How do you guys invest?

[pantaiema]

Well each to their own
I never heard of anyone losing money from a bank
But plenty of people stung by crypto etc
My point was try reaching the Helpdesk for a digital bank that's gone tits up.
Anyway everyone has their own way
Very very rare for an actual bank to go bankrupt in a western country.

Well, It will depend on whether the banks are joining the Government Guaranteed compensation scheme. Also It will depend on the amount of money in the bank.

In Indonesia there is LPS (Lembaga Penjamin Simpanan) up to IDR2b per customer
In the UK there is FSCS (Financial Services Compensation Scheme) up to £85k per customer on the same banking group.

Not all banks belongs to these schemes. Also even they belong to the Government Guaranteed compensation scheme there is limit they could guarantee, not all. Above that limit there is no guarantee from the government that you will get your money back.
There are few banks building societies collapses in the western countries.
These are the list of failed banks

List Of Failed Banks: 2009-2024 | Bankrate

The U.S. typically sees a few bank failures each year, but years like 2022, 2021 and 2018 when there were none are rare.

www.bankrate.com

The fact that some of these banks are later acquired by other banks interested in their customer basis does not mean you will get your money back. You will depend on their good will and whether there are still money left to be distributed.

 

[pantaiema]

If. If my uncle had boobs he would be my auntie, Stephen.

I have had first hand experience (my father and uncle ) with the situation where the good housefather investor who bought stock in Fortis bank for decades since “it could never fail”, got screwed by his own (Belgian and Dutch) government and lost practically all his savings.

The government guaranteed compensation scheme is only for Cash Deposit. It does not cover stocks and shares or other type of investments / assets. That is the risk people need to take into consideration when investing in assets.

If your shares are registered directly in your name, you are a share-owner of record. If your shares are held in a brokerage account or bank, trust, or other nominee, you are considered the “beneficial owner” of those shares. As a share owner of record, you could still easily claim ownership of those shares as long as the companies are still trading in the stock markets.

If your money are held in the brokerage account or bank, trust, or other nominee if these institutions collapse you could potentially lose all of your assets.

 

[jstar]

That’s quite a list. And US banks only I guess.

It was in the 2008/2009 crisis when Fortis (the oldest and largest bank & insurer in Belgium which was a merger of Generale and ASLK) took over the Dutch ABN-AMRO. For several reasons the whole thing fell apart and the BENELUX governments had to interfere. Of course there was no local ‘LPS’ yet in place so it was also extremely risky for the customers of the bank.

And that always has been the focus; the customers of the bank. Which might be logical but in this case, Fortis was the investment of choice by anyone who had no idea about stocks and investing and who did not want to take any risk with their savings. As my father and uncle for instance. It was a standard advice at the time; “just buy Fortis, no large yield but also no risk”.

By the government taking over Fortis and selling the profitable parts to BNP Paribas the shareholders were screwed and ended up with a company which had virtually no value and which later became AGEAS which is an insurance company.

The Belgian and French governments also had to save the Dexia bank btw but that was done differently with less impact.

Fortis: Belgium acts to prevent financial group's collapse

Financial group seeks to reassure investors amid fears that it could become another credit crisis casualty

www.theguardian.com

 

[Balifrog]

Never forget that any country can seize your money / assets in any bank in their country.
Last example : US and EU banks seizing Russian oligarchs money. Nazy Germany seizing all accounts hold by Jews. But tomorrow it could be you, because for some reason somebody decides that you are in the "wrong" category.

Another example : the Cyprus bank crisis.....

Everything You Need to Know About the Cyprus Bank Disaster

Taxing insured bank deposits is the worst way to pay for the bailout.

www.theatlantic.com

2012–2013 Cypriot financial crisis - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And it's all legal as it is done by gouvernments who made the necessary laws !

 

[make_batik_great_again]

You’re right and it’s before them withholding tax (20%) also. So then it is 0,8 x (6% / 12) which results in a 0,4% (400.000 rupiah on a deposited 100 juta for instance) for one month only.


Yeah you get all this suitcase for free crap but some offer cash(back). I don’t see a problem with banks like this or an alternative as Jenius from BTPN, that belongs to Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corporation (SMBC), a large Japanese bank. They are recognized by BI so there’s LPS (with restrictions).

Yes, Jenius is quite good. My wife has an account there and she never had trouble. However, I was rejected because I only held a KITAS. They asked for Indonesian KTP.

About Seabank: I also heard of them by advertisement and went to their page some months ago. But I read there that you need a KTP to open an account. So, I assumed I would have the same difficulties as with Jenius. Could you open an account at Seabank and/or Jenius as a foreginer?

 

[jstar]

as a foreginer

Yep, that’s the everlasting issue. Obviously I have a KITAP and KTP and even NPWP but that doesn’t mean the banks automatically agree. In my case it was not a problem (knock on wood) but I’ve seen many cases where people were turned down by financial institutions and their internal procedures*. (And they blame others like Bank of Indonesia for imposing these rules which obviously is not true.)

People in these organizations are often focused on KTP. In quite some cases, including the purchase and registration of a car, I had to explain the concept and necessity of the NIK and that it was not the ‘stupid card’ that was important. The NIK I already had when still on KITAS of course. That was with the SKTT -so without a KTP- but at the time I was lucky that it looked a lot like a regular laminated KTP card.

* I guess there is a risk assessment a foreigner could be gone from one day to another. Esp. when in financial trouble.

 

[make_batik_great_again]

Yep, that’s the everlasting issue. Obviously I have a KITAP and KTP and even NPWP but that doesn’t mean the banks automatically agree. In my case it was not a problem (knock on wood) but I’ve seen many cases where people were turned down by financial institutions and their internal procedures*. (And they blame others like Bank of Indonesia for imposing these rules which obviously is not true.)

People in these organizations are often focused on KTP. In quite some cases, including the purchase and registration of a car, I had to explain the concept and necessity of the NIK and that it was not the ‘stupid card’ that was important. The NIK I already had when still on KITAS of course. That was with the SKTT -so without a KTP- but at the time I was lucky that it looked a lot like a regular laminated KTP card.

* I guess there is a risk assessment a foreigner could be gone from one day to another. Esp. when in financial trouble.

Yes, that could be the reason. Although that could also happen with a KITAP holder. I do not know why some financial institutions distinguish between KITAP/KITAS (KTP/SKTT) holder when deciding whether or not a foreigner is allowed to become one of their customers.

Anyway, with traditional banks like BCA or Danamon I never had a problem to get a bank account. Even on a KITAS. Also getting a NPWP was no problem. Only with those new, digital banks I had trouble opening a bank account or I was not able to open one. But if you ask 10 different foreigners here, you will probably hear 10 or more different stories and experience Sometimes it seems the policy or rules of financial institutions is not really synchronized and depends on your location or so.

 

[jstar]

Quite happy I stepped in again at a $120 level. I do plan to sell at $210-220 though.

 

[make_batik_great_again]

The stock market is starting to become very irritating again. Since the beginning of January you could have bought the biggest rubbish and still you would have earned money by that.

Also stocks like GameStop climbed from 16-17 USD to 23 USD in the past 4-5 weeks. It seems the greed and the ‚it will always go up, no matter what fundamentals say-mentality is back. Very worrying in my view.

Also worrying is the huge volume on 0DTE options. Also an indicator that the stock market is becoming more and more a casino instead of serious investing at the moment. I am very careful with new investments at the stock market at the moment.

 

[pantaiema]

The stock market is starting to become very irritating again. Since the beginning of January you could have bought the biggest rubbish and still you would have earned money by that.

Also stocks like GameStop climbed from 16-17 USD to 23 USD in the past 4-5 weeks. It seems the greed and the ‚it will always go up, no matter what fundamentals say-mentality is back. Very worrying in my view.

Also worrying is the huge volume on 0DTE options. Also an indicator that the stock market is becoming more and more a casino instead of serious investing at the moment. I am very careful with new investments at the stock market at the moment.

The stocks Like Game Stop (GME), AMC, BBBY are for trading, not investing. People are mainly playing expecting for the short Squeeze to happen. For some people who know how to analyse the short data, the Reward vs Risk is worthy as when short squeezed is triggered it could up 5x or even more in just a few days.

 

[make_batik_great_again]

The stocks Like Game Stop (GME), AMC, BBBY are for trading, not investing. People are mainly playing expecting for the short Squeeze to happen. For some people who know how to analyse the short data, the Reward vs Risk is worthy as when short squeezed is triggered it could up 5x or even more in just a few days.

Of course, GameStop and the other meme stocks are only for trading, not investing.

Still, it is a casino if you consider the mentality of many people who trade those stocks. Their may be some people who know how to analyze data regarding that and who earn money by trading those stocks but much more people burned their fingers. And that those stocks get more popular again shows that the optimism, the greed and irrationality is back at the stock market in general.

 

[pantaiema]

Of course, GameStop and the other meme stocks are only for trading, not investing.

Still, it is a casino if you consider the mentality of many people who trade those stocks. Their may be some people who know how to analyze data regarding that and who earn money by trading those stocks but much more people burned their fingers. And that those stocks get more popular again shows that the optimism, the greed and irrationality is back at the stock market in general.

Unless it is trading for future e.g future trading for commodities, etc, short-term trading is a zero sum game. When some people make money in trading there are people on the other end will lose money.

 

[yantiharun1]

The stock market is starting to become very irritating again. Since the beginning of January you could have bought the biggest rubbish and still you would have earned money by that.

Also stocks like GameStop climbed from 16-17 USD to 23 USD in the past 4-5 weeks. It seems the greed and the ‚it will always go up, no matter what fundamentals say-mentality is back. Very worrying in my view.

Also worrying is the huge volume on 0DTE options. Also an indicator that the stock market is becoming more and more a casino instead of serious investing at the moment. I am very careful with new investments at the stock market at the moment.

I was wondering how do you invest in the stock market if you reside in Indonesia? in my case, they told me that you have to be a US resident. I welcome any advice.

 

[snpark]

I was wondering how do you invest in the stock market if you reside in Indonesia? in my case, they told me that you have to be a US resident. I welcome any advice.

Just use an offshore brokerage
Or a VPN if it's with an app

 

[jstar]

I was wondering how do you invest in the stock market if you reside in Indonesia? in my case, they told me that you have to be a US resident. I welcome any advice.

You can open a brokerage account with a financial institution that has access to the U.S. stock markets. US based brokers often require residency (perhaps for tax reasons?). There are quite some international online traders that offer possibilities to any non US resident. Now many of these websites are blocked in Indonesia, just as the trading platforms for crypto currencies, so you’d need a VPN to use these.

If you want an example: Saxo. (I have no ties with them.) You will probably see the website is blocked. For those without a VPN wanting to have a look anyway, use the app 1.1.1.1 by Cloudflare.

 

[jstar]

Talking about brokerage firms, you have to be conscious about which one you choose, not only from a cost perspective of course (duh!) but also the countries they support.

An example from a well known Dutch company; you can see what the consequences are if you move to a country as Indonesia:

So then you need to sell your current positions and open a new account.

 

[yantiharun1]

You can open a brokerage account with a financial institution that has access to the U.S. stock markets. US based brokers often require residency (perhaps for tax reasons?). There are quite some international online traders that offer possibilities to any non US resident. Now many of these websites are blocked in Indonesia, just as the trading platforms for crypto currencies, so you’d need a VPN to use these.

If you want an example: Saxo. (I have no ties with them.) You will probably see the website is blocked. For those without a VPN wanting to have a look anyway, use the app 1.1.1.1 by Cloudflare.

Thank you for the response. Do you have suggestions for any international online traders that offer the possibilities to non-US resident?

 

[pantaiema]

Thank you for the response. Do you have suggestions for any international online traders that offer the possibilities to non-US resident?

You could try this
These are from Indonesian perspective here.

I do not know these guys but at least they provided a useful information to start with. I personally know eToro, IBKR Interactive Brokers. I also heard that Charles Scwab is aso available in Indonesia. Not a recommendation, so you will need to do your own research.
Etoro used to be very popular and was also available in Indonesia. But I heard they are no longer offer account in Indonesia. The reason for that is because it is very low cost for trading, buy and Sell comparable to Robinhood, WeBull. But Robinhood, WeBull have never been available in Indonesia.
When choosing a broker and/or platform for trading,

• Will you use that just for investment to buy an International stocks such as Google, Amazon, Apple, Tesla etc or ETFs such as S&P500, FTSE100, QQQ as investment or you also want to use it for trading.
• Do you want to invest on other assets such as comodities, oil, precious metal, Cryptos, etc
• It is not just about whether you could open it in Indonesia (certainy via VPN to access it) but it is also about the cost of having those platform/brokers. Remember in majority of cases yu will need to pay platform/brokers fees to amintain your account, there is also a spread between buy/sell, fees to buy/sell and currency exchange fees.
• If also for trading what you are planning to trade, Stocks, Future, CFD, options, etc

Spend sometimes with research and Due diligence and make decision what is the best for you.
If you just starting, avoid trading before you start how to climb the rope. You could start with investing in indices, ETFs such as S&P500, FTSE100, DJIA, Nasdaq 100, etc.

 

[yantiharun1]

You could try this
These are from Indonesian perspective here.

I do not know these guys but at least they provided a useful information to start with. I personally know eToro, IBKR Interactive Brokers. I also heard that Charles Scwab is aso available in Indonesia. Not a recommendation, so you will need to do your own research.
Etoro used to be very popular and was also available in Indonesia. But I heard they are no longer offer account in Indonesia. The reason for that is because it is very low cost for trading, buy and Sell comparable to Robinhood, WeBull. But Robinhood, WeBull have never been available in Indonesia.
When choosing a broker and/or platform for trading,

• Will you use that just for investment to buy an International stocks such as Google, Amazon, Apple, Tesla etc or ETFs such as S&P500, FTSE100, QQQ as investment or you also want to use it for trading.
• Do you want to invest on other assets such as comodities, oil, precious metal, Cryptos, etc
• It is not just about whether you could open it in Indonesia (certainy via VPN to access it) but it is also about the cost of having those platform/brokers. Remember in majority of cases yu will need to pay platform/brokers fees to amintain your account, there is also a spread between buy/sell, fees to buy/sell and currency exchange fees.
• If also for trading what you are planning to trade, Stocks, Future, CFD, options, etc

Spend sometimes with research and Due diligence and make decision what is the best for you.
If you just starting, avoid trading before you start how to climb the rope. You could start with investing in indices, ETFs such as S&P500, FTSE100, DJIA, Nasdaq 100, etc.

Thank you so much for the information you provided, it's very helpful. I am not very familiar with trading. I've been doing some investment with ETFs such as S&P500, DJIA, Nasdaq 100; but I certainly will do more research before moving into trading with international stocks.

 

[make_batik_great_again]

Thank you so much for the information you provided, it's very helpful. I am not very familiar with trading. I've been doing some investment with ETFs such as S&P500, DJIA, Nasdaq 100; but I certainly will do more research before moving into trading with international stocks.

I think you already received some good advice here. Maybe one further point to mention regarding choosing your bank/broker:

If you receive dividends from companies from the US, it is probably wise to look for a broker that is a Qualified Intermediary. That usually means that they will derive only 15% (instead of 30%) withholding taxes on US dividends if the double tax treaty with the country that you are a tax person in allows the reduced rate of 15% (which should be the case with Indonesia). The broker will probably ask you to fill out and send the W-8BEN formular then. Also check or ask if they take fees for this process.

Otherwise, you could probably also claim the withholding taxes that you paid too much from the US. But as far as I know you would need to file a tax declaration in the US then. Probably time consuming, maybe also not cheap. Probably better to look for a Qualified Intermediary in this case.

All that I wrote is of course no tax consultation...just what I researched so far without gurantee that all of that is correct.