to master that.

That's why in my opinion languages without those for mentioned grammar rules are easier to master, like Indonesian and Mandarin. You only have learn the words. And Dutch would also be easier (compared to German) to master because in Dutch there is no declamation of nouns. Also it would be okay to talk English in Holland, nobody minds.

I never learn Dutch but I speak German pretty well. When I am travelling to the Netherlands, I could understand what other people are saying in Dutch at conversational level. It seems to me there are quite reasonable number of Dutch words are quite similar to German words.

 

[Samoerai]

I never learn Dutch but I speak German pretty well. When I am travelling to the Netherlands, I could understand what other people are saying in Dutch at conversational level. It seems to me there are quite reasonable number of Dutch words are quite similar to German words.

Most of the Dutch people understand German, but not all. Speaking German is more of a challenge.

 

[Balifrog]

German and French are difficult for grammar. And the accents.
English easier.
Indonesian, Thai etc... easier because very little grammatical rules.

 

[fastpitch17]

We have a niece that learned German in high school here, attended UNI in Germany, now works at the German Embassy in Jakarta. A lot of Indonesians learn to speak German.

I know of a friend's son that speaks German and is currently undertaking culinary studies in Germany. His mother is an English teacher and he can also speak that.

 

[Samoerai]

German and French are difficult for grammar. And the accents.
English easier.
Indonesian, Thai etc... easier because very little grammatical rules.

And on top of the grammar ... the 'feminine and masculine nouns' in French, German and Dutch, ...

French Makes No Sense: Hôpital

youtube.com

And conjugation of verbs in French. This guy Loic shows how difficult this is in French
Conjugation of verbs in English is rather simple compared to French, Spanish, German, ...

French Makes No Sense: Conjugation

youtube.com

French and Spanish Make No Sense: Today

Don't we just love them...

youtube.com

Languages Make No Sense: French Toast

youtube.com

 

[harryopal1]

"... easier to master, like Indonesian and Mandarin. You only have to learn the words. ...."

With Mandarin you have to learn the "song" that goes with each word. And with Thai the tonal process is not without complications. One word, I think it is "mai" has five different meanings depending upon the tone. Living in Singapore I tried very hard to get to ask for "tea with milk and no sugar". Staggered when one day a fellow actually understood me. But then Singapore Mandarin has different tonal qualities to mainland China or Taiwan. Best way to learn is to be three years old and playing with local kids. Bit hard to do that when one is 84.

 

[Samoerai]

With Mandarin you have to learn the "song" that goes with each word. And with Thai the tonal process is not without complications. One word, I think it is "mai" has five different meanings depending upon the tone. Living in Singapore I tried very hard to get to ask for "tea with milk and no sugar". Staggered when one day a fellow actually understood me. But then Singapore Mandarin has different tonal qualities to mainland China or Taiwan. Best way to learn is to be three years old and playing with local kids. Bit hard to do that when one is 84.

Here is an easy one in Mandarin ... if you know the word 'dog' in bahasa Indonesia.

Be quiet in Chinese #mandarin #modernchinese #learn #learnchinese #chineselanguage

youtube.com

 

[Samoerai]

With Mandarin you have to learn the "song" that goes with each word. And with Thai the tonal process is not without complications. One word, I think it is "mai" has five different meanings depending upon the tone. Living in Singapore I tried very hard to get to ask for "tea with milk and no sugar". Staggered when one day a fellow actually understood me. But then Singapore Mandarin has different tonal qualities to mainland China or Taiwan. Best way to learn is to be three years old and playing with local kids. Bit hard to do that when one is 84.

Here is 'ice tea' in Mandarin and bahasa Indonesia ...

Learn Bahasa Indonesia

youtube.com

And actually in it's not 'es teh' ... but 'teh es' if you want 'a lot of tea with ice'

 

[harryopal1]

Here is 'ice tea' in Mandarin and bahasa Indonesia ...

Learn Bahasa Indonesia

youtube.com

And actually in it's not 'es teh' ... but 'teh es' if you want 'a lot of tea with ice'

Terima kasih. Not ice tea just tea with milk. and not half a cup full of condensed milk, and no sugar. Although these days a cup of tea in Singapore would probably be about $3. In the Chinese cafes which I used to frequent it cost about 30 cents and they would bring tea in chipped cups and the saucer half full with slopped tea carried from the kitchen.

 

[flavus]

I just read this in the newspaper ... did not know it was so difficult ..

"Employers in The Netherlands who want to bring professionals such as welders, mechanics or nurses to the Netherlands depend on a work permit. Whether they get that permit is determined by the UWV (like Manpower in Indonesia). Companies must first demonstrate that, despite all their efforts, they have not been able to find staff in the Netherlands. They then have to prove that it also failed within the EU.

It sometimes results in a file of up to 300 pages and can easily take half a year, says CEO Frank van Gool of OTTO Holding. His employment agency has now brought about 35 nurses from the Philippines to the Netherlands. They were introduced to our way of working in advance, received Dutch language lessons and then went to work at three regional hospitals. Also in Indonesia - where there is a surplus of healthcare personnel, just like in the Philippines - OTTO prepares nurses."

Frank van Gool called on the cabinet to come up with a simple scheme that allows companies to attract skilled workers from outside Europe.

that sounds like the procedure in the US, yeah. Doubly so, in the US employers have to jump through that hoops again sponsoring for permanent residency -- for someone who almost always is already working under a work visa!

 

[Samoerai]

I just read this in the newspaper ... did not know it was so difficult ..

"Employers in The Netherlands who want to bring professionals such as welders, mechanics or nurses to the Netherlands depend on a work permit. Whether they get that permit is determined by the UWV (like Manpower in Indonesia). Companies must first demonstrate that, despite all their efforts, they have not been able to find staff in the Netherlands. They then have to prove that it also failed within the EU.

It sometimes results in a file of up to 300 pages and can easily take half a year, says CEO Frank van Gool of OTTO Holding. His employment agency has now brought about 35 nurses from the Philippines to the Netherlands. They were introduced to our way of working in advance, received Dutch language lessons and then went to work at three regional hospitals. Also in Indonesia - where there is a surplus of healthcare personnel, just like in the Philippines - OTTO prepares nurses."

Frank van Gool called on the cabinet to come up with a simple scheme that allows companies to attract skilled workers from outside Europe.

Hmm, corruption in The Netherlands ...


Indonesian nurses are squeezed here: 'I feel ripped off', 20 jul 2023
Experienced Indonesian nurses are brought to the Netherlands under false pretenses to relieve the care here. They have to work much more than agreed and are not trained as promised, according to research by NU.nl. The Labor Inspectorate and the IND have now also thrown themselves into the matter.
"We are overworked, exploited and left to our own devices here." That is what Indonesian nurses say who work in the Netherlands via AVANS+ (HBO of applied science) and partner company Your Medical Matchmaker (Yomema) and at the same time obtain their Dutch HBO nursing diploma. But many promises are not kept.

The students do not work 16 but up to 40 hours a week. But because 24 hours are written down as internship hours, they don't get paid for it. And instead of being trained for management positions in a hospital, the Indonesians are only concerned with the implementation of elderly and home care.

Students say that of the promised 1,000 euros net per month, after housing costs and travel expenses, there is not enough to live on. And nothing is done with their complaints.

Once in the Netherlands, Ika and her fellow students were not allowed to choose where they wanted to work and do an internship. "While we were promised that. The only options were home care or the nursing home," she says. "But many of the nurses enrolled in this program want to work in the hospital. That's where they have the most experience." In addition, she was only allowed to care for the elderly, unlike in a normal nursing course at higher vocational education. "I didn't learn anything new."

Ika tells her story because she wants to warn nurses in Indonesia. Together with a number of other students, she told her story to the labor inspectorate. When Yomema got wind of this, the company asked the Indonesians to give a positive feedback to the labor inspectorate. "But I don't wish that on them. I want this to end with us."

Ika's wish has come true for the time being: the IND (read: Immigration) will not grant student visas for new arrivals for the time being, the organization informs the newspaper. At least not as long as the Labor Inspectorate investigates such work-study programmes. She reports that new initiatives such as these are often investigated, but that in this case she also received specific signals of abuse. The Inspectorate expects to be able to announce the results after the summer.

Arbeidsinspectie onderzoekt 'oneerlijke' behandeling Indonesische studenten

Twee studenten zeggen tegen RTV Drenthe dat ze fysiek en mentaal uitgeput zijn en daarom niet goed kunnen presteren tijdens hun stage.

nos.nl